A Fan's Thoughts on a Possible Work Stoppage

The NFL, as it stands today, is the most successful sports league in the history of the civilization.  It laughs at the NBA, mocks NCAA everything sports in its diary and pays the NHL clean its bathroom every other weekend.  Baseball is only referred to as our "national pastime" because the people who write that phrase in newspaper and speak it on television are of a certain generation and usually a pale-like complexion.  (Ask a 40 year-old black man in one of the shitty parts of Newark, NJ if baseball is his national pastime?  Then get the hell out of the shitty part of Newark, believe me.)  You don't need to trust me on this.  When a Monday night football game between two mid-market clubs like the Tennessee Titans and the Jacksonville Jaguars beats an ALCS game featuring the New York Yankees, one corner has to throw in the towel.

Nobody wants a work stoppage.  Nobody wants to see free agency delayed in March or an inability to trade talent during the April draft.  Nobody wants OTAs or training camp time reduced, as we've already seen teams struggle enough to start seasons with their abundance of prep time.  The NFL has become a full-year endeavor and for those of us who love it, there's never enough.  My beliefs and opinions are not merely academic and almost never objective.  They are heartfelt and wildly subjective when it comes to the Chicago Bears.

I'm willing to state unequivocally that the NFLPA needs to stand firm, stay resilient and refuse to work under their current economic conditions.  There is just so much wrong with how NFL players are handled. 

  • Because of salary cap restrictions and the lack of a rookie pay scale, the day-to-day NFL player makes less than Kyle Farnsworth while unproven rookies enter the league with 20+ million signing bonuses. 
  • Because of roster rules, teams are forced to put players with a broken arm in Week One on IR even if they might be able to return in December for meaningful games.  (It is time for baseball-style 4 game, 8 game and full season injured lists.)
  • The NFL needs to increase roster sizes and practice squads and they need to alter rules to allow teams to protect the players on the practice squad.  This should also be an interest for owners who'd prefer not having injuries cripple a season.
  • The NFL pension/health care system post-career is absurd.  In order to earn post-career benefits a player must become vested with four credited seasons.  These are men who put their brains and bodies at risk for the enjoyment of us and the pocket books of owners and it should be legally demanded that their health care needs be protected after a single full season in the league.  (We're often talking about pensions of only about ten grand or so.)
And this is just the start.  The NFLPA has done a terrible job over the years protecting the long-term financial and physical security of its members.  There are those of you who can't get worked up emotionally over "millionaire athletes" and I understand that.  But if you love this game and you must support the reason the you love it: the players.

Filed under: Uncategorized

Tags: CBA, Chicago Bears, NFLPA

Comments

Leave a comment
  • First to say I don't care how the Billionare's vs the Millionares figure this thing out, just that they do and we don't miss any games.

  • I'll say wait a second to the owners and ask them to open up the books. It's time.

    Big thumbs up on the long term player health care too.

  • In reply to sjvl:

    I have very little hope they will get this thing together in three weeks though.

  • In reply to sjvl:

    I say pay each player a commission based on a predetermined position formula to include a franchise net revenue multiplier. That would shut the Players Union and the Owners up at the same time.

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    'Predetermined position formula'? Good luck with that, Trac.

  • In reply to sjvl:

    So Peyton Manning and Tom Brady get paid the same as Trent Edwards and Jimmy Clausen?

    What if the starter gets hurt halfway through the season? Todd Collins gets paid the same as well?

  • In reply to mottystone:

    I meant to include a position stat category with a sliding scale multiplier based 100 percent on performance plus a Franchise Net Profit multiplier. Would even love to see the players lose money if the club loses money. I think that would add wonderful twist.

  • In reply to mottystone:

    looking at a picture of Todd Collins makes my blood pressure rise. Why the fuck was he in the game instead of Hanie for the 3rd quarter? that fucking cocksucking motherfucking pice of shit pussy ass fuck stick scarecrow. what a waste of 2 badly needed offensive series. FUCK.

  • In reply to mottystone:

    What if people stop going to the games and watching them on TV? Should the players still get paid? Hmmm, verrry interesting, so much to consider. Yep, there will be a lockout.

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    I still disagree with the premise of your argument. You are asssuming that every team valus every position or every stat the same. And that just isn't true and shouldn't be true.

    Football philosophy is a big part of what makes teams different and keeps games interesting. The contracts given to players are often a reflection of that philosophy. Look at Oakland... there was a difference of opinion on the value of a shut down corner and now we have a big free agent on the market.

    I like a salary cap and veteran minimum because it forces teams to work within certain boundaries. But I also like the idea of flexibility in deciding how much to value free agents.

    I do not have a problem, however, with setting salaries as a percentage of team revenue or of the salary cap. That, I agree, is worth considering.

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    Yes, Trac, the players should still get paid. The owners will.

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    "What if the Sun rose in the West tomorrow?"

    People went to see REPLACEMENT players.

  • In reply to sjvl:

    Its hard to actually see this thing get done soon, considering the fact that both sides are just as greedy as the other. Players take your 2-3 billion cut and accept. You get to play the game you love and get paid a buttload for it also. I seen no problem with that.

  • In reply to sjvl:

    Valid points, , Blogfather.
    The I.R. "You're done for the year" rules have always mystified me.

    I just assume both sides will pontificate and posture run right up until they reach the very edge of the abyss before coming to any kind of settlement.

  • In reply to sjvl:

    They're still in the bluffing stage. Very little actual negotiating is happening right now.

    I am very curious which side is actually against whole-life health insurance. I would think the owners would actually appreciate something like that because it looks so good from a PR perspective and keeps money out of the hands of 22 year old millionaires that didn't go to college for their brains.

    The roster size issues sound more like they are a result of owners being afraid of each other. Players likely want a bigger roster since more guys keep their jobs. The IR rule also seems like something nobody would really oppose. I guess small market owners are worried about large market owners keeping more talent on their teams, but that is what the salary cap is for.

    So yeah... I'm confused about who has what position on a lot of this stuff. But I do know that the owners need to open the books. That is for sure.

  • In reply to mottystone:

    You're theories are intriguing to me. I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter.

  • In reply to sjvl:

    Great post Jeff!

    I have to admit I have a very bad case of doublethink when it comes to this issue. Mostly because I find the relationship between players to be symbiotic by definition. They can't live without each other at this point. It's not American style football that fans are in love with (see USFL, XFL, UFL et al); it is the NFL. The mythos that accompanies the league and its more storied teams is something beyond the imagination. Even if it isn't real per se it is definitely palpable. It is quite fitting that Ed Sabol be inducted into the hall of fame this year because he helped create this beast we all pay homage to on Sundays in the fall and winter months. But I fail to see how a shortened or lost season will be the downfall of the NFL.
    The players don't have anywhere else to go and that sucks. The owners don't want second rate talent and should be willing to pay to avoid putting scrubs out on the field. If it takes a little work stoppage to create a meaningful and lasting solution to these issues I'm willing to accept that.
    Please someone listen to the points that Jeff made about IR and rosters. If this league is even remotely considering an 18 game season then it would be ridiculous to not implement all of those suggestions and maybe even more.

    The real downfall of the NFL will be the long term health of players which I'm a little ambivalent about. The owners on the one hand tend to treat the players as chaff from the grist. But players make enough (even at minimum) to provide for themselves a reasonable amount of health and life insurance. I have heard many players say as much. They talk about the real risks that they knowingly undertake when they decide to play football. The real issue is whether this league is even viable long term. The overwhelming research coming in on a yearly basis about the lasting effects of impact damage on the human brain is too much to ignore.

    You may want to read a little Malcolm Gladwell on the subject:

    http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/10/19/091019fa_fact_gladwell
    (The title is sensationalist, but the article itself is insightful.)

    How can we merely call the owners to the carpet on this issue when the players are willingly subjecting themselves to this abuse for profit? Can't we also take players to task for choosing this profession for themselves? If the aim of the players is to secure more compensation then I'm fine with that. But the grandstanding on the part of the players and the exploitation of former players in ill health is pretty sickening if you think about it. No amount of healthcare whether paid by the owners or self paid by the players can prevent the inevitable decline of an American football player. It is the risk they knowingly undertake for profit and/or glory. No matter if they are an all star or a journeyman each player is individually responsible for the consequences of their career choices.

  • In reply to buckbear:

    Wow, wow and wow on that article, buck. I see it differently and feel the need for long-term care is even more important than I did before. There need to be some changes made to protect players' heads more thoroughly. Wow. The part about the brain injury sustained in practice is truly amazing. My son won't be playing football, that is for sure.

  • In reply to sjvl:

    That is the first thing I thought when I read that article. "My kid will never play organized football" That's why I feel a little conflicted about my enjoyment of the sport. There would be a "The Duke" sized hole in my heart if NFL football ceased to be.

    http://goo.gl/LB6kz

  • In reply to buckbear:

    Very depressing. I went back and read it again. I now can't really imagine a longer season and want the players to get every cent and concession imaginable.

  • In reply to buckbear:

    hate to say this, but NFL in the UNITED STATES is the most popular and lucrative sport. around the world? soccer is king.

    Man U & Man City match the other day (where Rooney did the bicycle kick). the salaries for both clubs (including transfer and loan fees) was $800 million. that's no typo. $800,000,000. and that's just 2 clubs. Football isn't doing it that big (hell is horse-racing)?

  • In reply to FQD1911:

    38 game schedule FQ, plus several tourny's. England is a one sport Country. That's how they do it.

  • In reply to FQD1911:

    Clay Matthews was just interviewed backstage on the Grammy website. When asked what kind of music he is into he said everything. He said that if you put his iPod on shuffle you would hear Justin Bieber to Kanye West. What a douche.

  • In reply to TheFifth:

    Hey Cor, do you mean you don't have the Biebs on your I-pod? Not a big fan of Rap/Hip-Hop (too old, too white) but I'd take that over Pop music any day. Have a hard time getting too invested in a 15 year-old giving me lessons on love.

  • In reply to TheFifth:

    Exactly corm.

    Guy's a fucking meathead... great player, but a meathead.

