I am a pet advocate - therefore I generally support pet stores. Of course, they're great places to purchase toys, treats, food - even winter garments and stylish holiday sweaters.
However, pet stores are not such a great place to purchase puppies or kittens.. . arguably the last place you want to get a puppy or kitten - unless you support puppy mills.
What prompts my piece is an editorial that appeared in pet age magazine, authored by longtime editor Karen McLeod.
McLeod writes, "Two years ago, we warned you that pet sales and puppy sales, in particular were under unprecedented attack. today, we are sorry to say that the situation is even worse. Measures to ban retail sales are not just coming faster, they're succeeding more often. Thirteen localities in either states have passed retail pet sale bands, and three have done so in just the last six months."
She continues in her piece, blaming well funded national animal welfare groups for the pet sales bans. She continues, "The trouble is, these restrictive bans won't just cripples stores that sell animals. They will cripple all pet retail outlets and vendors who supply them. After all it's pretty hard to sell kibble and collars to someone who can't get the dog he wants, or pellets and filters to someone who doesn't have fish."
She adds, "We must stand up on behalf of responsible pet owners as well as the right to sell live animals."
I DISAGREE - Fact is responsible owners should never purchase a dog or a cat from a pet store. (I am not talking about stores who work with local shelters and rescues, placing those animals up for adoption).
Let me start with some reasons why buying a puppy or adult dog, or kitten or adult cat from a pet store is absolutely not a good idea:
- I don't personally know of a responsible breeder who sells to pet stores. To be clear - not only am I not against breeders, I stand with the good ones. There's value in having a pedigree dog or cat, and a well bred pet if that's what you desire. There's most certainly also value in a shelter animal, and truly saving a life.
By definition responsible breeders are discerning about who they sell their animals to. Responsible breeders carefully socialize their animals, and do the best they can to prevent disease transmission. By selling puppies or kittens to a pet stores "breeders" lose all control. That is hardly being responsible. Responsible breeders do not sell to pet stores any more than responsible pet owners should purchase from pet stores.
Most important: Pet stores sell to whoever has a credit card that works, not to the right family for that pet.
- So now you know dogs and cats sold at pet stores are not from responsible breeders - then where are they from? The overwhelming majority are from puppy mills (these facilities are horrible breeding factories, and all should be closed down) and commercial breeders (large scale facilities, which may be clean and pristine, and animals vet checked - but still are they socialized? Is this the right way to breed dogs and cats?)
- What are you buying? There's no way to determine what the animal really is. So, the claim might be "Shih Tzu," for example, when in fact it's a mix of a really poor representative of what a Shih-Tzu is paired with a mix that somehow resembles a Shih Tzu. Isn't that fraud when you pay for one thing but it's really another? This happens all the time at pet stores.
- There's no data to demonstrate the health of dogs or cats sold out of pet stores is any worse than those sold through responsible breeders, or adopted from shelters. However, anecdotally veterinarians report more problems when animals are sold through pet stores (where health guarantees may be non existent). And indeed evidence mounts concerning behavior problems.
- The buyers from pet stores have no family records, so there's no way to determine how long the parents of the little puppy or kitty lived, and nothing may be learned about familial or genetic health issues. No past health records are available. Temperament is also, in part, genetic. Meeting the folks is very helpful, and can't be done in a pet store setting.
- Purchase from a responsible breeder or adopt from a shelter, and if you have a problem there's back up....or there should be, experts to provide advise. And should you decide this pet isn't right for your family, a responsible breeder or animal shelter accepts the animal back (albeit begrudgingly) - some pet stores will, many will not,.
- Some pet stores do pay attention to socialization, but others do not. And more important, there's no way to determine if the pet was socialized before arrival at the store. Missing out on early socialization is a significant cause of behavior problems which results ultimately in euthanasia.
Now about Karen McLeod's editorial: She seems to suggest that a significant number of animals derive from pet stores (increasingly untrue), and without the ability to sell them, people won't have an outlet to buy a dog or cat of their liking. Nonsense....though in a sense I wish that was true, shelters have lots of dogs and even more cats; rescue groups represent each of the pure bred's from Affenpinscher to Yorkshire Terrier and from Abyssinian to Turkish Van, not to mention all the responsible breeders of the world.
Many pet stores survive just fine without selling dogs or cats, boutique pet stores are found all over the country, like Barker & Meowsky in Chicago...Petco and PETsMART have no interest in selling dogs or cats.
While I don't want to small businesses crippled, I am far more concerned about those selling crippled dogs and cats. And, in a sense, it turns out many are crippled. Here's some hard science, hot off the press from Dr. Frank McMillan, lead researcher and director of well-being studies from Best Friends Animal Society, discovered in a survey of 1,169 former puppy mill dogs - while all dogs sold at pet stores aren't from puppy mills, as I've noted many are. His findings are:
- Dogs used as breeding parents in puppy mills show significantly high levels of fear
- They have pronounced compulsive and repetitive behaviors such as spinning in tight circle and pacing
- They are less trainable
- They are more likely to soil a home
- They have heightened sensitivity and resistance to being touched or picked up
- Buying a puppy from a pet store contributes to the likelihood that the parents of that puppy must continue to endure a poor quality of life in a puppy mill
I realize people are impulsive, me too....it's a part of our human condition. But please don't purchase a dog or cat at a pet store this holiday season (or anytime), and never rationalize that you are saving that pet. There's some truth to that - but you are also keeping the pet store in business (and as McMillan's final point is noted above), you're keeping that puppy mill in business which allows for their inhumane practices to continue.
Filed under: animal shelters, cats, dogs, pet store, pets, Puppy Mill, Puppy Mills, Steve Dale, veterinary health
Tags: Barker & Meowsky, Best Friends Animal Animal Society, Frank McMillan, Karen McLeod, pet store sales, pet stores, petage, Petco PETsMART, puppy mills, socialized cats, socialized dogs, Steve Dale, Steve Dale archives, unsocialized cats, unsocialized dogs
Wow Steve! I remember reading the same article in the previous issue of Pet Age and thinking how much I disagreed as well. Coming from a previous background in retail I understand the plight of retailers, but NO retail store should sell pets. Period. She is completely off base in her assessment of things....bottom line is that people who rescue pets or even purchase them from LEGIT and REPUTABLE breeders will still shop for goods at your store. In fact, they will be more likely to shop at your store if you DON'T carry live pets because everyone is thankfully becoming more educated on the situation. Not to mention, the majority of people who WOULD purchase a pet from a pet store with either have it die or will end up spending SO MUCH MONEY on vet bills that they won't be able to afford to shop at the retailers anyhow.
Absolutely, well articulated....and thank you for your comments-
I use to believe it was wrong to buy purebreds from pet stores, but I have been proven wrong by many who bought their dogs from a retail store. Now I realize that the hype is more about pushing sales of shelter dogs than it is about the care and health from commercial kennel dogs. I want people to buy from shelters, too, but I think it is awful that it is done by criminalizing all commercial kennels. Think about it, you suggest all these deficiencies in kennel raised puppies and yet you know absolutely nothing about shelter dogs in most cases. Very hypocritical. More and more I see pet stores being bullied into only selling shelter stock vs commercial bred stock. In some cases I have heard pet stores forced to close and then a shelter groups move into the vacated retail space. This is just shameful.
I'm sure it's happened, but I have never heard of a pet store being replaced by a shelter...besides MANY pet stores seem to do just fine without selling dogs and cats....Some sell fish, some sell no animals....Adjusting their business model? Why not?
Yes - no question, I agree shelter animals may indeed come with an assortment of health issues....I say that, I know that....I agree with that....but talk to veterinarians and anecdotally, they tell me - more likely seen in pet store animals. But there are many, many, many, many more reasons why purchasing from a breeder, shelter, etc. may be wiser.
This article is not reasonable at all. It insinuates and hints even though it has already said that there is no evidence that, pet store puppies are less healthy than other puppies, for example. Shelter/rescue puppies have even less background information available than a pet store puppy. The large number of pet store puppies that are and have been successful family dogs over the years proves that the system works for the people who chose to use it. CHOOSE is the critical term. We are Americans, and it is the cornerstone of our culture that we get to choose. We can choose a small hobby breeder, a shelter of rescue, or a pet store. We small purebred breeders can't produce anywhere enough puppies to fill the demand of families wanting dogs. We are discriminating, and may make people wait months or even years for a companion puppy. Here in the northeast, the shelters and rescues don't have the dogs either so they import them, often without medical records. Lots of folks are going to prefer the pet shop. It's their right to do so. Most states have pretty tough lemon laws that apply to puppies and kittens--buyers from any source need to educate themselves but it's not fair for somebody outside their households to choose what animal may or may not live there.
