Video: Closings Overview

ScreenHunter_01 Feb. 15 08.27Here's Wednesday night's WTTW Chicago Tonight segment about the closing list of 129 possibilities out of the original 330 potentials, and what happens between now and March 31st when the final list comes out, and then the Board votes.

Click below to watch the segment -- nothing you probably already don't know, but laid out pretty clearly and with some clips from various sides that might be useful to view.


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  • From

    "Questions Seth has for CPS regarding the closings:

    1) You’ve estimated $500K in savings per closed school. Does this mean closing 100 schools solves only 5% of the $1B CPS budget deficit?

    2) What data exist that shows closing underperforming schools results in academic gains for students?

    3) You say we have a “utilization crisis.” What data shows that a school’s being “underutilized” hurts student achievement?

    4) Chicago Consortium on Schools Research says in 94% of cases kids from closed Chicago schools didn’t go to “academically strong” new schools. Will this be different?

    5) Will you guarantee that no students from closed Level 3 schools will go to another Level 3 school?

    6) You say CPS mishandled its last round of 10 closings. Will you share your analysis of what went wrong, and how this will be different?

    7) Given that you included 5 of last year’s 10 turnaround schools on the new possible closings list, do you regret those turnarounds?

    8) Will you present your plan for where kids from each closed school will go before deciding whether or not each school will close?

    9) Have you hired management consultants to assist you in vetting schools for inclusion on the closings list? If so, who are they?

    10) How many CPS staff members are currently working on transition plans for 5,792 students with IEPs that may be impacted by closings?"

    ALEX: Can you get the answers for these questions?

  • In reply to district299reader:

    Seth, closing a school has been estimated to save an average of about $500,000 dollars. If CPS closes 100 schools, that would only save around 50 million dollars. That is only 1% of the entire CPS budget and only 5% of "the lie" one billion dollars CPS claims they are short next year. CPS is closing schools to privatize the school system and eliminate unions. Data shows that students are doing no better or worse when going to a new school because of school closings. CPS will send students from one level 3 school to another level 3 school as long as the receiving level 3 school is 1% better than the closing school.

  • The $500,000 is not a one time savings but per year going forward.

    The billion dollar deficit is largely due to deferred pension paymnents coming due. The billion is not immediately needed to cover current pension obligatios so "payment plan" could be negotiated - the $500,00 per year could go a long way towards that.

    The savings from consolidating 120 (not closing) schools helps to secure teachers' pensions who should be grateful that the mayor is actually doing something as oposed to shoving the can down the road again à la Daley and Quinn et al.

  • In reply to CPS Parent:


    "..the $500,000 per year, per school, could go a long way towards that."

  • In reply to CPS Parent:

    I question the $500,000 per year per school assumption. Because it does not take into consideration that leaving a building empty for even one school year will cost at least $100,000 per school. Nor does that $500,000 figure take into consideration the costs of demolition of the closed school if CPS decided to go that route.

    There are a few possible closures where CPS could quickly sell off either the property or possibly even the school and make money, Trumbull is one example along with a few of the other north side proposed closings. So for these schools the savings could be higher. But for most closed schools there is little interest in either the property or the school itself.

    Detroit has empty schools rotting away all over that town and the school district is completely under water. Closing the schools did not save that district, ask our CEO she ran that school district while it was collapsing.

    Rod Estvan

  • In reply to Rodestvan:

    Rod, for schools that are unsellable they can be transferred (for a dolar) to the city or a trust (maybe one of the mayors public/private partnerships) which becomes responsible for maintenance and security. By getting the expense off the CPS books (probably) the City will become rsponsible but that is better since the CPS income stream is fixed.

  • In reply to CPS Parent:

    I think you would have a hard time getting the city or anyone else to take the closed buildings off their hands. If the city took them, there will be the same type of maintenance costs adding more costs to the city's budget. If the cost is $100 grand per year, multiply it by 10 years it gets pretty expensive. Who will be willing to take that kind of responsibility on? Those closed buildings will be like an albatross hanging around and draining money from CPS. If you look where the majority of them are located, no one will want to touch them.