  • In reply to TheFifth:

    "I always go with the Bieber or Paula Abdul at spinning class. But sometimes ... I'll just go 'What the hey!' and I'll rock out to Olivia Newton John."

    - What Jack Handey would say.

  • In reply to IrishBearsFan:

    Jack can sure pick 'em!

  • In reply to TheFifth:

    Say it ain't so, Joe ...

  • In reply to TheFifth:

    This is simple - player contracts are an open secret; owners books are not. Why would that be? Yet, who shut the CBA down early? Weird. Unless the books are completely embarrassing, one would think they would do nothing but help the owners case.
    Hmm.

  • In reply to MikeBrownhadaPosse:

    Pitfalls abound, don't they?

    I am definitely interested in the books. Remember the allusion to teams that are 'broke'. Can't help but wonder about that.

  • In reply to sjvl:

    There's broke and "cashing in your pop bottles" broke. I'm guessing the owners definition of broke is the former.

    Hope the players can hang on long enough to make the owners blink.

  • In reply to CanadaBear:

    I've been reading since I posted that comment, Canada. Definitely the former, based if nothing else, on the money paid by the networks before any football is even played.

  • In reply to CanadaBear:

    SJVL... I swear Jay Cutler looks just like Alec Baldwin!!!

  • In reply to Bears85Sweetness23:

    Nah. Better.

  • In reply to Bears85Sweetness23:

    More rike Arec Bardwin if you ask me.

  • In reply to Mastodon:

    Asian?

  • In reply to CanadaBear:

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_localchi/20110209/ts_yblog_localchi/hoge-bears-mock-draft-1-0

    I like the wideout we are looking at

  • In reply to Bears85Sweetness23:

    I think that guy is on dope. He really think our biggest needs are
    1.) another interior lineman converted to Tackle
    2.) another midget DB
    3.) another 6foot nothing WR with marginal speed

    we already have those exact things at those exact positions

    1.) Omiyale
    2.) Moore
    3.) Bennett

    I know I am going way out on a limb here but we should probably try to get things we don't already have at those positions.. like skill or size or just imagine both.

  • In reply to dutsami:

    You're wrong on Bennett

  • In reply to dutsami:

    I earned my degree in finance at a respeced Catholic university. I came out of college all gun-ho and capitalist, but have made my life's work in the non-profit sector - most significantly in the field of domestic violence/sexual assault survivor services provision. I have also spent some time working with affordable housing in my community.

    I am a mom, a wife, a daughter, a diehard feminist, political activist, avid reader, Italian woman who loves to argue, and to some people's utter disbelief, a complete and total Bears fan.

    My final break with religion came when someone I trusted most in the world at that time said the reason I had a miscarriage was because I was a heathen. Obviously there were other contributing factors, but that was the complete and total end. I have never looked back.

    I try to be a 'live and let live' type of person, and adhere to my own moral compass. I don't need anyone to tell me what to think or believe, thank you very much. I hold back a lot of comments because this is a 'guy site' and there will be macho blowhard whatever, and that's to be expected. I do enjoy talking football with you and I have learned a lot.

    The article comparing dog fighting to football has haunted me since I read it. No, the two are not the same, but there are similar threads. What really bothers me is the long-term injury sustained by the players - many of whom never even see the NFL - and I am having trouble seeing the purpose. Couple that with the current CBA/lockout crap, and I find myself confused about the sport entirely. I will never look at it the same way again.

    I am rethinking my position and my literal identity at this point. I am known far and wide as a Bears fan - people who barely know me know that one fact about me. I wonder how much longer I will be a football fan at all. And this makes me really sad. Nauseated sad.

  • In reply to sjvl:

    And by the way:

    I do not, and will not 'forgive' Michael Vick. Sure, he's been good so far, time will tell.

    Sancize needs to quit cruising the high school parking lots and see women his own age. Legal or not, that's just bullshit and everybody knows it.

  • In reply to sjvl:

    Well, as Jimmy Mac is my avatar I should point out that he was also my tipping point.

    MBHP's argument that dogs don't know but humans know what they are getting into breaks down on the Jimmy Mac case.

    McMahon simply does not - and can not - remember large parts - weeks and months - of the 85 season. He watches old tapes and does not remember the game, the situation - much of anything about it.

    I don't think he had any idea getting into the NFL that a possible end result was early dementia. He's not there (yet) but his loss of memory cannot be chalked up to any other reason outside brain trauma.

    For a long time, I wished upon technology's star. I honestly thought those helmets with the slots along the sides were gonna help greatly. Now, I just do not think it is possible. G forces are too great.

    I don't know what the answer is, but if the stats building up year over year are showing what the doctors say they are showing - then the game must change.

    I don't want to watch flag football either - but if it takes making everybody look like bobble head doll out there - then we do it.

  • In reply to gpldan:

    Boxing will have to change first. It's by far more brutal than football. But it won't happen in a free society. If grown men want to risk life and limb for a paycheck, who gives a rats ass. Should we legislate away stuntmen? How about Deep See fishing? We can't legislate away danger (not that you're proposing that) but grown men and women can choose to participate or not. Now amateur sports could use a changing, I'll grant you that.

  • In reply to DocNitty34:

    I should say, YOUTH amateur sports.

  • In reply to gpldan:

    I'm guessing if you subtract football from the equation, Jimmy Mac is still suffering from some memory loss. The guy is a huge drunk and a weedhead. A friend of mine played in a golf outing with him, and he drank a beer and smoked a hitter every hole, literally every hole. Then he mooned the halfway house at 9.

  • In reply to sjvl:

    Vick canceled his Oprah appearance today. I think he realized Oprah was going to bring a shepard in to bite him, then finish the show by having the audience look under their seat - everybody gets a schnauzer!

  • In reply to gpldan:

    You are a sick, but absolutely hilarious person, sir. I have already subscribed to your newsletter.

  • In reply to sjvl:

    SJVL - i wouldn't take it that far. Every culture has events, rites of passage, sports and other obligations help shape it's identity and it's people. Football is a sport but it is much more than that. Kids learn discipline and how to develop strength both physical and mental. Team building, leadership, independence and also reliance on your fellow brother lining up next to you.

    My father excelled in the sport and taught me how to play from a young age. He taught me to play the game the right way and then i had the privelege to have one of the best mentor's/coaches ever all through gradeschool. I got injured because I chose to ignore what i was taught. The game will evolve. The safety of the game will evolve. Make no mistake about it though. This game does more than just entertain. I learned how to pick myself up and compete by playing football. I learned how to deal with defeat and how to handle victory. I had a ton of fun and experienced heartache as well when i was told i couldn't play anymore. I wouldn't give it back for anything because the game helped shape who i am today. Don't give up on the sport because it is going through growing pains. The sport is evolving and will be better for it as we come out on the other end.

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    I wasn't allowed to play organized football, but all the things you say I saw from friends playing and from coaches I knew well. Football kept a lot of my friends off the streets, out of gangs and other trouble.

    I am afraid that may be the 'old school' way, johnny. I think I may be in love with an idea that doesn't exist anymore.

  • In reply to sjvl:

    it still exists. there is just so much more "noise" than there was in the past. So many more distractions for kids today but make no mistake about it that it still has it's place.

    Personally I feel we should mirror Israel and have 3 years of mandatory military service after highschool so our kids get a little taste of reality before going to college and doing beer bongs all day. I didn't serve in the military but would have been even better off for it. Unfortunately as a 33yr old, me saying this sounds convenient as i am not 18 anymore but i think they could find a some level of service for an old man like me.

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    Living in a college town as I do, I have to agree with you.

    I will, at the ripe old age of 47, volunteer to be a drill sergeant. I think I would be good at it, and would definitely enjoy my work. lol.

  • In reply to sjvl:

    Israelis who finish the army do all their beer bonging after the army. Except post-army they have some savings and are independant enough to travel the world. There are plenty of disillusioned Israelis in Thailand, India, even the US. The army is not a panacea.

    The other issue with the army in the US, is that there are very specific values that they push on soldiers. Some of the values are great - work hard, be respectful, keep yourself in good shape. But some of the values are not the army's business - many Israeli soldiers get a lot of anti-"tradition" pressure from peers and superiors. The US has a famous case where the army was not obligated to allow one soldier to wear his yamulkah. That's not okay... for any religion.

  • In reply to mottystone:

    maybe we can change 3 years of military service to some civil service?

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    Now that would be great. There are so many organizations that could use help.

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    The problem with that is when you force someone to do something you don't always get their best efforts. As someone who served in the Army Reserves for 6 years I can tell you there were a few guys that (even though they enlisted freely) had a bad attitude and wanted out. Their attitude would affect other younger,impressionable soldiers who then too would become a problem. imagine a bunch of degenerates doing this, it would become anarchy. I had some great people I served with but I believe that was due to the fact they served because they loved their country and wanted to serve willingly.

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    I remember someone bringing that concept up on a national stage recently and some fairly heated political rhetoric followed. I happen to think it's a great idea.

  • In reply to mottystone:

    My husband and his entire family are Jewish. I am familiar with the struggles military members face with regard to religion, holidays, etc.

  • In reply to sjvl:

    [shocked face] The plot thickens.

  • In reply to mottystone:

    Meh.

  • In reply to mottystone:

    The Academy in Colorado Springs is an even better example.

  • In reply to mottystone:

    Yes but he could wear his star of david I bet. The reasoning for the yamulkah would probably be that the military wants everything to be uniform. I had an instance when the Army switched to berets and I lost mine. Instead of showing without my beret, i wore my old camoflauge field cap. I was warned that I was out of uniform and another offense would put me under consideration for an article 15 (which is a way they can demote or with hold pay). I was an E-5 sergeant at the time so it's not like I was a private or anything, I had rank. All I'm saying is that in my experience I saw no religious persecution. They just have a strict uniform code and will stick to it almost always.

  • In reply to jbenton:

    Actually, no, JAB, it pertained to Hanukkah and its observance. Our cousin is a Naval Academy grad, and was in flight school in FL. It's a long story...