Yes - I agree about choice...YES. However, consider that many - even most - of the dogs available at pet stores are from puppy mills. Sadly, we're not doing a very good job of closing them down at one end...so maybe we can if people don't buy them...supply & demand.
Also, consider the truth is that many (I don't know how many but a substantial) number of dogs being sold are being sold as a pedigreed you fill in the blank. for the breed name...but are, in fact, mixes....I don't care personally if I have a mix...but not selling something as advertised - that's deceitful if not outright fraud.
To appease the public they often lie about where the dogs are from - maybe not unlawful, may it is unlawful - but it's sure not honest.
Now, if these puppy mills didn't thrive (c'mon you can't defend their operations?) and if most people got what they paid for - I'd maybe agree with you...And clearly, I have no problem with pure bred dogs or pedigree cats. I have a Devon Rex and have had pure bred dogs.
This 'fight' shouldn't be breeders vs. shelters - I support both....but I do not support puppy mills.
Besides, if you are a breeder the worst thing you can imagine is a family getting a dog from you who is ill-suited for a pet or for your breed - you know, 90-year old couple with a Border Collie....the pet store doesn't know (employees aren't knowledgeable on this stuff, often), most of all, doesn't care as long as there's cash to pay. It's about making a sale - not matching the right pet with the right home. I find it shocking a breeder would say, that doesn't matter....
Yes, some states do have 'pet lemon laws' - most states, in fact, do not.
Acquiring a dog from a shelter can be less of a guarantee of temperament and/or health than from a pet store. At least from a pet store a person is buying a breed of dog and they can research that breed prior to purchase. A mixed bred shelter dog is a crapshoot in temperament - and you have no idea about where it is been and how it has been treated.
It is a fallacy that a person can get “any” purebred dog at a shelter. Not true at all. You will find very few purebred dogs in shelter, the exception being American Pit Bulls, that breed seems to find its way all too often into shelters. Most shelter workers do not know dog breeds, it is kind of funny what they come up with… I have heard some real doozers!
HSUS has doing a huge evil to this country with their propaganda campaign against dog breeders – and make no mistake they are against ALL dog breeders. The commercial dog breeder is highly regulated, FDA inspected. There kennels would make most hobby breeder envious – they are clean and modern. The pictures and video that is played over and over by HSUS and PETA is of a few backyard breeders that are bad people – they are NOT commercial breeders. There are always bad people – right? We have child rapists, serial killers and we have the FEW bad people that mistreat animals.
People you must think for yourselves. Understand that HSUS and PETA are against pets and pet ownership, and they will do anything, ANYthing to end it. Check it out, I did. I learned, you can too.
Yes, as I've said - and will say again and again but you fully ignore (as do others here when I say it - because are fighting your own fight instead of having a conversation) .....YES, pedigreed dogs have more predictable temperaments. And yes, good breeders (and rescues) are marvelous places to get dogs. I never said ANYTHING nor will I to critique quality breeders, or pure bred dogs, or having 'the right' to have them...I have (though I don't currently...but I do have a pedigreed cat)....
HOWEVER - quality breeders have been TELLING ME for years what defines a quality breeder - and while selling to pet stores don't follow any of their 'rules' or definition points of what a quality breeder is (I mentioned several in my original post) - rule #1 - know who you are selling to. Period. Pet stores don't know and don't care as long as you have bucks to pay. So, I you really believe a dog should be a couch potato and seek a Border Collie, who cares?
Second - how do you know what you are buying? Because a pet store says it's a ---- fill in the blank - you name the breed, a Cavalier King Charles, does it mean it really is? Of course not - we KNOW that - This is not my opinion but repeatedly and I mean REPEATEDLY has been demonstrated, what you see at pet stores is not necessarily what they say it is.
It's unlawful to misrepresent any product....aside from that clearly they're mostly not well bred dogs (though there are exceptions which come from commercial, large scale facilities - which are vet cared for, though dogs may or may not be well socialized). Most are from puppy mills -
Interesting to hear people defend puppy mills.
Bottom line that Cavalier - first may not be a real pure bred Cavalier, and second - talk about a likelihood of health issues....nothing the buy can do to check the history....with a real breeder, you can check the lineage as a consumer, as you should.
About the HSUS - ok. I believe you. I am not with PeTA (not hardly), and have been very vocal publicly on the opposite side of several issues concerning the HSUS. Bringing them into this is pretty much fine, though I agree with you greatly about the HSUS...but it's besides the point.
As far as shelter volunteers not knowing dog (or cat) breeds, well some do, many may not....they do their best....I argue they are likely more informed than people who work at pet stores, overall. not sure how that is relevant.
And - incidentally, the "Pit Bulls" you find in shelters are rarely true American Pit Bull Terriers (as you suggest), they are street Pits, a mix of a variety which ultimately has a similar phenotype to what we refer to as Pit Bulls. I mean one (of many many many many) issues with breed bans, 'what is a Pit,' afterall?" I am in shelters a lot, there would, in FACT, be many more pedigrees if pure bred rescues didn't exist. They do exist - and help, and that is a good thing.
Give or take there are about as many pure bred dogs given up as mixes - since there are about as many pure bred dogs in the general population. . . Not sure, though, what that has to do with buying a pet stores.
I agree with Steve's comments but would like to add a few more.
Where you heard that commercial dog breeding is highly regulated and properly inspected? Nothing could be further from the truth.
Audits of puppy mills repeatedly find the USDA is ineffective at enforcing the Animal Welfare Act, which itself offers minimal protection of animals.
From SourceWatch:
The USDA Animal & Plant Health Inspection Service/Animal Care (USDA/APHIS/AC) is responsible for inspections, reporting and enforcing the Animal Welfare Act (AWA). The AWA is the only federal law that regulates animals bred and sold by dealers, animals in entertainment, zoo animals and laboratory animals. [12] Even minimal requirements under the AWA are rarely enforced. [13]
There are only about a hundred USDA inspectors to monitor 10,000 facilities across the country, ranging from research labs to zoos. Furthermore, "standards" are abysmal. Federal guidelines allow a medium sized terrier to be kept in a cage the size of a clothes drier for its entire life. The AWA is hardly the gold standard for compassion. For example, the act does not say you cannot have 300 dogs confined to cages for their entire lives; never to be taken for a walk or receive any personal attention, let alone be a part of a family. A breeder passes USDA muster as long as the dog has food, water and enough space to turn around. Adhering to USDA standards does not prove that a breeder is not a puppy mill. Even more so since even these standards are not enforced. Many licensed breeders for large chains like Petland, have significant violations
Also, where did you hear about HSUS's propaganda campaign against breeders? If there is such a campaign, why does HSUS's website have information on how to find a reputable breeder - but yet nothing about this campaign?
I believe HSUS is doing a good job passing humane legislation for commercial breeding. States that have passed stricter laws are seeing the worst puppy mills close. In PA over 100 mills have closed.
In the very least, conditions are improving in these mills. But I still believe all commercial breeding is inherently cruel and inhumane.
We have the right to choose to pull the trigger and take someones life but that doesn't make it the right choice. Spare me with your banter. People can go online to petfinder.com or and one of the thousands of rescue sites and get the exact match to their choice of specifications and even a dog that has no health issues. Imagine that!
It should not be legal to own/operate any kind of puppy mill or high production animal breeding facility and choosing to shut down stores who keeps these places in business is a choice that smart Americans seem to be making more frequently, Thankfully.
Don't shop - Adopt!
I'm so tired of people talking about pet stores as just small businesses that need to survive. Animals and pets are not things. They are living breathing creatures with hearts and souls. They are not T.V.'s or jewelry. They are not and should not be sold for profit...period. As much as I love dogs and cats and all creatures in this world I would much rather live in a world without dogs and cats than in a world where we treat them as cruelly as we do right now. The ironic part is that by treating animals as cruelly as they are being treated in puppy mills we are rendering these beautiful creatures as cold and soulless as the people who see nothing wrong with doing it to them. If we believe this Gandhi quote to be true..."The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated. I hold that, the more helpless a creature, the more entitled it is to protection by man from the cruelty of man," then we, as a world, are failing miserably. There is nothing shameful in closing pet stores that sell live animals from puppy mills. The only shame is that there are still way too many open for business. Shelters have to take in all these overbred and unwanted animals that puppy mills create because no one else wants them. I would never buy a dog or cat from a puppy store. Because the reality is I will probably end up adopting them from a shelter sometime in the future. There are too many animals being created and not enough people who are willing and able to care for them for the rest of their lives. Animals should not be created merely to make money and to inflict a life of misery upon them.
This is so typical of animal rights (not to be confused with animal welfare). Do you hear what is being said? A dead dog or no dog is better off than a dog owned by a human. All animal ownership is cruelty to the animal rights.