  • In reply to district299reader:

    The City has multiple ways to increase revenue to cover the relatively small cost of maintaining the closed buildings. CPS can't increase taxation, charge fees, issue bonds, etc. for this purpose. Use TIFF incentives to re-purpose them for public, private, or private not-for-profit use, sell them with property tax abatements. The City should do this not CPS. Anyway the cost of maintenance far outweighs the cost of keeping these unneeded schools open so this is a non-starter as an aguement to keep them school open. There may be other reasons but not this one.

  • In reply to CPS Parent:

    The City is, or will be, in just as bad of shape as the District, so why would the City do that? Plus remember most buildings are owned by the Public Building Commission, so any profits from selling the buildings would go to the PBC.

    While Seth's passion is admirable, this has nothing to do with kids, parents or taxpayers. The reality is that this is a poorly thought out 'plan' with no data or policy behind it. City Hall* is calling all the shots, CPS is just taking the blame. I personally think there is an excellent argument to be made to close some schools in areas of Chicago which have seen changes in population. However, the District is not making that claim really. They're just throwing random messaging at the wall and hoping that something, anything, sticks.

    *City Hall includes the people at CPS who don't work for CPS, only work at and get paid by CPS. And if one more person tries to tell me that City Hall and Rahm is "data driven" I'm going to scream... it's ALL messaging and politics in this city now.

  • The idea of moving capital losses to the city side of the ledger is totally unacceptable because it is the same tax payers that will pick up the tab in any case. CPS in the long run may save a relatively small amount of money by closing some schools especially if it levels the schools fast or sells them off fast.

    But in other cities that really hasn't happened and the school districts are stuck with the decaying schools. CPS has already done this and been down this road with the old Washburn trade school on west 31st street for many years. Following more than a decade of vacancy the building was finally destroyed. Prior to demolition, there was political turmoil regarding the use of the Washburne site.

    It is very unlikely these closings will save much money. Actually doing numerous closing at one stroke may cost more money than spacing them out over time.

    I went to college in of all places North Dakota after growing up in Chicago. North Dakota closed down many school districts and country schools due to declines in population, some towns argued that closing their elementary school would kill their towns. They were right in many cases it did.

    What is funny or sad is many of CPS's current arguments for consolidation are very old. Here is a link to a 1913 report called "The Consolidation of Rural Schools In North Dakota " It uses many of the same sort of arguments CPS is using 100 years later.

    Just like 1913 rural residents people living in Chicago communities impacted by closings believe that it will lead to the further decay of their communities. Just like in 1913 the authorities tell people all will be good and maybe the result will be the same -ghost towns. I have attached a link to one of many ghost towns in North Dakota where schools were closed it was called Balfour

    Rod Estvan

  • In reply to Rodestvan:

    Rod, I'm a tax payer and I'm for the costs of maintaining the closed schools to be funded by the City with some minimal increase in some fee or tax. I'm ok with that. CPS doesn't have the capability increase its revenue stream so therefore push the empty real estate to the City.

    The operating money saved per school going forward every year is where the savings is.Even if its only 400,000 per school over a ten year stretch that's half a billion (without interest) which may be close to what the pension shortfall could be.

    I respect your views on all things CPS but instead of looking backwards what is your (pragmatic and realistic) solution to CPS's budgetary woes going forward? Fiddling with the State income tax to benefit Chicago/CPS will never fly with non Chicago voters so don't suggest that (please).

  • In reply to CPS Parent:

    I'm unsure if CPS has stated a holistic and long-range strategy that includes closing schools. Chicago will increasingly look like Swiss cheese with larger and larger pockets of nothingness spreading out from these depopulated and marginalized pockets. What is the CITY'S plan for that?

  • In reply to district299reader:

    Here is what I know the city is doing to combat the issues you mention in the education realm:

    Re-focus on STEM - new STEM and IB programs in HS's

    Re-focus on vocational ed. - new vocational IB tracks , adding vocational tracks in City Colleges (both include hospitality tracks for instance)

    Adding more school choice - good students/parents in "bad" neighborhoods have better school choices in other neighborhoods

    Maybe there's more. These are both CPS and Mayoral initiatives that I know of.

  • In reply to CPS Parent:

    True choice isn't merely offering parents the option of draconian, yet safe charters or starved neighborhood schools. Support true neighborhood schools and you'll see few parents choosing the charter charade.

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    In reply to district299reader:

    What you are saying is roundly false. The pension payments have had zero to do with the budget deficit because CPS has gotten legislation to avoid paying their fair share. The choice to not pay bills has increased bills; not the obligations themselves.