  • In reply to sjvl:

    SJVL, I wasn't talking about your instance and wasn't trying to argue about your families circumstance. I was refering to NBIT's "The US has a famous case where the army was not obligated to allow one soldier to wear his yamulkah. That's not okay... for any religion." comment. I'm just giving an opinion from someone who has had first hand experience with the military.

  • In reply to jbenton:

    Thank you. SIR!!!!!

  • In reply to sjvl:

    Great story. A chassidic family from Russia went to vote every election when they lived in Brooklyn. The daughter writes that she went with her father as a child. He always wore his Shabbos best, which included a traditional chassidic fur hat because he viewed voting as a really important thing.

    One year they went to vote and the polling place was a government building. There was a guard at the door who told the gentleman he had to remove his hat in the building out of respect for the country. The old man replied "It is because I am in this great country that I don't have to take off my hat."

  • In reply to jbenton:

    The difference between wearing a star of david and a yamulkah is big. The star of david is a very nice picture that allows people to show their Jewish pride and, recently, their solidarity with Israel. The Yamulkah (or some kind of head covering) is required by Jewish law.

    You are exactly correct that the policy was due to the need for a uniform. The soldier offered to wear any color or style of yamulkah the military ask him to, but was refused. To remain in the military would have been to compromise on his religious beliefs. And so he was discharged (not sure the terminology).

  • In reply to mottystone:

    That's one of the positives about the military though. There is no gray area when it comes to uniform. They want everyone to look the same. I'm not saying I agree that he shouldn't have been allowed to wear it but a rule is a rule and they enforce that rule on everyone not just the Jewish.

  • In reply to jbenton:

    No, the rules are designed to accomodate certain folks and not others. For example, schools are all closed on X-mas and are also frequently open on Passover or Yom Kippor.

    They enforce their schedule on everyone equally. But there's no opt out, so the schools are pretty good about accomodating Jews as the issues arise.

    The military is not good at accomodating anybody. If you make military service mandatory, then you are forcing Jews into a bad spot.

  • In reply to mottystone:

    How many days do you want kids to have off school? If we have a holiday for every different religion the kids wouldn't be in school at all. Not to mention all the teachers institute days and such. This country was founded on christianity and will always celebrate christian holidays. That may change down the road but I hope it doesn't. For the record, I'm against mandatory service and it will never happen in the United States.

  • In reply to jbenton:

    Not asking for all of the days off. Just demonstrating that the government works around the majority's needs. The military uniform allows christians to wear crosses because why not and as long as everyone is the same we'll make the rules that way.

    All I want is that if I'm the minority, you let me do my thing too. Let me miss school and take a make up test. Let me wear a yamulkah. Let me have my kosher meals. If the military did that, I'd have no complaints.

  • In reply to mottystone:

    Parents can also take there kids out of school without any interference from the schools when it comes to religious holidays as well. So it's not like the kids are being penalized.

  • In reply to jbenton:

    One more thing and then I'm done I promise. Public Schools around here aren't even allowed to call Christmas parties here Christmas Parties. they have to be called holiday parties to appease everyone. I think that in itself is showing how many accomodations have been in this country.

  • In reply to sjvl:

    And on a lighter note... there is still a popular american sport more physically damaging than football.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QW81ab51uWI&feature=related

  • In reply to mottystone:

    i think cheerleading is actually a dangerous sport as well. I'm being totally serious.

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    As far as I know, cheerleading has the most injuries of any high school sport in the country.

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    Is it really a sport, though? They cheer on a sport, but......

  • In reply to sjvl:

    i would think that some of the best female athletes are competitive cheerleaders. It's gymnastics mixed with cheering

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    I would consider cheer-leading a sport to an extent. The only reason I throw to an extent in there is because there are those girls in there that just dance around and then there's the fatties at the bottom of the pyramid, so calling them all athletes would not be accurate. Some of those girls however are absolutely talented. The flips and gymnastic involved in some routines is amazing.

  • In reply to jbenton:

    Anyone here consider NASCAR a sport? I always ask that question to get hillbillies fired up. Ever have an argument with a person who considers driving a car a sport? It's like speaking to a child. Temper tantrums "It is too a sport" as they're throwing themselves on the ground.

  • In reply to jbenton:

    I would say it takes endurance, a certain level of training, and good eyesight, but no not a sport really.

  • In reply to jbenton:

    NASCAR is a sport, but the drivers are not athletes.

  • In reply to mottystone:

    I'd call it an event, not a sport. I don't consider horse racing a sport either so how can I look at driving a car as one.

  • In reply to mottystone:

    I find it interesting how some find it so "uncomfortable" for someone to state a belief based on their faith. It seems to be the only subject that sends some bloggers into some posts bordering on rage. I also find amusing some stories of how some were religious but then fell from God because they got spanked in school or some priest preached for bigger donations. I find it useless and frustrating to think I can change someones beliefs by posting a few words on the DBB. I offer opinions or observations and try to refrain from changing any of you. People on here have made statements I have found personally offensive but I figure your entitled and I'll never change you with my posts. That being said I guess it kind of pisses me off how some feel the need to jump all over Trac because he states his beliefs. You want to read Tracs posts, read them. Otherwise skip over them. I do notice it is the self proclaimed unbelievers that seem to be the most uncomfortable with his posts. Lets be tolerant of each other and not personally attack someone because they believe differently. Theres some blogger on here I dont even bother to read anymore, I just pass their posts over. I suggest you all who find Trac so objectionable to just "pass him over"

  • In reply to iamndmurff:

    Like passover, except without so much of the blood and the marking of the doors.

  • In reply to gpldan:

    I knew that would grab someones attention. You were in my top 3 GPL. Thought maybe Doc would beat you to the punch.

  • In reply to iamndmurff:

    Just holding up the Trotskyist end of DBB for ya.

  • In reply to iamndmurff:

    It's probably not likely, but I would love to see the Bears draft the left side of the Wisconsin offensive line in the first two rounds. I'm ALMOST as big a Badger fan as a Bear fan. I've watched both these guys for the last four years and they kick ass and love to play football. Doug Buffone even agrees with me. Four year starter, AP All American, and Outland Trophy winner Gabe Carimi will probably go before the Bears have a chance. He's a 6'7" 320 lb. run ass kicker with decent pass coverage skills. The guy I really want, even if we have to trade up in the second round, is John Moffitt. He's a 6'5" 320 lb. left guard / center who mauls people, punishes people, and pushes the pile. He demoralizes players as the game goes along. His tenacity reminds me of Kruetz in his younger days, except he does it with a smile. We need someone up the middle to move the line of scrimmage, especially against Suh and Raji on run plays. He can move guys back at the point of attack, he can seal an edge even when pulling, or he can go to the next level and destroy a linebacker or DB. He rarely quits on a play. He's one of my favorite Badgers of all time. He was an AP All-American this year. I'm not sure how he will translate to the pros, because I'm no expert, but I think he's going to turn into one of the best guards in the NFL. It's his attitude, toughness, intelligence, and love for the game that will make him great. I know I'm just a gap-toothed, cheese-loving Wisconsin hick who trapped a few muskrats and shot a few squirrels for dinner for my 300lb. wife, and kids who drink milk directly from the cows tit, but that's my opinion.

  • In reply to TheFifth:

    A couple pieces like these on the line and we buy Green Bay a fucking steak dinner and fuck them in the bathroom while the check is being generated. prison style.

  • In reply to TheFifth:

    I don't know - I think we have a legitimate shot at Carimi. Either way, both guys are what Tice is looking for at Guard.

  • In reply to iamndmurff:

    Since Tice is staying, I would say that Chris Williams is feeling more at ease today, and may celebrate with a few cheeseburgers and not hitting the gym this week...

  • In reply to gpldan:

    So pretty much his usual then?

  • In reply to gpldan:

    he has a big body and tiny short arms like Barney. I wish he was a mean, vindictive asshole like Richie Incognito, except with talent.

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    You gotta love linemen with his disposition. I was always a fan of the ever hated Conrad Dobler, what he lacked talent wise he made up with attitude.

  • In reply to iamndmurff:

    modern day olin kreutz?

  • In reply to brocklanders:

    I want to transplant Kreutz's brain into Williams head. We have 9 drugs for erectile dysfunction but we can't transplant someone's brain into Barney's head?

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    Cookie...
    Charmin...
    Barney...

    When you have this many nicknames, you are a bust. End of story.

  • In reply to MikeBrownhadaPosse:

    100%.

    but it's not the quantity MBP, it's what those specific ones connote. He's brutal.

  • In reply to brocklanders:

    Nastier and dirtier than Olin

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    Barney. Awesome Johnny. I'm not sure if you have kids but have you ever seen the movie Meet the Robinsons? There's a part in there where a dinosaur is making growling noises and captions below him show him saying "I have a large body and small arms" and he's all pissed off. It's Chris Williams.

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    I found this great footage of Chris Williams. I think he shows some promise.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93B072j-E3I

  • In reply to jbenton:

    his footwork was still a little off but at least he was sticking his head in there

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    hee

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    That's what she said.

  • In reply to jbenton:

    Yet another false start, though.

  • In reply to gpldan:

    I believe you're thinking of omelete GP, the king of the flase starters.

  • In reply to gpldan:

    RIP DD, one of my favorite 85 bears. Damn man.

  • In reply to mottystone:

    Today's drivers are athletes. The car is more or less an extention of thier bodies. If you do something that keeps your heart rate between 160-180bpm for 2-3 hours, you are an athlete. To your point; Jimmy Johnson an athlete? No.

  • In reply to jbenton:

    And some of you complain that soccer sucks!?! LOL LOL (no, not being #16)

  • In reply to jbenton:

    holy shit! Should I just not show up anymore?

    Like I said... check cnn.com and search for "Middle East". The apocalypse is coming now. Start stocking up on zombie killing equipment people.

    In fact, I think I'm going to start a new zombie killing religion

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    I am down. Sign me up for a charter membership, MB.

  • In reply to MikeBrownhadaPosse:

    All hail the twin stars - Smith and the exalted Wesson.

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    I'm in, MB. I've already started stockpiling water and Tang. I also purchased a book last year about how to survive a zombie apocalypse.

  • In reply to bnjrmyn:

    This Tang you speak of. Is it of the Poon variety.