Prime Rib - I didn't read that line anywhere here....
"a dead dog or no dog is better off than dog owned by a human" where did I miss that.....
Listen I am NOT an animal rights person - and people who know me or have read my work or heard me on the radio/seen me on TV - know I have defended breeders in places where it is NOT popular to do so, successfully worked to push back breed bans and also mandated spay/neuter....etc etc.
Prime Rib....I do not believe in dead dogs, but unfortunately as someone who volunteers at an open animal shelter (which means a kill shelter) I get to experience the reality of what happens to dogs that are overbred and unwanted. The shelter I volunteer at receives over 100 unwanted dogs a day (that number doesn't include the number of cats and other animals it receives daily...that is just the number of dogs). Over 50% of these dogs are pure bred dogs...and still, believe it or not, nobody wants them and the majority of them don't make it out alive. I own two dogs...both adopted from shelters...one I adopted when he was four years old...he is a Beagle...perfectly wonderful dog, no behavior problems. I don't believe pure bred dogs are necessarily unhealthy...what I'm saying is it doesn't matter...healthy or not, pets and animals are expendable to most people. My problem is why do we keep creating animals that nobody wants? Why do we keep creating animals that people throw away as soon as the novelty of them wears off? I just adopted an 8 year old Rottweiler from a shelter that has been in and out of shelters her entire life (since she was one year old). She has been an object to most of the people who have had the honor to own her and as soon as they were tired of her or she was too much work, they got rid of her and took her back to the shelter. She will never again be taken back to any shelter as long as I am alive. I have made a lifetime commitment to her. Most people aren't willing or able to do that. That's all I'm saying. So why keep creating animals that are just going to be abandoned and eventually euthanized? It's sad and it's inhumane. Go work at a shelter for one day...go play with and walk some of these wonderful animals...do that all the while knowing they probably won't make it out alive. Do that and realize that the love you're giving them for 20 -30 minutes may be the most love and care they've been given their entire lives. And then tell me puppy mills are okay...then tell me it's okay to keep creating more and more animals. It makes no sense to someone who truly loves animals....it makes no sense to me...does it make sense to you? Really?
Stacey - thanks of course I agree concerning puppy mills - and most breeders do too...And well put - the shame is that puppy mills are operating in the first place and that we even need to have this conversation.
What a noble diatribe, Steve. (cough)
I am a breeder, but do not sell my purpose bred puppies. Unlike you, I don't exist behind a set of Disney-fied blinders that keeps me from seeing that every American deserves the opportunity to own the pet of their choice. Purebred or mixed bred, from selectively bred to unknown breeding, from a breeder all the way to shelter or rescue.
It baffles me that the purchase of a dog has been made into a commercial vs. rescue thing. I've encountered no shortage of shelter/rescue dogs that exhibit the undesirable qualities detailed in McMillan's research. Why is it appealing or attractive to 'adopt' them, yet one should not even consider buying a commercially bred dog because it may or may not possess the qualities in the specious research by McMillan?
Health-wise, I have never in my decade long tenure as a vet tech treated a parvo puppy purchased from a pet shop or commercial breeder. My office has treated and lost countless parvo pups from local shelters. Had these unfortunate owners consulted me before buying their new puppy, I would have been telling them to RUN, not walk, to the nearest commercial breeder or pet shop who could offer a health record and vax history on their new pets. Likely would have been a lot cheaper than the 1.5 grand plu$ they spent on shelter puppy parvo treatment, only to lose their new pet.
Shelter dogs and rescue are an excellent option for the dog savvy and experienced owners. Purchasing a shelter dog or rescue because of emotional appeal or other intellectually dishonest guilt trip is bad for potential dog lovers and their dogs.
CantheDisney - no idea all of what you're saying....of course, people should have the pet(s) of their choices. I don't disagree...I just don't like to see puppy mills prosper. As I've noted, I currently have 2 dogs (both from shelters and mixed breeds) and a Devon Rex cat (pedigreed cat). I have no issue with responsible breeders whatsoever. In fact, I believe quality breeders are a part of the solution (not a part of the problem).
Maybe you haven't treated Parvo from a pet store dog, or other illness - you are one person....Yes, shelter animals do get sick, and some shelters have huge disease transmission problems - I know that. I've said that. I am saying it again. I can repeat yet again if you like. I don't deny that. . . but pet store animals - absolutely anecdotally are right up there - and even exceeding....some shelters will take some responsibility for financial assistance in that care, if there needs to be. Pet stores do not.
It's also behavioral issues - number one reason (not health problems) for returns anyway....pet stores don't generally have expertise or behavior help lines, at least some shelters do. And shelters will take back the animals, as do responsible breeders. Pet stores mostly do not.
What happens with posts like this is that people emotionally tied to positions - take one extreme position or another --- the truth is in the middle somewhere. I am Switzerland here - I like pet stores, love the good breeders and love the good rescues and shelters.
This is not about shelters vs. pet stores....that's ridiculous.
And when the truth is that puppy mills provide so many animals to pet stores - and as I've repeatedly said - suggesting dogs are sold as one thing, but in truth they're really another (so the dog may be called a Yorkie when it fact, a Yorkie mix), is unlawful. Nevermind the support of the horrific puppy mills and the factory conditions these dogs are bred....and often not socialized.
It might help to define "puppy mill."
Is it any commercial breeder, or anyone who keeps intact dogs and breeds at all? Anyone who keeps more than "xx" or "xxx" number of dogs? Anyone who keeps and raises their dogs in squalid, overcrowded conditions or anyone who raises them anywhere but in the house on their beds and sofas? For too many people these days, it is all of the above.
In my region, the only breeders who have been taken down as "puppy mills" were good people and their families taking excellent care of their dogs who didn't happen to be keeping and raising their dogs/pups as others thought they ought be, i.e. just a small number of dogs all living as human children with fur coats in the house and receiving every sort of costly health testing under the sun, whether recommended for their breed(s) or not.
I'm all for taking down breeders/owners who keep/raise their dogs in squalid, overcrowded conditions with no regard to their health and well being, but I've not seen much evidence that most of the higher volume or commercial breeders engage in such practices. How can they afford to with the public microscope peering down on them 24/7? The outcry seems to revolve around commercial kennel dogs not living in the house and their owners having more dogs than less experienced dog enthusiasts believe anyone should be allowed to own, rather than truly negligent, cruel or abusive care/keeping.
I don't really have a dog in this hunt, other than I have bred a couple of litters. My breed is not one of the popular hand bag sizes that are so in demand currently. However, my super athletes wouldn't be here today were it not for some well respected breeders with huge professional kennels who in the past, kept and bred an amount of dogs/pups that would probably have them scorned and smeared as "puppy mills" today.
It pains me to watch my breed's gene pool dwindle down to practically nothing as less and less opt to breed, or s/n for the least flaw in order to be considered "responsible" breeders and owners. Being too selective causes its own set of problems and they will be visited upon future generations of potential dog owners and fanciers. My grand children and maybe yours too.
So get clear about what you consider a "puppy mill" and maybe I'll shut up. However, from my seat in the peanut gallery of dogdom, we could use a few more high volume, quality breeders of my breed, certainly not any less! With so many desiring the small purse sized breeds, I don't see how the need can be filled without high volume or commercial breeders. I owe them benefit of a doubt and my respect unless I see clear evidence an individual kennel is not keeping or treating their dogs/pups properly. I certainly have recommended against certain kennels in the past, but it seldom had to do with how many dogs in the kennel or pups sold, rather a poor attitude of the kennel owner and/or improper care of dogs in the kennel. That isn't simply a matter of how many (or few) dogs a kennel owner keeps or raises.
I so don't understand - Disneyfan....I am in your corner....It also makes me sad that breeds have dwindled to so little genetically to choose from - many, many reasons for this:
- more expensive than ever to be a hobby breeder; invasive legislation; not out-crossing; for larger breeds - less demand and fewer places to breed larger dogs. . . I suppose all this is besides the point....
On commercial facilities, if you read my original post - I made a distinction between those places and puppy mills....not that they are the right place to get a dog either. While 'better' than puppy mills, they are not ideal. . .
But either way, if you are a breeder - the worst thing you can imagine (I hope) is randomly selling a dog to any family walking in off the street, a family not suited for your apparently active breed. In a pet store - there is no screening whatsoever - you have dollars, you can buy.
If it really is a - fill in the blank - name any breed - a Yorkshire Terrier, a Border Collie (they are sold at pet stores)....whatever it is....first, it's not likely to be a real Yorkie or Border Collie (as I've pointed out), there's no opportunity for consumers to ask about history, genetics, etc. I realize you can't do that at a shelter - but as someone here pointed out - the situation is different. Those dogs might ultimately die if not adopted, and you're paying far less for them also....There's a different between buying at a designer store and going to a used clothing store (I'm not sure of that comparison myself - just trying to make a point).