    It ignores the fact that the district has lied about their financial state year after year and then wasted billions of dollars on patronage and politically driven decision making that has nothing to do with student achievement.

    A decent retirement for educators is not only just, it is also critical for retaining the best teachers long-term in the system (something that CPS is currently sabotaging).

    Charter schools, sweetheart construction deals, private PD contracts, HST, a parent unwanted longer school day, data cooking, bribed food contracts, non-opposing TIFs so that money can go to board members' own conglomerates, and school turnarounds are all examples of initiatives that there is no evidence that they are an efficient use of money for improving achievement.

    Remember--this is a district that won't even provide position numbers for neighborhood schools until well into the school year, and doesn't provide adequate funds or infrastructure to place substitute teachers when an educator becomes sick. It's a district that builds new schools while children are cooking or being rained upon in classrooms.

    It's a district that has decided that it wants to use its $5 billion for its wealthy corporate partners over the needs of its actual partners--the children of the city of Chicago and their parents.

    Again. A school district that doesn't seem concerned providing students with teachers on the first day.

  • In reply to Xian Barrett:

    The CTU propagandist returns.....

  • In reply to CPS Parent:

    How wrong you are--What Mr. Barrett says is true and to add: CPS has reduced school supply funds for basics like toilet paper, will not fix building basic needs, like student toilets, will not provide people to schools so they can be cleaned or employees for proper security, continues to pay out to Clark Street and the networks, huge salaries for inexperience and dictatorships, gives the networks more employees who will not support their schools as they try to teach better and get truant students to school. (Heard that a chief brought his 'team' to Disney on CPS time and money.) There is more. You are not a propagandist if what you say can be proven. Mr. Barrett is brave to speak truth to power.

  • In reply to CPS Parent:

    Well, at least he makes a good financial case for closing unnecessary schools.

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    In reply to CPS Parent:

    Wow, you sure have a lot of anonymous hate in you.

  • fb_avatar
    In reply to CPS Parent:

    I've shown my credibility here again and again. Neither of you have any credibility that you give one care for children at all.

    But you should have every opportunity to establish it. So just answer a few questions for me.
    1. Are there classrooms that children are sitting in for a day-3 months with no assigned teacher? Do you agree with that?
    2. Who should be able to make decisions about schools, parents, students and educators or appointed bureaucrats with no direct connection to any of the highest need schools?
    3. Do you believe in the deficit projections each year? Why or why not?
    4. Do you believe that charter schools should have oversight or is it ok for people who ran the mayor's campaign to use them as a source of financial benefit for themselves and their allies?
    5. Do you think school closings help achievement? Do you have evidence for this belief?
    6. Do you have any plan to prevent violence? Do you have any evidence that your supported proposal will improve this situation?
    7. Who are you? Are you capable of doing anything except snipe at people actually working to solve the problems you have created for our children?

  • fb_avatar
    In reply to CPS Parent:

    And of course, no response...

  • In reply to CPS Parent:

    You're expecting a response to rhetorical questions?

  • In reply to CPS Parent:

    Thank you Donn.

  • In reply to CPS Parent:

    The Donn/CPSS Parentt axis is hilarious.

    "CPS Parent"- not every question was rhetorical. Surely you can answer this query:

    Are you capable of doing anything except snipe at people actually working to solve the problems you have created for our children?

  • In reply to CPS Parent:

    "problems you have caused for our children".

    I caused poverty?
    I had no idea of my omnipotent awesomeness.
    I'll need to rethink my somewhat passive approach as a proponent of school reform. Perhaps I should just be issuing orders for school improvement.

    I am pro Xian, btw. I don't think he's a "propagandist". I think he wants better. A compassionate teacher is almost always a good teacher. I also don't disagree with most of the concerns he expressed
    in his rhetorical questions.

  • In reply to CPS Parent:

    Donn- II wass replyingg too CPSS Parentt, nott youu. Don'tt overestimatee yourr chicagonow.comm mojoo. Youu aree aa bitt off aa dullardd.

  • In reply to Xian Barrett:

    CPS Parent is such an obvious shill. C'mon, you chose the name "CPS Parent"? You got to be joking. You've been outed time and again as a faker.