  • In reply to jbenton:

    Naw, you gotta get that for yourself. This Tang is of the astronaut variety, tastes of the finest oranges, well if you heavily processed and freeze-dried the finest oranges and added shit-tons of sugar.

  • In reply to bnjrmyn:

    Boo to you sir. I prefer the other kind.

  • In reply to jbenton:

    That was funny.

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    I should pull the Costanza now and leave on a high note.

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    Actually some Packer troll posts cause rage on here. LOL

  • In reply to iamndmurff:

    I'm guilty of the rage Murph.

  • In reply to jbenton:

    Isn't rage one of the 7 deadly sins?

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    Who here among us hasn't sinned? I'm more of a glutton myself.

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    not when directed at fagheads like Greenbay Guy aka whatever fucking date we pissed away the game to greenbay, 2011

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    I hated that guy. Absolute worst.

  • In reply to jbenton:

    you could just tell that the guy had that "Je ne sais quoi" that just made you want to fucking strangle his ass.

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    You know Johnny, that's the worst thing about blogging. It gives a gutless piece of crap a place to talk shit without having his brains beat in.

  • In reply to jbenton:

    Bingo!

    You could tell all of those dudes were getting fucking swirlies all through school and are now 'damaged goods'.

  • In reply to jbenton:

    treating our sacred blog like some yahoo message board. If the bears won the superbowl would i be on some Packer blog? Simply put, No, i would be getting blown wearing a Bears snuggie, eating a sub and snorting whiskey out of a bears coffee cup as i listened to Buffone and O'Bradovich have mini strokes on live radio.

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    2001 all over again

  • In reply to jbenton:

    Lost in all of this was Johnny's post about Tice getting extended... and I will thank my god for that tonight.

    Unfortunately, I also found this at the bottom of the article, "The Bears re-signed running backs coach Tim Spencer, linebackers coach Bob Babich and defensive backs coach Jon Hoke."

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    Anyone else hearing the rumors of Chester Taylor being cut? I think that would be a huge mistake given that the Bears front loaded hos contract and he's only due something like 1.5 mil this season.

  • In reply to jbenton:

    i heard those rumors a while back but the same reasoning was used to squash the rumor. He makes a couple hundred thousand more than Kalil Bell and is not Kalil Bell. That is a win win. Let's keep him and throw him the fucking ball once in a while.

  • In reply to jbenton:

    +1

  • In reply to jbenton:

    I've heard rumors that he will be cut, and team reps saying not a chance. Taylor is a lot better than a lot of other backs that would sign for $1.5. That is for sure.

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    Babich = that guy that beat his wife, got separated from her and then she won the lottery and he might collect. just along for the ride. Can you imagine Babich trying to tell Urlacher, Briggs and Pisa how to play linebacker? I can see them looking at Babich and saying, "coach, we hear what you are saying but what you say doens't mean shit because you are Bob Babich and we are Urlacher, Briggs and Pisa. Go coach up those 3 whiteys on the practice squad or Iwuh. We're good here"

  • In reply to iamndmurff:

    http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/?page_id=9798&paged=10
    Even God can have an off day!

  • In reply to iamndmurff:

    Quiz: Which one is retarded?

    http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/?page_id=9798&paged=15

    (Sorry, couldn't resist)

  • In reply to gpldan:

    All three?

  • In reply to bnjrmyn:

    TIce extended

    http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=Ai7K4BnhiDA_RazyNVFsM0ZDubYF?slug=ap-bears-tice

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    Will there math, football, or Rock n' Roll in your post-apocalyptic religion. If no, then I'm out. If so, then I too will be a charter member. I will worship no one though. Is that cool?

  • In reply to DocNitty34:

    Sure Doc. As long as I get my monthly tithe, I'm cool with pretty much anything.

    Oh yeah, and you have to kill at least 5 zombies a day.

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    Make it 6 and you've got a deal.

  • In reply to jbenton:

    As a breaker for the religion/politics talk, I had the misfortune of being at Disney World last Monday. I had no idea that Green Gay was going to win the Super Bowl and that Rodgers would be MVP. Hell I had no idea that any of the MVP's go to Disney to have a parade. So to my surprise I see Rodgers going down the parade route and a bunch of douchy Packer fans lining the streets of Magic Kingdom. As he's going by me I yell "Rodgers, you suck" and give him the finger. To my surprise he actually smiled, laughed and waved to me. i think that may have pissed me off even more than if he would have flipped me off back. I did later run into some Packer fans who were extremely disappointed in his lack of caring and wanting to take time to spend with his fans. They commented that he seemed dickish and all he wanted to do was get his cash and get out of there as fast as possible. Just a little fun story I thought I'd share. I am surprised i wasn't jumped by an angry mob of hillbillies though.

  • In reply to jbenton:

    I assume all the Packers fans were at the Country Bear Jamboree.

  • In reply to MikeBrownhadaPosse:

    Good call. That and hanging out on Tom Sawyer's island because it reminds them of home.

  • In reply to jbenton:

    Ever seen an animatronic Bear look scared for its virginity?

  • In reply to MikeBrownhadaPosse:

    Nice. Poor Country Bears never stood a chance. Not when 1,000 gap toothed degenerates come calling for your furry ass.

  • In reply to jbenton:

    "I yell 'Rodgers, you suck' and give him the finger."

    In DISNEYWORLD?!

    Oh, I'M SURE there weren't any small children around you though.

    THAT is WEAK.

    I'm talkin Veterans-Stadium-700-Level-Eagle-Fans weak.

    The only thing NOT weak about it was the way Rodgers handled it.

  • In reply to Albertintucson:

    Sure there were but the moment took me over. I kept thinking of buttholes like Packer Man that were jumping on this blog and spouting off. To be honest I have no problem with Rodgers it's almost entirely with Green Bay fans. I'd like to give you the finger as I type for your smug judgmental comment of me. So I got carried away. It hasn't ever happened to you?

  • In reply to jbenton:

    "Judgemental?"

    Are you kidding?

    You post, others respond to what you post.

    I responded to your post.
    Sorry you didn't care for it.

    "Smug"? What's more smug that you basically bragging about what you did? Apparently you expected everyone to be impressed. Pardon me if I wasn't.

    I think you confused smugness with civility, which is what I thought used (and seems to be getting short in supply) in only referring to your behavior "weak".

    In fact, what you did STUNK OUT LOUD, not to mention represented Bear fans poorly.

    The "misfortune" you mentiomned abouve was not yours. The misfortune of the situation belonged to everyone else there who had to suffer your boorish behavior.

    As for "I'd like to give you the finger...", just imagine me smiling and NOT giving you the finger back.

  • In reply to Albertintucson:

    Eat shit prince Albert. I was actually trying to change the subject a little to lighten the mood in here a little. There were some personal attacks going on and I wanted to change the subject for a little while. I enjoy all the banter back and forth here but usually it's just playful but lately it's gotten personal. As for my posts, if you don't like them please feel free not to read or respond as I will do the same for you.

  • In reply to jbenton:

    LOL, JAB.

    Is "I'd like to give you the finger.." your concept of how to "Lighten the mood"?

    Brilliant!

    You respond to criticism of clearly boorish behavior with...SURPRISE!
    MORE boorish behavior!

    Was the profainity-laced opener in the 2nd response ANOTHER "mood lightener"? Because if it is, you must have gone to the MIKE TYSON THSKOOL OF CHARM AND PUBLITH THSSPEAKING.

    I suppose next you'll threaten to eat my children? Just skip it.

  • In reply to Albertintucson:

    You're singling me out for boorish behavior. That's funny to me. I don't see you chiming in your worthless opinion when anyone else says anything that you should consider boorish. As far as as eating your children. Hopefully your kids aren't as judgemental and douchy as you.

  • In reply to jbenton:

    Alright, my comments have been over emotional and striking back in a way I typically don't like to and I apologize for that. But my original intent for my comment about Rodgers was sincerely trying to change the mood of the site. Was my behavior boorish? At Disney we'll have to agree to disagree. I say I was reacting with my heart and not my head due to what for me was the toughest loss being a Bears fan. With calling you names I will agree. I do however take offense to you singling me out here. Go ahead and look how intense some of the conversations were getting between some of the people I really enjoy reading and conversating with. I also enjoy reading your comments Albert, but I have to say now I will always think twice about responding to you because you were the first one to make this personal. Take this however you want and honestly I really could care less about what you think about me but I will apologize for the name calling.

  • In reply to Albertintucson:

    R.I.P. Mr. Dave Duerson

    http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nfl/news/story?id=6135463

  • In reply to FQD1911:

    RIP indeed. Good article, FQD.

  • In reply to FQD1911:

    Hmmm. Seems as though all parties partaking in mediation have agreed to media silence. Will it last? I wonder.

  • In reply to Albertintucson:

    Al, I have to admit I had an Eagles fan flashback there myself. +100 on this one.

  • In reply to sjvl:

    Thank you, sjvl. I consider that high praise, indeed.

    Speaking of "The 700 level", A friend loaned me the HISTORY OF THE EAGES DVD set. He and I have been wading thru the various "History of..." collection and they are, of course, all worth watching (yeah, even the Packers) thanks to the production brilliance of NFL Films.

    That said, I did find the Eagle volume WAY to heavy with love for and coverage of "The Vet" which comprises the bulk of the special features beyond the chronological history of the team.

    Veterans stadium was an eysore and it's playing surface made Soldier Field's look like the fairways at Augusta National by comparison. I'd even forgotten it was so terrible that the Ravens & Eagles once REFUSED TO PLAY a pre-season game there one evening, causing the game to be canceled. There was also no mention of the playing surface destroying the career of solid Bear wideout, Wendell Davis.

    They also basically EXCUSED the behavior of the infamous "700 level" fans as just being 'passionate'. Please, those folks were were such great "fans" that the City of Philadelphia had to install a holding cell and a courtroom complete with a judge at the Vet.

    The place should have been imploded LONG before it actually was and WHILE the "700 Level" mob was seated in it.

  • In reply to Albertintucson:

    The Linc has the same judiciary services, and they are clearly needed.