I do not have time to reply to the extent upon that which I desire... but, I am truly beyond belief... are you saying Americans... "deserve"... are "entitled"..."must" be able to have a selection of pure bred dogs "of their choice" to purchase.. to make themselves happy? I need you to first clarify that... I must address this... as this, my friend, is the VERY CORE of the problem... entitlement to greed/need/want... sick, disgusting and lack of any moral fiber.. wow.
Wow! You are just a savior (cough).
I know 3 different people who have, before knowing better, purchased dogs from pets stores. One, here in Colorado, and two in NJ. One of the puppies had rickets so badly, he had to be euthanized, another had such a bad underbite, he has issues eating and the 3rd was fine. Great statistics!
I support banning all pets from being sold in pet store, especially considering 20 million shelter animals are euthanized each year. That's right, 20 million. Look it up.
So keep breeding, Canthe! I must thank you for adding to the population.
Don't shop - Adopt! And if you are ANY way of a responsible pet owner/lover you will spay or neuter all of you pets!
Furthermore, AKC regulations have severly tainted the health of closely bred animals. Inbreeding has lead to continued hip dysplasia among other things.
Another thing is how much these "responsible owners" who buy from pet stores, pay for their new additions. They would pay less going straight to a breeder, but it is an impulse buy. And they typically don't come with (adoption fee included) certificates for having the animal spayed/neutered and a free health exam like they do when they come from the shelter. They all are now also microchipped.
So shut it, breeder. You ARE PART OF THE problem!
Sincerly,
Someone who hates what you do...and the owner of two rescued pit bulls and 3 rescued kitties:) have a great day, jerk.
Got your bloomers in a twist Kimberly? Try some chamomile tea. You won't be baiting me into your level of ad hominem,
20 million shelter animals are euthanized each year, eh? I guess that's possible if it's a world wide number or in some third world(?) country other than the U.S. However, the most recent press release (dated Nov. 15, 2011, 8:30 a.m. EST) from The Ad Council, working in partnership with HSUS and Maddies Fund, proclaims that "Pet Adoptions Rise, Shelter Deaths Fall As Ad Council Launches Second Wave of Historic Pet Adoption Campaign."
Wanna know how much the "Shelter Deaths" have fallen? Probably not, but here's the facts for you anyway:
"Despite a bleak economy, the percentage of pets in homes that were adopted from animal shelters and rescue groups has risen from 27 percent to 29 percent in the last two years, with the number of healthy and treatable pets losing their lives for lack of a home dropping from 3 million to 2.7 million."
That's 2.7 million that don't make it vs 164.6 million owned cats and dogs in the US, the latter figure quoted by HSUS from the American Pet Products Association (APPA).
I'm sad for the healthy, treatable pets who are killed in US shelters, but that number pales in comparison to all of the owned, homed and presumably happy pets in America. When do we stop hating others for the few failures that may or may not be their fault and start applauding and celebrating all of those who are doing the right things for pets? Whether shelter workers, rescuers, breeders, or just plain vanilla owners?
I've had enough of the hating. I choose to support, encourage and celebrate every successful dog owner and every success with a dog, regardless how it got where it is now.
This is what I mean about extremes on both sides and the truth in the middle - I am not saying and never would say dogs aren't dying that should live....and I've been misquoted because I also know and also speak the truth. EVER, Kimberly, that number you read (a guestimate) 20 million (and sometimes numbers are lower or higher) included dogs who in my opinion shouldn't be adopted and sometimes are adopted, and all those Pit Bull type dogs no one wants (this is tragic - but pure bred dogs are not causing these issues)....many shelters in places in this country actually seek adoptable dogs.
Responsible breeders adopt dogs already spay/neutered or have it in their contracts....and we KNOW most people in many urban areas of America are spay/nuetering (finally). Still more work needs to be done there....but people want pure bred dogs. I agree with people given the right to have what they want - and I see advantages to having pedigreed dogs myself. I have no issue with people making their own choices - this is America.
With cats, it's another story - very few shelters (if even a single one) could say - well, we don't have enough cats to adopt out...many reasons for that, but breeders aren't really among them either. Less than 5 percent of the cat owning public has a pure bred cat.
For those making the 'issue' pure bred' vs. shelters - all that's being done is flames are fanned for no reason - problems aren't really addressed.
Kimberly don't pain with one brush....I mostly agree with you - but there are still many very good breeders out there....We need them if we want pure bred Rottweilers and Dobermans and Brittanies and Labradors and everything else....and people do want pure bred dogs.
Breeders are so wary now - not knowing who to trust; I don't blame them, in a sense....It seems they get blamed for everything...Have said that, there's huge truth to much to what you wrote. And nice that you've rescued Pits!
That is ridiculous!! There are no where near 20 million animals euthanized each year. The last figures I heard were closer to 4 million. And most of those were feral cats!
I got my Pokey from a pet store. He is not a perfect Pomeranian, but he IS a perfect dog! He didn't come from a life of neglect and abuse before I got him. He is calm, trusting, healthy and everything I needed in a companion. Without some breeder somewhere putting two dogs together my Pokey would exist. Now, THAT would be a real crime!
If you "rescue" a pet you get no health guarantees. And if you bought a puppy with a severe over bite then shame on you for not looking at the cute little dog before you bought him! Same with severe rickets. If you want a healthy puppy from a breeder pet store OR rescue, you should LOOK at the dog and then not complain because you got a dog with an obvious flaw! Thats just silly, and irresponsible of any puppy buyer!
I answered the Best Friends vet questionarre a few years ago about my Pet store purchase, ans since my experience didn't play into his pre concieved ideas that was the last I heard of his survey. I think its fair to say most pups sold in pet stores aren't show quality breed representatives but they don't sell for show prices either. One of my pet peeves is "rescues" who sell thier dogs for the same price as a breeder, and then the rescue retains ownership rights in the animal you have purchaesd. No health guarantees to protect the buyer, but the right to take your pet away if they don't approve of the way you are keeping your pet.
Pet stores are not evil and breeding is not evil. Without either one there would never have been a Pokey (or his sister Dokey or their brother...) and that would be evil!
In addition to the misinformation that CantheDisney has corrected, let me correct you on another myth--neither AKC nor "inbreeding" has anything to do with continued health problems. Working German Shepards in Germany are among some of the most highly regulated bred animals in the world--and they still have hip dysplasia. 30 years of OFA screening has not eliminated hip dysplasia. Most health problems that you see in pedigreed dogs and cats are much more complicated than can be explained by "inbreeding". And, as a vet tech of 26 years, let me assure you that mixed breed dogs and cats are equally as likely to have the exact same problems as any pedigreed breed. Having worked in both high income and low income areas, I have seen it all.
Frankly, in California we don't see many pet store animals, not many pet stores still sell kittens and puppies. What we see dropping dead from parvo within a week of getting them is shelter and flea market puppies. And I would be very wary of adopting a kitten from most shelters, given how poorly young kittens do in a shelter environment. And frankly, I tell people who have young children or cats to NEVER adopt untested adult dogs from a shelter, it's just too dangerous. Always go to a rescue group that is willing to temperament test them. I have seen to many family dogs savage the family cat to ever trust a dog who didn't grow up with the cat as boss.
It looks like some people are missing the point of banning puppy mills. First, it's true that, with a rescue or shelter dog, you may not know what you are getting any more than you would if you bought a mill dog from a pet store. But the shelter dogs are already here, living and breathing and needing families and lifetime care - MILLIONS of them! Why "produce" more dogs until we have taken care of what is already here?
Secondly, if the day comes when every dog has a good home and we need MORE dogs to fill the demand, puppy mills are NOT the places to do that. I agree with Stacey Smith - for the sake of the animals, I would rather live in a world without them than in a world where I know that every minute of every day, many of them are living lives of neglect, abandonment, and cruelty.
There is a huge difference between responsible breeding and the atrocious conditions in a breeding "factory". Animals are feeling creatures. Without knowledge and compassion, you have no business breeding anything. Do you have the "right"? Yes. Legally, the law is behind your selfish sense of entitlement to have exactly what you want when you want it. But having the right doesn't MAKE it right.