  • In reply to Xian Barrett:

    CPS isn't plowing or salting parking lots at some schools. It used to be completed at my school by 7 a.m. after a snow. We have already had one teacher slip and fall.

  • In reply to district299reader:

    I'm guessing CPS Parent is a real parent and a long-time Chicagoan who lives in a middle-class neighborhood. Just my imagination.

  • In reply to district299reader:

    For years, I paid, as did all of the employees at my school, to have the lot plowed....$20.00 to $ receipts....just pay the clerk....principal said not to park in the lot if you didn't police officer husband was one school with 100 plus employees we were told by the principal to pay five dollars month so a minister could patrol the parking lot to keep the cars from being stolen... I transferred.....CPS does many illegal/unethical things and there are no consequences....

  • In reply to district299reader:

    Paying to plow? I'm sorry, but that's so ridiculous I laughed. I think some principals moved on to "private" vending machines. At least that's extorting students taste for junk food rather than teacher's pay.

  • In reply to district299reader:

    It use to be that the individual schools would have to contract a private company to plow the parking lot and blacktop playground. The staff who used the parking lot had to help pay for it since CPS didn't cover snow plowing. Previous to that, it was the city who plowed the lots but only if they were finished with the streets and it was to just get some cars in the lot.
    Then CPS signed a contract with a company (s) to plow lots when the snow was over 2 inches. Schools were told not to contract others. Now they come when they feel like it.
    Previously the city would pick up all the garbage from the schools. Now the schools have to pay for a private company to pick up the garbage.

  • AN IVY LEAGUE CRITIC: A Yale University freshman from Chicago addresses what has become known as the "UNO scandal" in the Yale Daily News, writing: "UNO is shady and possibly participating in illegal activities, but gets away with it because its charter school network status allows it to avoid following the same financial standards that public schools do."

  • I hate to say it but I agree with the Civic Federation of Chicago's approach to examining taxes in Chicago and other areas. It looks at the combined taxes for all taxing bodies, because it is the total impact that drives the cost of living in a city like Chicago. Hence transferring abandoned schools from one entity to another is pointless.

    As I have said many times before I am not opposed to closing schools in areas that are depopulated. But let's not lie about the impact on those communities, it won't be good. Just like Balfour N.D. closing schools in some communities will be be a killer for areas already falling apart. Will keeping schools open prevent the decline of those areas, my answer is no unless there is a serious development plan including jobs. Mayor Emanuel has no such plan and TIFs are being used in what only can be called a haphazard manner in all areas not relatively close to the Loop.

    Also lets not lie about the impact on receiving schools or as CPS calls them welcoming schools. In order to optimize space class rooms that have been used for many useful purposes such as conference spaces, pull out remedial rooms, even spaces for teachers to work, and on and on will have to be converted to instructional spaces. These new surviving schools will not be either fun places to work or to go to school.

    There are situations where if only one school is closed and merged into two different schools that the impact will be minimal. But folks that is not what we are talking about here, we are talking about moving to a rationed education system particularly for poor children and unless the pressure is kept up on CPS and the city government that is where we are headed very rapidly.

    Rod Estvan

  • In reply to Rodestvan:

    Your talking about a single elementary school in a ND town. In Chicago we're talking about a dozen schools in a small area. I've noticed opponents of closing these schools avoid maps. It's rather amazing how many schools occupy some neighborhoods.

    As far as rationing education, when has that not been true for everyone using public schools? Students only experience optimal class size by chance.

  • fb_avatar
    In reply to Donn:

    So being rich has nothing to do with getting smaller class size?

  • In reply to Donn:

    Visit Detroit recently, Donn?

  • I used to pay to have my school's lot plowed,too. After the first year, I stopped paying and just parked on the street because it made me so mad. I was already purchasing toilet paper for my entire classroom, had funded the classroom library of nearly 1000 books, bought math curriculum (because we didn't have any), and was regularly buying clothes and coats for kids who couldn't afford them. The $30 a year for plowing pushed me over the edge. So glad I got out of that school.

  • teacherparent-I totally understand-the public has no clue as to how much money CPS teachers spend out of pocket-it is ridiculous-the latest is Universal Breakfast which is held in the classrooms-no cleaning supplies are provided so the teachers buy them so the desks aren't sticky all day....unbelievable...and nothing changes....