  • In reply to jbenton:

    Not to take away from the Dave Duerson loss but I'm reading that Bob Sanders was cut by the Colts. This intrigues me. I know he's Mike Brown 2.0 but for the right price I would take a flier on that guy. He's a game changer when healthy, and yes I know "when healthy" is the key term.

  • In reply to jbenton:

    agree.

    ...I saw the same thing but didn't want to be the insensitive dick. Thanks JAB!

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    Someone has to be. I'll fill those shoes. Been doing it all my life.

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    to break the downer of DD's death... a little laugh in his memory: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-hpSSFZGwg

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    i fucking love Mike Brown. He's no Josh Bullocks but hey, who is? I also love Bob Sanders. He plays the game like a kid playing old school Atari Arcade racing. Pedal to the fucking floor with no need to shift gears and no idea where the break pedal is. His body just can't handle the way he plays.

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    nicely put.

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    look for some classic coaching lines:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGXHxhDMBBY&feature=related

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G17zp0_26xU

    and once more time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zLlIdZikDk

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    I needed to truly appreciate Coach Dennis Green again so i have to post this. Notice the buildup of anger from a calm beginning of the question to the irritation to the anger. Then as he has nothing more to say some tool press coordinator squeaks out "thanks coach" and then he walks out. Fucking priceless.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYKIcnj1MJY

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    +1. Ma Nature exacts a toll for playing football with such abandon.

    I think the tread is off the Bob Sanders tire at this point.

  • In reply to jbenton:

    The guy has only played 9 games in the past THREE seasons. Ill pass on him. I believe their is more to the story than he just got cut.

  • In reply to Grizzly559:

    I'd still take the risk of Sanders over Daniel Manning any day. I'd be surprised if there were more to the story than he's due 5.5 mil this season and the Colts don't want to pay that for an injury plagued player. I'm not saying bring him in at any cost. I'm saying like a 1.5-2.5 mil contract. I take that risk any day of the week.

  • In reply to jbenton:

    What about the fatties on the offensive line? Are they athletes?

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    So (and I have to ask), why not just do gymnastics?

  • In reply to sjvl:

    Good question. I think it may be so they can then have their way with all the football players. Tramps.

  • In reply to sjvl:

    I think it was the 1992 olympics, NBC showed nothing but gymnastics. They showed rhythmic gymnastics prelims instead of the soccer gold medal game.

    One commentator said a controversial thing. He said something is not a sport if it is scored by judges. Its an athletic event, it requires major skill, but its not a sport.

    I thought it was an interesting try. Not sure how I feel about it, but interesting try.

  • In reply to mottystone:

    Yeah, a good point.

  • In reply to sjvl:

    Doc,

    Thanks for the opportunity to address your comments. You believe I have attempted to assassinate your character and I believe all I have done is directly confront statements you have posted over the past year or so. I have not done this to belittle you or attack you, but rather I have merely stated my beliefs which you and I happen to disagree on immensely. Why is it that you believe you can share your values freely but the when I have done the same, on multiple occasions you have countered with line by line veto

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    Congrats on continually making this a faith-based Bears blog Trac. We tried to keep this thing light and fun before you got here. It was a place to joke and laugh at stupid jokes. I remember welcoming your timid ass when you first joined this blog because you had a pic of Tractor Traylor. You were alright then. But, you have soured this site for me and probably many others by continuing to bring up God and you're religious politics. A serious discussion once in a while is ok (I was the first one to attack Jersey for being rascist on here), but you're inability to seperate your faith from a football blog is extremely evident and annoying. I don't mind people that believe in religion if it helps them, but I cannot stand when it seeps into all aspects of their life and the others around them and becomes preachy. Good job ass-munch.

  • In reply to Crowned:

    I'm the furthest thing from Trac 2.0, but I thought that was a pretty reasonable post. I'm not big on the religion and politics talk because it tends to get really heated with no real progress, but it's not like this territory doesn't get covered anyway.
    For the record, I disagree with Trac on just about everything except Jay Cutler, including but not limited to the CBA. I didn't take that last post as particularly preachy, really.
    YMMV - group hug and shot of tequila.

  • In reply to Crowned:

    I guess I'm one of the few who don't mind bringing up god and religion. That's the thing about religion Crown, if you're in you should be all in not just wishy washy and afraid to state your values. I hate when non-believers bash people who do believe and call them stupid for wanting to believe there is something bigger out there that is watching over them and protecting them. I think the great part of this blog is the diversity/differences in opinions it has and how we can all come together to support our team.

  • In reply to jbenton:

    I find it interesting how some find it so "uncomfortable" for someone to state a belief based on their faith. It seems to be the only subject that sends some bloggers into some posts bordering on rage. I also find amusing some stories of how some were religious but then fell from God because they got spanked in school or some priest preached for bigger donations. I find it useless and frustrating to think I can change someones beliefs by posting a few words on the DBB. I offer opinions or observations and try to refrain from changing any of you. People on here have made statements I have found personally offensive but I figure your entitled and I'll never change you with my posts. That being said I guess it kind of pisses me off how some feel the need to jump all over Trac because he states his beliefs. You want to read Tracs posts, read them. Otherwise skip over them. I do notice it is the self proclaimed unbelievers that seem to be the most uncomfortable with his posts. Lets be tolerant of each other and not personally attack someone because they believe differently. Theres some blogger on here I dont even bother to read anymore, I just pass their posts over. I suggest you all who find Trac so objectionable to just "pass him over"

  • In reply to iamndmurff:

    Well said Murph. Couldn't agree with you more.

  • In reply to iamndmurff:

    see, I'm just side steping everything religious (except for zombies) and anything political (except for the apocalypse)... wait... oh, shit... anyway...

    Not sure if any of you ever watch ToshO, but if not you should. Why? Well this should be enough by itself: http://tosh.comedycentral.com/video-clips/web-redemption---crying-wrestling-fan

    Oh and if any of you care to amble over to si today, I have two words for you: Upton.

  • In reply to iamndmurff:

    Hey Murph, do I ever give Trac a hard time? As far as the spanked routine, try punched, pummeled and almost knocked out (seeing stars). I wasn't trying to convince anyone to give up their beliefs, just trying to explain how I get to where I'm at. Thanks for singling me out. Really appreciate it.

  • In reply to CanadaBear:

    Didn't mean to single you out Canada, just one of the remarks that came to mind. In fact I didnt even go back to see who posted it. I really feel for you that something you trusted and believed in betrayed you. Guess I was just saying someones human frailties caused you to lose faith. I didnt think you were trying to convince anyone to give up their beliefs. And no you never give Trac a hard time. I meant nothing about you personally Canada, and its often on here one can not get their point across as intended. So C Bear, no bad intentions at all.

  • In reply to iamndmurff:

    Agreed, Murph. But one thing that has always puzzled me is why people of faith try to persuade or "argue" or "debate" why others should believe in their version of the divine.

    By definition, religious faith is outside the realm of logical discourse - there is no "logical" reason to believe or not believe. It is simply a matter of making the choice to have faith.

    Can't we all just leave it at that?

  • In reply to Mastodon:

    Exactly SC. It's the implicit persuasion/my way or the highway aspect that I dislike about people that are consumed with religion. It feels like its a weak attempt at brainwashing. Believe what you want, but don't you dare judge me if I don't follow your rules and ways of life.

  • In reply to Crowned:

    Then you will reap what you sow big boy.

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    There you go again guy. And, its sort of weird to call some other dude on a blog "big boy." I would hate to live under the fear you do.

  • In reply to Crowned:

    My feelings too, crown.

  • In reply to Mastodon:

    well true logic would say you should believe.

    1.)If you believe in God and follow a faith and God exists; you get into Heaven.
    2.)If you believe in God and follow a faith and God does not exist; you rot in the ground.

    3.)If you don't believe in God and he does exit; you burn in Hell.
    4.)If you don't believe in God and he doesn't exist; you rot.

    So, logically having no faith has no possibility of ending well while having faith has one positive outcome. Therefore, the only logical path is to believe and hope God is there.

  • In reply to dutsami:

    What you've layed out here is true logic? According to who? Your new testament? You're reasoning is not based on science or fact. Thus, it is not true logic, it is stories from your book of faith. Duly noted that I'll rot or go to "hell" if I don't believe, but go to "heaven" if I do. Brainwashed.

  • In reply to Crowned:

    I'm going to the creamatorium (sp?) and back to the earth. That's it. The end.

  • In reply to Crowned:

    I'll tell you what clown, cause that's who you really are. Go back to daddy and ask him to teach you the "Civil" part of civil rights again, cause I think you totally missed that one.

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    OK big boy.

  • In reply to Crowned:

    For being a down and out homeless man at one point, I would think you would be more compassionate and forgiving of others and less harshly judgmental.

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    Just found a cool quote and it made me think of King, Banks, Rosie, Siefert and any other nerd that critiques but does not play. Has the answers but will never be called on to provide them, etc.

    Enjoy this little diddy. This is better than "don't pee on your merits"

    It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly.

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    One I think is relevant today on DBB:

  • In reply to sjvl:

    "I suck at acting"-Drew Barrymore

  • In reply to jbenton:

    to George Bailey] "Look at you. You used to be so cocky. You were going to go out and conquer the world. You once called me "a warped, frustrated, old man!" What are you but a warped, frustrated young man!" - Lionel Barrymore

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    Potter gets his licks in.

    Bailey was still doin the doggie with Donna Reed and Potter's dick was still broke

  • In reply to gpldan:

    Donna Reed was hot. I watch that movie every year and it never gets old

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    +1.

  • In reply to gpldan:

    But Potter KEPT the 8 Grand or so that Uncle Billy "lost".

  • In reply to gpldan:

    Not to mention that Violet Bick (The equally hot, Gloria Graham) would have happily, yea, enthusiastically, jumped "Georgie" any time he might have asked.

    Ms. Graham is also seen to good effect as, "Angel, The Sultan's Favorite" in THE GREATEST SHOW ON EARTH.

  • In reply to Albertintucson:

    Apologies to Ms. Gloris. It's Grahame.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-xVLp1jTDI

  • In reply to jbenton:

    "Dying is easy.