Nicely put, Michelle -
Throwing around words and phrases can be so inflammatory. Some people decry the use of the term "puppy mill" and prefer to call them "high volume breeders." The reality is that these people are in business and their products are puppies. They are not animal lovers or animal haters. They are animal exploiters. They purchase one or more females of a breed and only need one male to use for stud. Dogs do what comes naturally and the result is puppies. Even if they are kept in deplorable conditions, females will still come in heat and males will still respond. Even with no exercise, no protection from the weather, no medical care, poor quality food and no socialization with people, dogs will reproduce. It only takes 2 months from mating to birth, and another 6 weeks before the puppies are transported to pet stores. In some states, they can't be sold to the public until they're 8 weeks old, but brokers can get them before that. They are products, merchandise, to be sold for a profit. All manufacturers expect a certain amount of breakage, and they adjust the price to make up for these losses. In the case of puppies, the damaged items are living beings, infant puppies who endure transport and end up in showrooms where people fall in love with their cuteness. Meanwhile, they've had little or no handling by loving people, little or no opportunities to play with their siblings, and little or no attention paid to their emotional needs. Their cuteness is a curse and they pay the price. Meanwhile, their parents spend their lives making babies until they are no longer profitable. This is the reality of the high volume breeder. This is the tragedy of puppy mills, even the ones that are not filthy, that don't have cages piled high with urine and feces dropping to the cages below, even the ones that don't have sick or dying puppies in cages with mothers with ulcerated nipples or rotted teeth. These puppies and their parents are victims, and the people who buy them are duped. It needs to be stopped. Free enterprise is one thing, but this business is unconscionable.
Yes, there are "kitty mills" as well. It's actually easier to breed cats than dogs, because dogs usually only come in heat twice a year, but cats can come in heat every couple of months. Large breed dogs take up lots more space than cats. I've personally helped clean up after a couple of Persian cat "breeders" who had adult cats in cages filled with feces, matted so badly they couldn't see, only able to make kittens for people to buy. The stench was horrible, the cats were suffering horribly, and the "reputable breeder" took a couple of well groomed cats to shows to win ribbons. And by the way, there are bird breeding operations, as well as guinea pigs, rabbits, hamsters, gerbils, mice, rats and fish hatcheries. Not to mention lizards, snakes, and all the other living beings that people want to own. Suppliers rake in the money with their breeding and brokering, and pet stores sell them to an eager public. The suppliers are not animal lovers or animal haters. They just want an easy way to make money, and animals are a product. As long as there is a demand, there will be a supply unless the public is educated about the reality of where their "pets" come from.
Why is it ethical for shelters to import 1,000's of dogs from other countries while claiming pet over population in this country and while condemning dog breeders in our country? Could it be to keep their doors open and keep their salaries?
http://www.potcakeplace.com/
http://cwob.org/rescue.html
http://www.saveamexicanmutt.org/
http://www.saveasato.org/
http://www.10news.com/news/9330939/detail.html
I agree with you Steve. Many of you are making more of this, than it is. Puppy Mills are bad. Pet Stores buy from Puppy Mills. Therefore Pet Stores are bad. :)
So a "puppy mill" is defined as any breeder or breeding facility that sells pups to or through a pet store? Does that definition fit for you too, Steve?
If you can show me CantheDisney where I have EVER said that, I am really interested...don't put words in my mouth.
It's really interesting - you say you are a breeder. ALL breeders I know disdain puppy mills....I did make a distinction pointing out another supplier for pet stores are commercial facilities - I don't like them, but made the distinction in my first post and also a comment back to you.
Like Jojodog said - much of what pet stores sell we know is from puppy mills - how can anyone defend that? Also, what they sell typically isn't truthful - they advertise as one thing, sell as another - that is unlawful. If it was any other business, they would be run out of business.
Back to you being a breeder - what kind of breeder are you? All responsible breeders I know....have in their contract animals are spay/neutered (if they are not already) --- assuming the sale is to a pet owner.....and most of all, wants to know who the heck they are selling to. So forget everything else - just that issue alone.....you have no idea whatsoever who the dog is going to, whether it's a right fit, even could use a small dog as a bait dog or resell the dog - you've done no due diligence to at least attempt to learn something - all you care about is getting the cash? That's no breeder I know. That is EVERY pet store I know (that sells dogs or cats).
So, as everyone keeps saying--define "puppymill". Is it numbers? Conditions? And exactly what conditions apply? Remember, PETA and HSUS consider ALL breeders to be evil and greedy--it doesn't matter if they have 2 breeding animals or 200.
Also, to correct some misinformation--according to HSUS' own numbers, from 2.5 to 3.5 million animals are murdered every year in our "shelters". According to pet retailers, about 20 MILLION households add a new pet every year. So, there are approximately 8 times as many homes available as there are pets murdered as "excess" each year. So, is there any excuse AT ALL for ANY shelter to murder a reasonably healthy, adoptable animal? No, there isn't. If your local shelter is still murdering animals for any reason, it's not because there aren't homes available--it's because they are too lazy to find them. THAT is the tragedy here.
As as I keep saying Jennifer - and it's getting annoying.....I am not PeTA or HSUS -
and REPEATEDLY here and throughout many years of a career have stood up for breeders - the good ones - even in unpopular places....I can offer quite a resume of defending good breeders.....so I do take offense to you ignoring that. My issue has NOTHI?NG to do with quality breeders.
I am on the Board of a shelter - please join us - I want to know how this all cat shelter can instantly find homes. We are too lazy? That is why we can't find more cats homes....You've gotta to be kidding? You've certainly lost credibility. I hope - really hope - I am misunderstanding.
Cats are a little different than dogs, sure--there are enormous numbers of stray and feral populations out there producing kittens, and people who simply wait a little too long to get their female cat spayed can experience an accidental pregnancy. However, I have placed old cats, cats with behavioral problems, cats with health issues, so it can be done. One simply needs to work at it. Placing kittens is ridiculously easy, it's the older ones that are harder. Nothing is instantanous. Use the internet, use cat shows, use Petsmart, use everything at your disposal. It's a little harder *right now*, but when the economy improves, so will the ability to place pets.
What I am really talking about is dogs. There is actually a shortage of puppies in this country. Thousands of puppies get smuggled across the US/Mexico border every year because there *is money in it*. There wouldn't be money in it if there were enough puppies here. The USDA has shown a 6 fold increase in dogs imported from foreign countries in the last 10 years--mostly from low income countries. There is money in shipping puppies to the US, because we actually have a shortage. Puppy mills exist because they can make money. If shelters properly ran and marketed their "product", they would quickly put puppy mills out of business. If the mills can't seel their puppies, because everyone is getting their pets from the properly run and marketed shelter, then they would stop breeding dogs. So, yes, it is mostly the shelters fault that they murder any reasonably healthy, adoptable dog.
Oh, and please don't state that I've "lost credibility" simply because I disagree with you. I've worked for large open admission shelters, I've been a vet tech for 26 years, I've bred cats for over 20, and I've rescued and placed plenty of both pedigreed and mixed breed cats. I have in one way or another been involved with animals for the last 30 years. Yes, I strongly feel that shelters have no business murdering pets, and if you aren't placing over 90% of your dogs and nearly as many cats, then you are doing it wrong.
If I might jump in..,
I personally look at any breeder who would use a middle man, which is what a "Pet store" would be, as irresponsible breeders, and exactly the ones that most of us are against.
A responsible "hobby" breeder wouldn't think of going that route, furthermore, for those here that claim to be breeders.., how would you have any control of who purchases one of your dogs by using a pet store?
Responsible breeders work closely with prospective customers to determine whether the breed is a proper fit for the family.
Pet store bought dogs can end up being good dogs, but that's by the roll of the dice!
When you see a puppy in a pet store, you can bet that puppy was removed too early from it's mom, and litter mates, thereby affecting it's ability to learn proper canine socialization, not to mention possible poor health issues. The transport time for a puppy, to a pet store, is smack dab right in the middle of that canine socialization time.
By reading some of the comments here, it astounds me that you aren't getting that by Steve's comments!
He has no issue with "proper" breeders, as well as shelter/rescues.
If you are a breeder that sells your puppies to a pet store to sell to the public, then I understand your defensiveness..., and see that you'll never change your mind, because you are in it for the money ONLY, not the well being of the animal, otherwise you'd sell them on your own.
I own a Dog training business in the Chicago land area, and specialize in dealing with behavior modifications.
Over 1/2 of the dogs I deal with that have these issues were store bought dogs.
The shelter dogs with similar issues are from those who either didn't do their homework as to properly raising dogs, and gave up, whether they are store bought or not.
The conditions that store bought dogs live in is less desirable on average, and normally come with a host of ailments.
That is why these places have been closed down, not just because some don't like what they are doing!
MIKE - THANK YOU!!! You said it better than I - hopefully people will now 'get it.' But then as you point out, not if they're in it only to sell to pet stores - and don't obviously then care about the outcome of those dogs....