  • Supplies money is badly reduced-teachers are asking students to have parents bring toilet paper to school now. As for the juice machines, schools need the money to buy basic items from this money. breakfast in teh classroom--schools have critters that come and eat with the students too!

  • The vending machines must be through the company that now has a contract with CPS. Schools no longer can own their own vending machine or stock them on their own. If the vending company decides that they are not making enough money to service or keep said machines in the school, they remove them.
    My school use to have our own vending machine for teachers only use. The profit was used to for teacher supplies, and extras needed. Then the school was told to remove them and use the contracted company. After six months, the company removed the machines stating not enough profit for them. By the way, we had no say in what was being stocked in those machines.

  • In reply to ladyfair:

    The MBA'ing of CPS.

  • In reply to district299reader:

    The business model is a failure. After all, over 50% of businesses fail in the first year.

  • In reply to ladyfair:

    Does Dawes School have their own soda machine in the building?

  • is there a plan to close schools that have less students so that more people will move out of these very poor neighborhoods?
    (They can move to the next poor neighborhood where their kids will be forced to go to school.)
    Does this make sense if you are the mayor? With acres abandoned, less city services are needed, less aldermen too.

  • What is going to grow in all those abandoned pockets of the city?

  • Q: What is going to grow in all those abandoned pockets of the city?

    A: Condos and brewpubs... at least that is what the mayor and his developer sponsors dream of. Gentrification is hard is you got a lot of wild shorties running around.

  • In reply to district299reader:

    Condos and brewpubs are preferable to the ever increasing pockets of nothingness. Rising property values is preferably to no one wanting to live in an area

    Anyone who believes that school closing are some sort of property scheme is an extreme optimist.

  • In reply to Donn:

    What's happening with all the new residential building that's gone in (and is still going into) the area south of IIT, an area that was scraped of all its housing projects? Who's moved in and will they have children who grow up in those new developments? Where will they attend school if they stay? Anyone know?

  • In reply to district299reader:

    If they're still building, somebody is expecting to make money. But plenty of people lost money speculating in Bronzeville over the last ten years.

  • In reply to Donn:

    I agree with Donn about this much. In most of the areas that are very likely to face school closings they are likely not part a big gentrification process.

    Gentrification requires investors and in Chicago quick and relatively easy access to the Loop. Numerous areas of the south side that are deteriorating are simply too far out for rapid real estate development. For example, Auburn Gresham one of the 77 official community areas, which located on the far south side of the city of Chicago, Illinois with 79th street at its heart.

    I taught in that community, at what is now Perspectives as Calumet. Rev. Michael Pfleger's church is in this community and it is 98% African American with a median household income of $34,767 compared to the median income national income which was about $50,502 in 2011.
    Since 1970 this community area has lost 20,377 residents or a population drop of 23.5%.

    There have been some attempts at reviving the 79th street corridor. Target Area Development Corp., a small faith-based non-profit attempted starting in 1995 tried to rebuild the business strip along West 79th Street between Halsted Street and Ashland Avenue. If you go down 79th street today you can see some of the improvements made to the street, but in terms of viable business development it failed, not one brew pub either. Even the Nation of Islam gave up on one project.

    The Greater Southwest Industrial Corridor (East) TIF which encompasses part of Auburn Gresham was authorized by the city in 1999. The major achievement of this TIF was the conversion of a former illegal dump where a TIF helped fund into a $54 million, 2.8 million-square-foot plastics manufacturing facility for a company called Stylemaster. This company hired 450 people and then cut its workforce back to 150. On March 18, 2002, Stylemaster filed a voluntary petition under Chapter 11 of the Bankruptcy Code. Eventually Stylemaster began to use Harborquest Inc., a Chicago-based non-profit that operates a for-profit staffing agency with a mission to prepare people for jobs. StyleMaster stiffed $50,000 in wages owed to Harborquest contract employees and closed up.

    There has also been an attempt to attract college educated African Americans to Auburn Gesham by creating a bed room community linked to a new Metra rail stop at W. 79th street and this failed too.

    By no means is Auburn Gresham an abandoned community, but property values are in the tank for even very well kept single family homes. The average single family home in Auburn Gresham before the crash in 2008 was $140,250 and declined to about $69,000 by 2011. The values have crept up slightly since then. There is no happy gentrification story for this community I can assure you.

    Rod Estvan

  • In reply to Rodestvan:

    What are Emanuel's plans for such communities?