    COMEDY is hard." - Various attributions.

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    I am sitting in the smallest room in my house. I have your review in front of me. Soon it will be behind me.
    - Max Reger

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    I'm talking about things like,

    A. Calling me a pothead.

    B. All the things you said to me when I made my "not there's anything wrong with that comment. Shit like, I am the worst kind of perpetrator in the lords eyes and will suffer greatly for my actions. Something along those lines. If I find them, I will post the comments directly. It's not the debate that I don't like. I encourage your sharing. It's when you take it to a personal level that I don't like. That's what I'm talking about here.

  • In reply to DocNitty34:

    Look Doc, you and I don't need to be whacking each other over the head, I agree. I never called you a pot head, I just said to give up the dope and take on a part time job. It was good enough advice given to me once, I happened to take it and it actually solved several more problems that I didn't even realize I had at the time. You saw that as a cutting rebuke, I saw it as practical advice. Take it or leave it. You know you're not going to be young forever don't you? Have you ever thought about all the other people effected by the drug scene in not such a good way? I have. I Know more people including myself that sooner or later it caught up with them after a while and it wasn't pretty. I have found out that it's a lot harder to speak up on such issues than just not say anything. Everyone thinks their situation is manageable I guess. Anyone can say, yeah dude, rock on. In regards to the other comments I made that you bring up, lets just say if you want to believe the things you do then fine, I have no problem with that. It's when a person chooses to promote a behavior that I strongly disagree with and I think may actually even be harmful, then I see that as fair game to comment on. You knew what you were doing when you posted your first response to Christianity, you were putting me in my place. I understand, no big deal. It happens. Let's move on and I really do think you're a decent guy. We just don't see eye to eye on matter's of faith.

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    That's the damn problem with the damn interweb relationships. It's so easy to get misinterpreted. I'm sure I've misinterpreted you and I KNOW you have me. You've pissed me off a few times. They were contained in two instances. The time after the Seinfeld comment where you said some really freaky over the line things about me and Browne. Completely baffled me. And you calling me a pothead, and yes you did use those words, was one of those times. First, stop associating weed with drugs. It's just plain bullshit. If you think I should quit weed, then you SHOULD think that everyone should give up alcohol. A far worse drug in just about every aspect. And if you didn't mean anything by it, then fine, I'm over it. But dude, man, have you ever heard of negative connotations in a word. A pot head is a derogatory statement. Period. And even then it only minorly pissed me off. Point is, if you ever think I was blasting you, in anything other than a friendly jab between friends, then you fully misinterpet my intention. Trust me on this. With the exception of right after calling me out as being the worst kind of person who shouldn't be teaching our kids. Then it was on.

    You may also remember me reaching out to you before any of this got started. I am an academic. I am fascinated by religion. FASCINATED. In an academic way. If not for math, I probably would have been a philosopher who specialized in religion. I find the whole concept of how the fuck we got here, and how all this came to be, absolutely enthralling. Could talk about it for hours. The universe is an amazing place. So when I reached out to you to get your take on the other "gods" who had similar stories to Christ, I just wanted the take of an educated person. You seem knowledgeable. Like somebody who's thought this shit out and researched it. Plus I saw it as a way to get to know one of my new blog friends. A common ground between us. You'll also remember that we did all of that privately, via email. You sent me some links to some fascinating sites. including one on scientific facts foretold by the bible. I loved every second of reading that. I'm an academic. I love this shit. I really do. So again, if you've EVER felt like I was "puting you in your place" then you really have misinterpreted me.

    All I ever wanted is peace.

    And football. Peace and football.

    And ROCK. Peace, football and Rock.

    And football. Peace, football, Rock and football. That's all I want.

  • In reply to DocNitty34:

    A scary thought just occurred to me. Some of my best friends I ever made started out like this.

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    He also said something about locusts eating your corpse or soul Doc.

  • In reply to Crowned:

    hee hee

  • In reply to Crowned:

    i just read up. Jesus trac, where the hell do you live... and why are you still there???

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    Are you not entertained MB?

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    Actually trac, I just read your comment up top about being shot by a mugger and the whole thing with your kids and was making a comment about that. Man, you need to move man. Holy shit.

    As for the entertainment piece, yes, I am. But you have to be careful taking on the persona of

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    It's been when whopper of a couple your years here recently. The town were I live just recently opened up Section 8 housing to most of the apartment complexes peppered in and around what used to be a decent part of town. 8 Gas stations have been held up at gun point in last 4 or 5 months alone. The whole area is struggling to cope with the increased crime rate. I see the side of Dope smokers than Doc doesn't realize exists.

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    Let me clarify. That Doc isn't impacted as I have been.

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    If somebody is getting held up by a pot smoker, they are not trying hard enough. Dollars to doughnuts every one of those "dope smokers" that add to the violence, also drink alcohol or use heavier drugs. Gauranteed. Besides, for every asshole weed smoker you meat, I'll show you an asshole Christian. It's not the Christian that makes them the asshole, it's the asshole.

  • In reply to DocNitty34:

    If you are being held up by a pot smoker, just HAND OVER THE DORITOS.

  • In reply to sjvl:

    hee

  • In reply to DocNitty34:

    Did someone say MEAT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFB_vHVFM_8

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    Back to the meat, eh? Did you see my link response back on Valentine's Day?

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    The NFL says the Detroit Lions have violated the league's policy against tampering and ruled they must forfeit their upcoming seventh-round draft pick and exchange fifth-round picks with the Kansas City Chiefs. The 5th round exchange consists of swapping the 9th for the 23rd pick.
    I'm not sure if this will even hurt the Lions at all, but they are definitely heading in the right direction and any hindering to them benefits the Bears.

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    No cause of death determined for DD, per the Miami Herald. Nice photo of him.

    http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/02/18/2073500/ex-chicago-bears-safety-dave-duerson.html

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    Sure hope The Tea Party backs up those owners.

  • In reply to kenbill:

    fucking brutal

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    i'm sick of hearing this type of shit. Who fucking cares what people in the fucking tea party think about the labor negotiations. what the fuck does that have to do with anything. Who fucking cares what the ACLU thinks about it either. What the hell do your politics have to do with this issue JacK. I'll answer it for you. Nothing. These types of posts are completely irrelevant and make it tough to stay on here to be honest.
    This is not a fucking Yahoo Message board so keep that inane political bullshit to yourself. If I wanted to hear tea party bashing or democrat bashing i'd go to a Yahoo post about a cat that got stuck in a tree where i'm sure i could find some waste of oxygen ultra liberal making a political comment about that idiot Palin or some crazy right winger blaming it on Osama Obama or whatever else traitorous name they would call our president. I expect that shit on Yahoo not here.

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    Just when you thought it was safe to go back on the blog... Attack of the Trac. Ugh!

  • In reply to Jlehr:

    Sac, SHhhhhhhhh It's been quiet for a while.

  • In reply to DocNitty34:

    You have absolutely no idea what in thee hell you are talking about Doc. You are blind to the obvious. You seriously think the dealers limit their business to people like you? Try majoring in common sense.

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    When I brought up the thing about the other gods having similar stories to Christ, that was not to defame Christianity. It was brought up because I had just heard about it and wanted to get the opinion of somebody who seemed knowledgeable. It was not an attempt by me to discredit Christianity. I am agnostic. I don't know. I freely admit that. And yes I used to be a Christian. I USED to believe. And now I don't know. So I can't call myself a Christian anymore. So, you know, whatever.

    I came by my current beliefs because at some point, I realized some of the stuff I had been taught (by schools, Church, my parents, other elders, the government) wasn't true. So I took the Cartesian route. I decided to start from a blank slate and start my belief system all over again. From that I have derived the that I will act according to the Golden rule. Do unto others as I would have them do unto me. Which is to say, try not to hurt others by my actions, don't judge people, try to be nice, respectful, fun, hard working, true to myself.... I fail sometimes. But I try. And if my words have led you to believe that I DO judge you because you're a Christian, then they were misinterpreted. I don't give a nutty ass fuck what other people believe in. I just don't want them telling me what I should do or what I should believe. I certainly don't want somebody telling me that I would burn in hell because I simply don't know the truth about God or if there is a god. I don't know. So sue me...

  • In reply to DocNitty34:

    Do unto others as you would have them do unto you? What makes you think that what you want others to do unto you is actually what they want you to do to them?

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    I don't. I'll just do the best I can I guess. If I learn that what I'm doing is hurting someone, I'll stop it.

    So let me craft my own Golden Rule. We'll call it the Navy and Burnt rule of Nitty. Treat others the best you can. Have as much fun in life as you can unless it's at the expense of others. On the other hand, if some assclown is getting hurt because they're unreasonably unaccomodatable, then fuck 'em. The Navy and Burnt Rule of Nitty.

  • In reply to DocNitty34:

    There you go Doc, I knew you could be honest if given the chance.

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    I've never not been honest, Trac.

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    So...Uh... Why is it when I don't read for a day or two you guys go off the friggin' deep end?

    I guess I liked offseason better when it was all bad punctuation and endless "LOL" insertion.

    You guys need a common enemy, and since the Packer trolls are gone - I shall become him:

    So,we need a safety,huh?I love the Bears.LOL.Bear down.Go bears.

  • In reply to JohnGalt:

    The Packers raised the Halas trophy at soldier field en route to their 13th championship. It's going to take a long time for this fan base to heal......

  • In reply to brocklanders:

    This same shit flew around last off-season. It's boring and we're staring down the barrel of a delayed or shortened season.
    I'm healed and ready for some football. Last year is last year. Aren't you a Cubs fan?

  • In reply to MikeBrownhadaPosse:

    Go Cubs!

  • In reply to sjvl:

    Go Sox!

  • In reply to Albertintucson:

    no, no, no, no, no.

  • In reply to sjvl:

    Sorry, I was born a Southsider. The 2005 World Series cathartic!

  • In reply to Albertintucson:

    Me too. Still a Cubs fan.

  • In reply to sjvl:

    WHAT is UP with ex-Bear Safeties from the 1980s?

    Todd Bell: Fatal Heart Attack.