I must have missed the day in school whe a survey(one that from the little I have read of it does not follow the popular methodology for least biased answers), taken by a company with a vested interested in the outcome, to a specific group of individuals known to have a bias in the subject and deal with the worst case secnerio of the subject was classified as "hard science" . Any one of those variables makes it interesting, but especially all together defining it as science is a reach. Serious question here really, if anyone can pick out your "education" on puppy mill dogs as iffy why would they listen to any other peice of the article.
Another problem I have with this article is defining buying a puppy from a store as an impulse buy. Many would like to adopt but rescues and shelters put perameters on adoption that have very little to do with it being a good home, especially breed specific rescues. having a yard or a fenced in yard or child age restrictions have little to do with how good an owner you are. Not to mention the person factor, that rescue people want cute little puppies and good dogs to go to friends not random people. Leaves buying a dog the only option. Not a impulse buy.
But I have yet to see really good ways to search for a breeder from any of these non profits trying to stop puppies sold in stores. Yes, even your suggestion that good breeders do not ship, not entirely true now is it? What happens when someonewants an uncommon dog like a Komondor, Not really a breeder in every state kind of dog. Willing to bet you know at least one dog show person who have shipped a perfectly fine puppy also. Really as long as there are people who are not educated on what to look for (when buying anything not just puppies) there will be people trying to make a buck off it. The answer is not to cut off pet stores, it is to educate consumers and stores on how to do it correctly. But I see one of your pals the puppy mill project shut down someone who was at least making an effort to do things correctly. Researched the breeders,let the puppys have play, and social time with each other, took dogs back when it did not work out, and I believe even refused to sell a puppy because it was not a good fit. Great! Wonderful! Less educated people out there always helps.
It is unfortunate that this piece only highlights the misbehaviors of the puppy mill advocates that claim to want change but have very little idea how.
A Chicagoland business/restaurant, looking for all the world like a great charitable organization...and they ruin it (in my opinion) by selling the following puppies in their "pet shop", proving that puppy mills and unscrupulous breeders can turn up in the most unlikely places:
(the list is right off of their web site - I did not make these up)
BICHON/PEKINGESE
CHIWEENIE
COCK-A-POO
FRENCHIE/BEAGLE
GLECHON (BEAGLE & BICHON)
MORKIE (MALTESE & YORKIE)
PEAGLE
PEKE-A-POO
POM-POO
SCHNAUZER/MALTESE
SCHNOODLE
http://www.lambsfarm.org/discover/business-attractions/pet-shop/puppy-list/
@ms7648.., too many points to answer you diatribe. Having a yard or not, or child restrictions ARE reasons to NOT sell to certain people depending on the situation.
How is that not logical.., the rest of your comments are so "all over the place", that I'll leave it to someone else to respond to.
@ Harpercollie.., I have never heard of them selling puppies before, and was just as surprised when I looked it up on their site.
I am curious as to where those puppies come from too...
This article... you're arguing that, as members of an animal welfare society, we shouldn't buy certain animals because they are less convenient for us? The only applicable and slightly convincing point addressed in this article is that the purchasing of puppies from big shot stores increases the puppy mill industry. That's the one time you talk about the good of the dogs, not the people. The people aren't the ones who need a home. Aside from that one comment, you're telling an orphanage that they shouldn't allow certain kids in their homes because they are prone to certain negative characteristics. Honestly I don't care if the dog paces back and forth, or soils the carpet, or is difficult to train. It needs a home too, and we're only punishing the puppy by trying to stick it to the puppy mills. Instead of "real pet lovers don't purchase..." etc, how bout "real pet lovers purchase pets."
^ in addition to above, I should also add another valid point you made was that a pet store will sell to anyone. That's fair enough. Puppies need good homes.
ooooops - Joseph - aside from what I said below - I did want to add, thanks for your comment. I click too fast sometimes.
Joseph I am not exactly clear on what you're saying - all I know, if we continue to purchase puppies from pet stores, we help to keep puppy mills in business.
If tomorrow - someone not a single puppy were purchased at a pet store - then soon after puppy mills with not a single sale would have to close down. I don't know what would happen to all those thousands and thousands of dogs (yes, it is that many) - at least though then they would be close. Hopefully, the new paradigm would be improved. But that's not in the real world going to happen.
As for the behavior and medical problems of puppies (sometimes kittens) - it does matter because right or wrong, though you may not do this - then those pets are far more likely to land at animal shelters....which then only increases their anxieties or they are among the too many euthanized.
@ Joseph..
I think it's commendable as to your compassion, and the point you made. But what Steve has pointed out is true.., and maybe YOU won't care if a dog soils in the house, or has issues..., but many do.
These dogs, puppies, Cats, or kittens end up at shelters, or are euthanized.
Not fair to the animal, that humans raise them like farm animals, not caring as to breed characteristics or health, and ship them off to pet stores before they have mentally developed properly.
All for the sale!
Responsible breeders wouldn't do this, and scrutinize their sales closely.
So answer me this as a yes or no only please. If a pet store obtained puppies only from compliant and responsible breeders, cared for them under veterinary supervision and socialized them properly, and then carefully placed these animals into qualified homes (via interviews and questionnaires) with legal health warranties that protected both the pet and owner, would this be acceptable to you?
Please yes or no only
yes
You say you aren't affiliated with the HSUS, but they are called Steve's picks in all of your links. Do you actually support an organization with an animal rights agenda that, if fulfilled, would create a vegan world with no pets or domestic animals of any kind?
From Humanewatch.org
According to national polling, 71 percent of Americans think HSUS is a pet shelter “umbrella” group. Also, 59 percent think HSUS contributes most of its money to local organizations that care for dogs and cats. Neither of these is true.
In 2008, the Humane Society of the United States had an operating budget of $99,664,400. But it paid less than one-half of one percent of all that money to organizations that do hands-on dog and cat sheltering—the functions its TV ads suggest are HSUS's main focus.
"their infomercial request for "just $19 dollars a month" will pay HSUS $228 over the course of a year. Of that, just $1.03 will reach a pet shelter".
And HSUS has put away millions in an executive pension plan—more than $16 million since 1998. During the same period, HSUS shared less money with pet shelters.
I once did support the HSUS - Because there's a link or was one somewhere connected with my name hardly means I am in support. . . You have not done your homework....
Yes - I have been outspoken, against much of what the HSUS has done in recent years, and was on a 'hit list' I am told they actually had. Can you believe that? I have testified on the other side of issues, and I am told my testimony and very public opposition has mattered nationally and especially in the Chicago area.
No - I do not disagree with everything the HSUS does.
Because not everything in life is that simple.
By the way, everything you said Robert C in your post I agree with! Except the numbers I heard just the other night, less than a dollar of that (you say just over a buck) goes to local shelters.
However, the question concerning puppy mills (mostly) and commercial breeding facilities and their relationships with pet stores is the issue - not the HSUS.
Just because I do like puppy mills (understatement) don't believe for all the reasons I have outlined that pet stores should be selling dogs - at least under the current system - that does not mean I am an AR person (and I suspect you know what I mean) - I am not!
Steve- - The links to the HSUS are on your website stevedale.tv listed under links - Steve's Choices in three different categories. To me, that implies you support them. \pardon me if i don't have a ton of background on your work and if you have spoken out against hsus practices \i applaud that. my comments and 'homework' stems only from the optics of seeing links hsus on your website. I appreciate that you respond so promptly, this topic has touched a nerve from both ends of the spectrum.
One link - and you didn't go further? One thing for you to inquire about that. Another to make a leap that I am somehow lying when I say I am not supportive is another.
Here's the true story about one little link - which I'm not even sure where it currently would be...That link is over a decade old. I am attempting to refurbish the site soon....and am at this point not making changes. Truth is, that link I thought was gone - and somehow reappeared. I can't explain that...but I believe you that it is there...I am sure if you search the net you can find more out, like the HSUS years ago gave me an award. And that I had Wayne Pacelle on the radio - which actually I would do again, though ask him very different types of questions.
Your note - I suppose - did touch a nerve, in that you assumed something untrue. No one likes that...Also I am an NOT an AR person and don't want to be labeled as such. That is not what this issue is about. But most of all, to the extent I can - I always respond to comments.
I certainly did not imply that you were lying. As someone from another country who googled pet radio - your name came up on page 1(an accomplishment in itself) . I visited your facebook page, saw the article titled Real \pet Lovers dont buy from pet stores. i visited Stevedale.tv and clicked your links. HSUS link is right there. The optics are all i am commenting on, and understand now and appreciate that you are an animal welfare advocate. Please accept my apologies for the misunderstanding.
No need to apologize - glad you checked me out....
Robert, your source for the HSUS information is Humane Watch.