  • In reply to district299reader:

    Bronzeville is close enough to the center city to take a shot at gentrification, Auburn Gresham is not. For many parts of Chicago the gentrification strategy is not real at all. So this leads directly to the Mayor's plans for development of Auburn Gresham, which was a great question.

    Mayor Emauel's basic development plan written last Feburary is summarized at

    The plan looks to the so called next economy. It Arguies that knowledge-related service sectors comprise nearly 75% of the economic output of developed economies today. But what is most interesting is that this report does not actually discuss a community like Auburn Gresham rather is talks about the Chicago metro area including suburbs in a very generalized way.

    There is talk in the report of advanced manufacturing in the Chicago metro area and the need for linked education to develop such a sector. But why would, let us say a young adult who went to Simeon Career Academy High School, and went on to community college who gets a suburban job in advanced manufacturing want to buy a house in Auburn Gresham?

    There is nothing in the Emanuel plan that would lead one to believe that advanced manufacturing would want to be located inside the City of Chicago. We already went down the path in the Auburn Gresham area with Stylemaster of trying to use tax breaks and TIFs to attract and hold even a small minority owned industry.

    The plan Emanuel plan also discusses developing employment by linking up research Universities with new innovations to drive jobs. But these jobs are heavily for college graduates from competitive colleges and right now even the most optimistic vision for the bulk of urban college graduates is that they go to and complete a degree at a less competitive college like Chicago State or Northeastern.

    While I have my disagreements with Rev. Michael Pfleger his view on the Auburn Gresham community is to start with stabilization of family structures and create a higher level of intollerance for criminal activity like street gangs. I think because his church is composed of stable good families many of whom live in Auburn Gresham he believes they are representative of the majority of the residents.

    I think Father Pfleger fails to understand or choses to ignor that gang culture and structures run deep inside of many extended families. There are now many 15 year old CPS students that have grand parents or have a grand uncle who were once Gangster Disciples. They may tell the kids to stay away from the drug boys, and about the mistakes they made in their lives, but they too walked the path of a gangster. Job placement counselors at the Urban League's Employment, Training, and Counseling Department estimate that half of their 3,742 predominantly Black clients last year listed felony records as a leading barrier to employment.

    The problems in an area like Auburn Gresham are very deep so I think while the report titled a Plan for Economic Growth and Jobs discusses the need for better education it lacks any understanding of what to do. It talks in broad sweeps without dealing with real communities. The schools that are potentially being closed will be in real communities.

    Rod Estvan

  • Chicago Teachers' Pension Fund (CTPF) Funding History: Prior to 1995, the CTPF received revenue directly from the City of Chicago based on an annual property tax levy. This levy ensured a steady stream of revenue was available to boister investments and support pensioners. For many years, the State of IUllinois also provided a stable and substanial revenue source for CTPF. State contributions failed to keep up with inflation and fell dramatically in recent years. Illinois lawmakers who approved the 1995 law understood that the Fund could not survive indefinitely without revenue. The law offered two "Safety Net" features. 1. The General Assembly agreed in principle to make a contribution to CTPF in an amount equal to 20-30% of the State contribution to Teachers' Retirement System of Illinois (TRS). 2. When CTPF funding fell below 90% the Board of Education would have to resume contributions. Instead of increasing as promised, CTPF funding from the State of Illinois has fallen dramatically since 1995. CTPF now receives less than 1 cent for every dollar contributed to TRS. This legislation cost CTPF $1.2 billion in revenue. Extending the period to fund pensions will cost Illinois taxpayers an additional $12 billion. The funding schedule under PA 96-0889 is scheduled to escalate in 2014. CPS has already told the fund (CTPF) that it will have difficulty meeting these payments. PA 89-0015 established that when the CTPF funded ratio fell below 90% the primary employer Board of Education (BOE) would have to resume making contributions. BOE was required to contribute beginning in 2006. Board contributed in 2006-2010, but sought additional "relief" for 2011-2013. CPS owed CTPF $600 million/year; but paid only $200 million/year. This move cost the retirement plan about $2 billion. Additional pension "relief" granted in 2010 cost CTPF an additional $1.2 billion. Presently CTPF is 53% funded. The average pension for CTPF member with 28 years of srvice is $41,584. CTPF members DO NOT receive social security.

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