    Duerson: Dead - Possible Suicide.

    Shaun Gayle: In some kind of love triangle that wound up with a girlfriend carring his love child, murdered. That's from 2007 and Gayle was not consered a suspect.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/03/marni-k-yang-charged-in-m_n_171606.html

    My question is: Should Gary Fencik be concerned?

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    What do you hope to gain by contantly bringing up religion on a fucking football site? There is no god Trac. religion is a superstition, god is a dillusion.

  • In reply to MASOCHR:

    +1 Coach. That's the problem with his kind; they can't stop themselves.

  • In reply to MASOCHR:

    RIP Duerson. Man, suicide? WTF?

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    +1

  • In reply to CanadaBear:

    There

  • In reply to Bears85Sweetness23:

    Hey Martz, you fucking butthole... how about starting with calling the ballanced game with a dynamic short passing attack and ZERO 7-step drops. Start there you tool.

    The other stuff is just gravy. You don't need to spend any money or picks to get 100X better next year. Just call games like you did against the eagles, seawawks2. Putz.

  • In reply to CanadaBear:

    Open books won't necessarily solve the problem. You'll have owners paying their own companies for different services (facilities management, financial services, etc etc). You'll have trades for services (perks in lieu of pay, possible tax evasion concerns)... all sorts of reasons to fight about how much the "total income" really is.

    I don't think WE should see the books neccesarily. But I think someone needs to see the books... the owners can't decide what number gets plugged in for income without some kind of checks and balances.

  • In reply to CanadaBear:

    I don't like to this because it's cuuute or siiiiilly... because it's neither. I link to it because I think that's chilli: http://video.dallas.cbslocal.com/global/video/popup/pop_playerLaunch.asp?vt1=v&clipFormat=flv&clipId1=5565171&at1=News&h1=Nothing Says 'I Love You' Quite Like A Wiener&flvUri=&partnerclipid=

  • In reply to FQD1911:

    Tice off limits

    http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d81e4ea67/article/report-titans-ask-to-interview-tice-for-oc-job-bears-say-no?module=HP_headlines

  • In reply to FQD1911:

    So, they say the combine boycott probably won't happen, but the owners have a meeting and will most likely go with the lockout March 3rd. Lots of info on NFL.com.

    *sigh* I want to hear more from the NFLPA, and less from the owners.

  • In reply to FQD1911:

    Fuck The Redcoats! Taxation without representation, my ass!

  • In reply to FQD1911:

    Didn't Wayne Rooney just get his 250K a week raise? Sterling. On one player. They pack out their stadiums three times a week though. They play about a 46 week season, and three or so different competitions, so they do play a lot more.

  • In reply to FQD1911:

    your forgetting one thing, Soccer sucks donkey dick

  • In reply to MASOCHR:

    indeed, Mustache. All day long.

  • In reply to sjvl:

    the "long term health" debate is a tricky one. you look at older players and their salaries, and it's kind of absurd. richard dent made $90k in 1985. it's hard to fault him for not putting money away for his future (no clue if he did or not, just using him as an example.) the NFL should totally take care of him.

    but then you have julius peppers and his $90+ million dollar contract. is it really up to the NFL to make sure he has healthcare when he's 60 when he's making more money than any many should be able to spend in a lifetime? shouldn't it be his responsibility to put some away so he can afford the few hundred bucks a month the rest of us have to pay for health insurance?

  • In reply to evantonio:

    and yes, i know that these guys would certainly have premiums higher than a few hundred a month, but there's really no reason a player making millions every year can't save for a rainy day. rain being spine deterioration, of course.

  • In reply to evantonio:

    The way healthcare works, everyone at a company gets the same plan. So Peppers is (a) still entitled to the same benefits even though he can afford them, but (b) not allowed to be offered a premium health plan over better than the lower salaried workers get.

    I advocate making the health plan available for life, if the players agree to a contribution taken from their salaries and pensions. If they want to opt out, I suppose that's fine. But right now the problem is that they can't opt in.

    For every Peppers, there are 100 Rashied Davis types - hard hitters that play for years but never get a big contract.

  • In reply to evantonio:

    That's why I don't fault the players for wanting more compensation. In our modern informed world they need to put their own money away for the future and they also need to weigh the cost of a few years of money fame and glory vs. a lifetime of pain and suffering. They are the ones making the choice. No one is making them suit up on Sunday. We have to make choices like this every day. Most of us are not very good at making these future/big picture vs. present/little picture choices...anyone else put on way too many pounds this winter?

  • In reply to buckbear:

    Reading your article, it appears a lot of damage is done by the time they get to the level of the NFL. And really, do a lot of college kids get to make the decision (with a full scholarship and possible glory in the NFL staring them in the face)??

    I for one, need to get out and start walking again. Winter has not been kind to me.

  • In reply to buckbear:

    Here is a very interesting article from an unlikely source, that gives a ton of historical perspective to the current 'negotiations'....

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-morris/the-superbowl-is-over-now_b_822198.html

  • In reply to evantonio:

    None of this matters anyway guys... have you seen the news today? The fucking apocalypse is coming now, the Mayans fucked up, they were two years late baby.

    We're all screwed now.

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDAmPIq29ro

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    talk about premature ejaculation...SHEITE!!! I better get my shit together! oooppppssss................ too late.

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    Always run from a knife and rush a gun.
    - Jimmy Hoffa

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    It's ok mb, I'm sure I've said some things that cane across as very incensitive, I understand the emotions. I've learned to listen to what people are saying, not how I think they meant it.

  • In reply to sjvl:

    This latest threat to the NFL in the form of a work stoppage is a microcosm of today's society. Unions had their time and place and over the years they have morphed into nothing more than extortion artists. Team owners have turned over their day to day business operations to the Lawyers and the Bean Counters and the owners have become a bunch of back stabbing cut throats. Both sides are wrong and they are playing with fire if they don't realize that middle America is the source of most of their revenue and in these tough economical times, a work stoppage will set them back a decade or more. If there is a work stoppage, I will follow the Bears no more, forever. The NFL and Players Union had better work their issues out because if opening days roster includes a midget or a bearded lady, I will not let the door hit me in the ass as I turn and walk away with my wallet forever.

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    Trac, the owners are locking out the players. The players have a valid contract the owners opted out of. Save your union busting speech for a better case.

    Don't believe for a second that you will walk away from the NFL forever. A few do, not many. Most people are pissed for a little while and then all is forgiven.

  • In reply to CanadaBear:

    +1 for recognizing that the players union isn't the one grandstanding and strong-arming.

  • In reply to CanadaBear:

    87 TRIVIA FOR YA!!

    Besides the last time we had interruption in the NFL what important note happened to a Chicago Bear

  • In reply to nicholsra:

    Will we have the "Chicago Spare Bears" back?
    any of these:
    "San Francisco Phoney Niners"
    "New Orleans Saint Elsewheres"
    "Washington ScabSkins"
    "Seattle Sea-scabs"

  • In reply to nicholsra:

    I liked the 'Spare Bears'.....

    While they were playing, a bunch of REAL Bears sat outside Soldier Field and met with fans. I met Walter Payton that day, and will never forget it.

  • In reply to sjvl:

    sjvl..That's the Bear..The GREAT WALTER PAYTON..retired at the end of that season...what an opportunity the NFL and the BEARS had to honor him..instead it went out as a fizzle.

  • In reply to nicholsra:

    Oh, I know he is THE Bear. He was such a great guy that day, laughing and talking with everybody.

    I am with you on the fizzle - a total disgrace.

  • In reply to sjvl:

    I was just thinking about a possible work stoppage. What a selfish thing for the players and owners to do. We the fans live and die with our teams. Both sides owe it to us to work out something now. We are the party in these negotiations that no one talks about. The owners possess the team, the players play for the team and without quality players there would be way less enthusiasm as well as money spent on the games but us. If we don't pay the money the owners don't make revenue and the players can't get paid for what they do. The fans need to make their voices heard. we need our own union. I'm the fucking president now pay me some dues you muddafuckas and i will get you the results you crave.

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    +1 Johnny

    A great phrase that both need to listen too..

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    Johnny...can Al and I be your southwest reps..and what's the pay? LOL!!!

  • In reply to nicholsra:

    Lobo, you asked those questions in the WRONG order!

  • In reply to Albertintucson:

    +1...hahahahahaha

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    Looks like it may have gotten a little tougher to get any FA wide receivers from the Chargers.
    http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/41589951/sports/player_news

    Proof that wealth =! intelligence

  • In reply to MikeBrownhadaPosse:

    MBP..from now on we can call this a "Benny" = Cedric Benson..hhhhhhhhheeeeeeeeeehhhhhhhh

    example... " Oh... he did a benny"

  • In reply to MikeBrownhadaPosse:

    Oh jesus: "Do you know who I am?" Naanee asked officers. "I am an NFL player and I'm going to sue your ass."

  • In reply to MikeBrownhadaPosse:

    Lay Ga Doo Nanee. one of the best names in the nfl.

    my favorite...Early Doucet, 2nd cousin of the shart

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    Except the owners get paid regardless because of the guarenteed TV money. They hold all the leverage right now because a stoppage doesnt really hurt them financially. It may in the long run, but I doubt it. I dont think everyone will be running for the UFL.

  • In reply to zmac:

    I think there's a misconception about the "TV pays no matter what." concept.

    Yes, TV pays but it's tantamount to a LOAN.
    Money they collect from TV during a work stoppage
    must eventually be repaid over like 3 years or something.

  • In reply to zmac:

    Jesus, it's getting (already got) pretty fucking heavy in here.

    Aaaaanyway. It's all about the Kahuna Burger: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE9Qm8mShik

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    Yep, last night there was plenty of hair burnin.

  • In reply to sjvl:

    interesting mock up..this is what LOBO has been asking or..PLEASE JA..PLEASE JA...can we get Christmas in March..and of course baby jebus..my favorite of all the jebuses...