They are an industry funded front group that lobbies on behalf of the animal industry including puppy mills, factory farms, canned hunt businesses, fur farms, etc.
This organization is one man blog created by Rick Berman of the Center for Consumer Freedom. They've been exposed by 60 minutes and other mainstream media for lying and deceiving the public. (Other front groups that try to discredit HSUS include Activist Cash, NAIA, Humane Society for Shelter Pets.)
For more info on these groups google:
The Center for Consumer Freedom Lies Exposed 60 Minutes
The Center for Consumer Freedom Lies Exposed Rachel Maddow
One of Humane Watch's strategies is to try and convince people that HSUS should give their money only to shelters instead of lobbying for humane laws.
Robert, HSUS's mission has *always* been national issues beyond the reach of local groups. Shelters help the victims of abuse - a short term solution. HSUS attacks the root causes of cruelty - a long term solution.
For example, many puppy mills have closed in those states that pass stricter puppy mill laws. In PA over 100 mills closed after passing humane legislation. That means that there will be less animals that end up in shelters.
HSUS gives millions every year to shelters, rescues, spay/neuter groups as well as their own sanctuaries, wildlife and rehabilitation centers, emergency shelters and mobile clinics - despite that not being their mission. They give way more than one half of 1% as Humane Watch says they do.
http://humanewatch.info/blog/shelter-contribs-2009/
The footage of the HSUS tv ad Silent Victims are not from shelters but from HSUS rescue disaster operations, large scale seizures and undercover HSUS video. Footage includes a variety of animals in different settings including dogs in mills, a downer cow being rammed with a forklift, a cat from a hoarder situation, and a horse in a coral.
Regarding HSUS pensions, HSUS had 55 employees in 2008. If we divide $2, 532 by 55 we get an average pension contribution of $4,562 - not excessive for an educated employee.
HSUS is the driving force behind humane legislation in this country. And that is the reason these animal industries pay millions for Humane Watch's campaign against HSUS. Humane Watch spends millions to discredit HSUS. They could just as easily give it to shelters.
Each year
Over 10 billion land animals suffer and die on factory farms.
Over 1 billion animals suffer and die in labs.
Over 10 million die suffer and die for fur.
Many millions more suffer and die in the horse slaughter industry, dog racing, trophy and canned hunting, circuses, puppy mill industry, etc.
Robert, are you saying these animals do not deserve protection under the law and only dogs and cats in shelters are worthy of being helped?
Are you saying that because HSUS gives more money to stop the corporate animal abusers than to shelters that people should not donate?
Are you saying that you support and believe Humane Watch, a group that represents the most cruel and abusive animal exploiters on the planet?
Are you putting down an entire organization and their efforts to stop animal suffering - including helping shelter animals - because they are not perfect and make mistakes?
Alex - do you work for the HSUS. Actually, at one time - likely to this day - the HSUS has hired people to check the Internet for criticisms and then "correct" them.
I have no problem with valid criticism of HSUS when it is based on truth.
When it is presented in distortions, half truths and lies, the real issues fail to be addressed.
Robert said HSUS's ultimate goal is to create a vegan world with no pets or domestic animals of any kind. This is an outright lie. His other "criticisms" were distortions and lies of omission. This is the propaganda created by Humane Watch, CCF that is meant to undermine, discredit and destroy.
No, I don't work for HSUS. I support them because legislation is the only way to protect animals from the cruelty inflicted upon them every day in the animal industries. HSUS has passed over 1000 anti-cruelty laws. More than 70% of HSUS backed ballet campaigns are successful. No wonder Humane Watch/CCF and the animal industry pay Humane Watch/CCF millions to try and discredit HSUS.
Interesting....Alex, I am sure the HSUS still does some good....HOWEVER, they are currently not what they represent to the public, and that legislation you speak often has unintended consequences (which do anything but protect animals). Count all the lawyers and lobbyists - I don't believe America knows that's where so much of the money goes. And I know how uneasy it is to play 'in the sandbox' with them, compared to other national organizations.
HSUS is totally upfront about their work.
HSUS is front and center in communicating their efforts about the work they do to protect animals. Their press releases cover a wide variety of animal protection issues - and go out to thousands of media outlets nationwide.
Just this week in the New York Times you can read about their efforts to retire chimps, as well as efforts to end cockfighting.
HSUS membership includes millions of people who get weekly alerts and postings about the work HSUS is doing.
Millions of HSUS supporters take action every day on a wide variety of animal protection issues. And tens of thousands of these advocates have joined HSUS to lobby on humane issues at their federal and state lobby days.
HSUS's membership magazine is called "All Animals", not "Dogs and Cats". Their logo features 19 different animals in the shape of the US - representing their work to protect all animals nationwide. Their logo is on all materials including mailings, videos and website.
The HSUS advertisement with Wendie Mallick (the one HSUS opponents claim is deceptive) does not have footage of even one shelter and the word shelter is never mentioned. Every time "your donation" is mentioned it's in conjunction with "fighting animal cruelty".
Footage is from rescue disaster operations, large scale seizures and HSUS undercover video.
Here is the advertisement scene by scene so people can judge for themselves
http://humanewatch.info/blog/silent-victims
I believe you underestimate the intelligence of HSUS supporters if you think we don't know about HSUS's work, including legislation, and know that lobbying is expensive.
Also here is a list of HSUS accomplishments for 2012. I don't see any that harmed animals.
http://www.humanesociety.org/about/overview/2011_accomplishments.html
I think you underestimate the intelligence of HSUS supporters if you think we don't know that part of HSUS's work involves lobbying for humane laws, and that it costs money.
HSUS membership includes millions of people who get weekly alerts and postings (through email, twitter, facebook, etc) about the work they're doing. Millions of HSUS supporters take action every day on a wide variety of animal protections issues.
And tens of thousands of these advocates have joined HSUS to lobby on humane issues at their federal and state humane lobby days.
HSUS is front and center in communicating their efforts about the work they do to protect animals. Their press releases cover a wide variety of animal issues, including legislative - and go out to thousands of media outlets nationwide.
HSUS supporters WANT HSUS to stand up to corporate animal abusers and make them accountable.
Yes, that means having a capable and dedicated legal team!
Yes! that means spending money!
Here is a list of HSUS accomplishments for 2011. Would you please explain how anything on here has harmful consequences for animals?
http://www.humanesociety.org/about/overview/2011_accomplishments.html
I too like Steve, once supported HSUS.
But when they support people like Michael Vick, and instigate a program with Vick to talk to kids about dog fighting, and offer kids
" incentives" for being in attendance, they lost me as a supporter.
Before anyone states Vick did his time and is remorseful.., you need to do some homework as to what Vick was convicted of, and what HE and others involved, admitted to as to Vicks involvement.
He openly admitted that he'd still be running his dog fighting operation if he wasn't caught. He continually continues relations with those he committed these crimes with.
When you actively involve yourself in the inhumane SLAUGHTER of animals, by methods one could only describe as Psychotic.., science shows that making a 180% turn if life is unlikely.
HSUS is utilizing his celebrity, omitting the truths behind what he did since they consistently gloss over the facts as what he EXACTLY participated in, and just says he was involved in a dog fighting operation.
I believe they even support him having a dog again in the future!
I'm sure they have done some good.., but they made a monumental mistake in aligning themselves with someone who tied car batteries to dogs and tossed them in to his swimming pool, amongst other atrocities.
No Thanks to HSUS!
Whether or not Michael Vick is sorry for his heinous crimes is something we'll never know. It's also irrelevant. What matters now is he is not involved in dog fighting, and he is educating inner city kids - and helping stop the cycle of violence.
This video show these kids REALLY LISTENING to Vick with wide eyes, and later, training their pit bulls in an HSUS sponsored training program with an emphasis on humane education.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaZ2P8oj0NI&feature=youtu.be
I was very upset when I heard HSUS was giving Vick this platform.
However, when I saw Wayne Pacelle speak, I found his reasons logical and compelling.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3gcz-ldBl8
or google You Tube HSUS willing to give Vick a chance
HSUS is doing more than anyone else to stop dog fighting:
-upgraded more than 40 laws, pushed for stricter penalties
-trained thousands of law enforcement officials on investigating animal fighting
-joined forces with law enforcement on more than 400 animal fighting operations
-launched humane education/pit training programs for at risk youth in Atlanta, Chicago and PA, more to come
-HSUS is the only animal group with an entire unit focused on ending dog fighting
HSUS is a hero to these dogs.
I understand your anger at Michael Vick and HSUS. I was initially very upset when I heard HSUS was giving Vick a platform. But when I saw Wayne Pacelle explain that decision, I found his reasons logical and compelling.
You can google You Tube HSUS Gives Michael Vick A Chance
Here's a video showing inner city kids listening, REALLY listening with wide eyes to Vick, and another clip with kids participating in an HSUS program that combines humane education with training pits bulls.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaZ2P8oj0NI&feature=youtu.be
Whether or not Vick is sorry for his heinous crimes can't truly be known.
I believe what is important now is that he's not involved in dog fighting, and he's helping at risk kids stop the cycle of violence.
That is turning something bad into something good. If something good can come from Vick speaking, his poor dogs will not have suffered in vain.
I believe HSUS is not only a hero to the dogs that will not end up fighting, but also a hero to these kids.
Sorry Alex but I completely disagree.
The footage is from the HSUS, it's propaganda for the project. Hero!? Hardly..,since this is the same organization that called for the destruction of ALL the Vick dogs when they were recovered. It was the efforts of Best Friends Animal Society and others that had to spend money to save them via the court system, against HSUS.
Sure, the idea that educating the children as to right from wrong as it pertains to animal care/rights sounds great, but it's a horse and pony show, rather than reality. I would of thought directing more attention of stiffer prosecution for those like Vick who SLAUGHTERED dogs and other animals would of rang truer.
Did you research anything about what happened at Bad Newz kennels? Apparently not!
Vick's subsequent run ins after his release show how he's not remorseful and his continual connection to those who were committing the same atrocities confirm that.
Vick is considered a expert now on anti dog fighting messages? Please!
Everything he says is scripted by lawyers, and HSUS. The HSUS could of picked any spokesperson to be the face of this project, but aligning themselves with someone like Vick showed how they prostituted themselves. These kids are there for the show, to see Vick, they are taking very little from this project after that fact.
I worked in areas that dog fighting is prevalent.., they have no fear of incarceration because they know how weak legislation is in convicting someone. Vick is a great example of that thanks to HSUS.
If you know anything about Human behavior, and the actual violence Vick committed in this case, you wouldn't of wanted anything to do with him.., yet HSUS skims over those facts, and actually wants intelligent people to slop up this propaganda sandwich while pulling in money for the effort.
They will never see a dime from me again, and I can tell you that goes for a growing number of others.
Huge PR blunder by HSUS.
Your belief that violent offenders can't change is as outdated as HSUS's previous dog fighting policy.
There is a significant reduction in recidivism - for even the most violent offenders - using cognitive behavioral therapy.
http://www.nij.gov/journals/265/therapy.htm
Also, neurobiology/brain research shows that empathy can be developed , and it's long been known that encouraging empathy inhibits violence. Vick has been in therapy since the beginning of his 3 year probation, and will continue until probation ends, possibly longer. He also had empathy training as part of his mandatory HSUS humane education.
It was the court that ruled Vick could own a dog once his probation ended, not HSUS.
But HSUS is doing everything in their power to ensure Vick is rehabilitated at that time. If he is not rehabilitated, HSUS would likely petition the court to deny him dog ownership.
However, rehabilitation is probable because Vick has the motivation to change, and the means to do so.
Trying to rehabilitate an animal abuser makes more sense to me than just shaking your fist at him in impotent rage. One is meaningful work to change the world, the other is futile self-indulgence.
Sorry Alex.., you have been reading too many fiction novels.
You are clueless as to what violent offenders think, do, and feel.
Your studies are as biased as your dedication to a organization that utilizes a violent offender for it's own money making agenda.
Anybody can follow blindly, as you do, studies such as the ones you post, that are neither complete, or accurate.
I suggest you do a ride a long with local big city police, and then give me your opinions.
You haven't a clue, and it's obvious!
You can have you rose colored viewed opinion, and I'll live in reality.
You still haven't answered to many of my comments, especially about how Vick admitted he'd still be dog fighting if not caught, and that he still befriends those that do! Doesn't sound as if he has remorse to me!
Don't have a clue what study you pulled out of your" brain", that claims that recidivism is down.., and is not proven, and has been debunked for some time.
Because some research student makes claims through some slanted study, does not make it true.
Wow.., you are easily fooled!
Good luck with that!
That Michael Vick would still be engaged in dog fighting had he not been caught is not only irrelevant, it's a given.
An animal abuser's egocentrism, immaturity, sense of entitlement, lack of self-control and moral reasoning abilities are the very traits that prevent him from changing on his own, or even seeking help to stop.
An animal abuser, such as Vick, does not have the capacity to change on his own without a major intervention and/or professional help. So stopping on his own is a moot point.
The link I posted showing that violent offenders can change is not an arbitrary study by a student.
It's a landmark Systematic Review consisting of 548 evidence based studies, implemented by Dr. Mark Lipsey, one of the foremost authorities in his field.
As a mental health professional I can say that Vick can most definitely be taught the moral reasoning and impulse control skills required to stop the cycle of violence.
Even if Vick is low in empathy/remorse, he can still become a law abiding and non-violent individual. As I said previously, he has the motivation and the means to do so.
We can argue endlessly about Vick's remorse, his friends, but it's irrelevant as long as he is no longer violent. (Also, there is no way to know if he is truly remorseful.)
Vick represents less than 1% of HSUS's work; he is merely one tool in their arsenal against dog fighting. To disparage the entire organization based on such a miniscule aspect of their work does not make sense to me.
I do agree with you 100% that Vick should not own a dog, EVER. But that was the court's decision, NOT HSUS's. (In a recent blog, Wayne Pacelle said his words were misrepresented in an article to make it sound like he said he believed Vick should own a dog one day, but he was referring to the court who said it.)
Most of HSUS's membership (including me) was against giving Vick a platform. But Wayne Pacelle took the course of action that would save the most dogs - even though he knew there would be a backlash. He put saving dog's lives above membership dollars.
Yes, HSUS makes mistakes but they learn from them and gain experience and wisdom to better protect animals. They do more to protect the billions of animals suffering from institutionalized cruelty and abuse than any other organization on the planet. They don't need to be perfect, they just need to do the job to the best of their ability. I can't ask for more than that.
But Alex.., HSUS along with PETA, I believe, pushed for the Vick dogs to be euthanized. Best Friends had to go to court to save them, against the advice of HSUS.
Doesn't sound like a organization looking out for the well being of the dogs, just their reputation.
I guess we can agree to disagree.
I'll just finish by saying, research articles are theory, not always reality!
I have worked as a Police officer, I have seen evil before, as well as the same criminals committing the same crimes over and over and over....
I tend to understand these facts more realistically, especially when I have seen it first hand, over those who research things second hand, and often times are quoting from criminals themselves, who aren't to be trusted to speak the truth.
I appreciate what you do, and believe there are some, when initiated by themselves, that can be re-educated so to speak.., but know by experience.., most can not.
It also doesn't help that high profile celebs should be afforded special treatment as Vick did, by keeping the heinous actions of Vick out of the spot light and omitted out of his character.
HSUS did not push to euthanize Vick's dogs.
HSUS opponents have grossly distorted the facts about this.
It was HSUS's policy that fighting dogs or those that were bred for fighting be put down. When HSUS was asked about their dog fighting policy, this was the one they had. At that time, most animal welfare agencies would have recommended the same thing.
HSUS gave over $20,000 to the Surry Animal Control Agency that was caring for Vick's dogs. Not all dogs were pit bulls, and HSUS took custody of 11 beagles and worked with the Virginia Beach SPCA to find them homes.
HSUS did raise money to provide care for Vick's dogs. As in the point above, money was distributed. But when HSUS put out the appeal for funds, it was *before* the federal government assumed responsibility for the majority of the costs for the dogs.
HSUS had no knowledge the federal government would step up - but even when they did, HSUS still gave the $20,000 to Surry County.
Since Vick's case HSUS has done more to help stop dog fighting than any other organization:
-upgraded 40 laws for harsher penalties
-trained thousands of law enforcement
-helped bust over 400 dog fighting rings
No organization (or person) is perfect. HSUS did not have an updated dog fighting policy because other campaigns took priority at that time. Most animal protection groups had the same outdated policy. When HSUS realized there was a more progressive policy, they changed.
HSUS does more for animals than any other group. Their humane laws are on record for all to see. And every year that passes they become better at what they do, passing more laws, helping more animals.
HSUS is not perfect, but they are perfect to the billions of animals whose lives are saved and protected because of HSUS.
Alex.., you say they didn't push to have the vick dogs put down, then in your next breath, you state their policy.
So the FACT is.., they DID advocate for these dogs to be put down.
It took court orders to stop it.
Get your facts straight!
HSUS does some good.., well they should being a multi million dollar enterprise.
They messed up big time using Vick.
They will continue to lose money from donors for it.
The thought process behind using Vick was a smack in the face to those of US out there who work hard for little to no money fighting to end dog fighting practices.
You can toot their horn all you wish.., they blew it!