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/608632-2011-nfl-mock-draft-how-many-options-do-carolina-panthers-have-with-top-pick/page/30

  • In reply to nicholsra:

    And yeah, this isn't headed in a good direction: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/football/nfl/02/14/labor.ap/index.html

  • In reply to nicholsra:

    the difference between now and then:

    http://www.bizoffootball.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=536:comparing-the-1987-nfl-strike-to-current-labor-issues-for-the-league&catid=44:articles-and-opinion&Itemid=61

  • In reply to nicholsra:

    and for all you love struck fools today... a tale of caution: http://joemontanasrightarm.wordpress.com/2011/02/14/the-fall-of-the-mega-powers-a-cautionary-tale-of-man/

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    MB....What up? how's fam?

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    aaaaawwwwwwwww...A time when men were men and sheep ran scared!

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    Oh, and finally...

    Happy Valentine

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    and with all that meat I would:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_tKh9mlE6Q&feature=related

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    MB, that is so freaking nasty.

  • In reply to sjvl:

    GoMeat!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9r2fjUYKdl4

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    Are you sure MB?????

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAokvMj1I68

    hee hee hee.

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    Happy Valentine

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    lmao this guy

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    The appellate court findings in USFL v NFL are interesting reading. Comments 121-200 especially. They go the heart of exactly how collusion works and what empirical tests one passes to meet that mark.

    http://openjurist.org/842/f2d/1335/united-states-football-league-usfl-imi-laefc-v-national-football-league-nfl-r

    It's also clear from comment 121, that a monopoly obtained by legal means is not illegal in any way. It is the act of exclusion and all its sub-forms that meets the predatory threshold.

  • In reply to gpldan:

    After reading all that, my thought was "Pete Roselle should be glad he lived and died in the era pre-dating email subpoenas."

  • In reply to gpldan:

    hmm...good post. That was quite interesting and quite bone headed by the USFL owners.

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    man who go to bed with itchy butt wake up with smelly finger
    -confoosius

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    johnny is what you mean:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4SIxKmVb0Q

  • In reply to nicholsra:

    yucky

  • In reply to nicholsra:

    +1 LOL.

  • In reply to nicholsra:

    Do you foresee the Bears using the franchise tag on anyone this offseason?

    Joe P.
    Flemington, New Jersey

    I

  • In reply to nicholsra:

    Where does Matt Forte rank in total yards from scrimmage since he entered the NFL?

    Roger T.
    Kentucky

    In three seasons since joining the Bears in 2008 as a second-round draft pick, Matt Forte has compiled 4,731 yards from scrimmage (3,236 rushing and 1,495 receiving), fifth most in the NFL. The four players ahead of him are the Titans

  • In reply to Bears85Sweetness23:

    oh god... has it gotten that bad '85... that you've been relegated to reading state propaganda?

    Common man, there's better things out there to sink your teeth into.

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    Lol just intresting things I think we should know is all

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    Off topic, but a few threads back I posted this:
    "Draft him now, Jerry.

    http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/01/20/jadeveon-clowney-takes-freak-to-a-new-level/"

    The USC Gamecocks recruited this guy, so I'll be keeping an eye on him. We'll see if he can bring this craziness to the SEC level.

  • In reply to Mastodon:

    +1...jebus SC...kid is out-striding, out-hither, stepping over, stepping on every HS kid out on the field...ouch...

  • In reply to Mastodon:

    Funny that the fans are left out of the discussion. Whats the average ticket cost now? How many families get to actually go to a game? Whats the Sunday ticket cost now? Oh and they're making money off of the one game a week that they put on the NFL network now plus ESPN. Every year the fan has been getting squeezed more and more and all these pukes can talk about is how they want to divide the ever growing pie. Is there not a single player who identifies with the working class the way say Perl Jam did when they stood against higher tivket prices? Apparently not.

  • In reply to Mastodon:

    Well.. Kyle Farnsworth is a baseball player. Apples to oranges between the 2 sports on every level. How can you expect to pay all the athletes for a roster of 53 the same amount they pay a roster of 20? Not to mention that (outside of pitchers in the AL) baseball players play offense and defense.

    On the side of the owners, yes they are rich but that has little to do with the argument. They carry all of the risk. ALL OF IT. They pay the lease, they pay the coaches, the players, negotiate and pay advertising, they pay building expenses, utility bills, and license fees; on and on. If things don't go well on gameday it comes directly out of the pocket of the owner... if there is a suit like the one over the superbowl seats, all the expenses will come out of the owners pocket. The player simply gets a paycheck for showing up on time and playing. Jerry Jons is probably bleeding $100k a day that stadium is not used and none of that comes out of the players check.

    Also probably 75% or more of a teams draw is on the franchise itself. I love Urlacher, love him, but I would still go see the Bears play even without him, with out him Peppers, Briggs, Peanut, Cutler and Forte; I would still go see the Bears because they are the Bears.

  • In reply to dutsami:

    Jerry Jones isnt losing a dime. The NFL uses a proffit sharing model.. so there really is no risk. When was the last time the NFL lost money? Anyone????

  • In reply to Jlehr:

    The NFL doesn't lose money no but individual owners can... profit sharing just means they divvy up ticket sales and some merchandising, it has nothing to do with an individual owners expenses. Buffalo, Jacksonville and Minnesota would have built brand spankin new stadiums long ago if the it was debt sharing.

  • In reply to dutsami:

    Individual owners don't lose money either. The least profitable made about a half million and that's just for tax purposes. Actual realized profits are much higher.

  • In reply to Jlehr:

    Well take him off the wish list:
    http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Vincent-Jackson-named-Chargers-franchise-player.html

  • In reply to Jlehr:

    Well take him off the wish list:

    http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Vincent-Jackson-named-Chargers-franchise-player.html

  • In reply to Jlehr:

    damn double posting...crickey!

  • In reply to Jlehr:

    Hey Jay..take it from youngster:

    Not in March, April, May and early June. That is the time you focus on your footwork, hands, eyes, etc. Plus, we can't forget the importance on what players do in the weight room and in conditioning/ speed training out on the field.

    context from:
    http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Bucs-Freeman-has-the-right-idea-in-the-case-of-a-lockout.html

  • In reply to Jlehr:

    Listen guys, what ever happened to the "art of business"? That's why we're supposed educate ourselves so others can't take advantage of us. It is each one of our responsibilities to make shrewd decisions whether you're an owner or a player. Players agents like everyone to know how much money they were able to get their clients and the players don't mind that the info gets out because that will translate to higher contracts for them down the road. The owners don't show the players their numbers cause it's none of their business. Have any of you guys ever run a business? Let me tell you, it's not easy. Most business's take years to build up and along the way it's not unusual for some one to make chump change after all their expenses, for years on end. These owners have spent their lives in business and sacrificed along the way and when they end up being very successful, some dude that just graduated from college on a scholarship wants instant gratification before even playing a down in the NFL. Then there's a little thing called fixed assets and accrued principle which are taxed even though you never able to spend a dime of it. There is no easy solution when you steer away from good solid business practices. Both sides will have to give up some concessions which will be extremely hard because none of them trust each other. If I ran a business and could afford to shut it down for a couple of years, rather than be told by my employee's how I should run it, I would shut it down in a heart beat because my capital is at stake. The problem here is that the players want a sure thing. There's no such thing as a sure thing when it comes to business. We all take risks in life and bear the consequences of our decisions. Why should the players be exempt from the risks you and I have to take when we attempt to build our lives?

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    It just get a little gray when the player and the skill level of that player help determine how successful and profitable the team becomes. Then throw in the fact that the player could die doing the job and then throw in the fact that the employer can nullify the contract if the player dies or gets injured. Then imagine an owner agreeing to a league contract and nullifying it with 2 years remaining and then saying to the players "tough shit". They signed an agreement and they are backing out of it because the year was especially profitable and they are pissed that they think they missed out on more money. The players agreed to a 50% split down from their current 50% split and the owners literally walked out of the room. That means that the players offered the owners a better deal than the owners had already agreed to in the past. The owners want to take another billion off the top of the cash pile and then give the players 40% of the rest? That is reducing the split by 20% and reducing the amount that the split is shaved off of. That is fucked up.

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    down from 60% split i mean

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    A player could die on the job? I hate to sound callous Johnny but come on. I got shot at by a mugger and let me tell you, that's what life insurance is for. I mean lets get real boys. There are no guaranty's in life.

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    Sanchez bangs a 17yr old and not a peep. Man, people hate Cutler. Banging a 17yr old is only legal in 2 states in the entire country. Weird.

    http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AqsQteAC5bo1kvXz3dFhX2c5nYcB?slug=ys-forbessanchez021511

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    It's sick. Just because it's 'legal' does not make it right.

  • In reply to sjvl:

    If she was 18, would it be right?

  • In reply to mottystone:

    it's just weird that 17 is legal in 2 states.

  • In reply to mottystone:

    I still don't like it, no.

  • In reply to sjvl:

    Here's the Cormonster song of the year. This is a beautiful song. Canada, I think this is right up your alley.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBzU9ephKkw

  • In reply to TheFifth:

    Great stuff! I think you posted this a while back. I know I've seen the youtube clip a couple of times. What a talented couple. I love her singing and Derek is an outstanding player. I try to stay off youtube unless I'm looking to kill a couple of hours.

  • In reply to CanadaBear:

    I remembered posting this after the deed was done. I'm the same way when I go to youtube.

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    Meet Jeff Miller.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/30/AR2011013004628.html

    I so love my Bears, but the NFL sucks.

  • In reply to sjvl:

    Meh, this doesn't bother me. But it does help you understand what kind of an animal you are dealing with.

  • In reply to sjvl:

    You can't blame the NFL for trying to protect themselves. These guys play to win when it comes to business, that's how they became and have stayed owners of Foot Ball teams for the most part. Surely you don't expect them not to use the cards they have in their hands? The Players will try to use the courts to offset the owners leverage. Make no mistake, both sides are pulling out all the stops.

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    Here's an article about the negotiations that has nothing to do with Repubs/Dems, religion or Mike Vick. The guy they keep quoting in the article knows more about sports negotiations than most.

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/football/nfl/02/15/labor/index.html

  • In reply to CanadaBear:

    Thanks Canada, good read. Why have several people here insisted that the owners renigged? The current agreement ends March 3. The owners are just exercising their option to re-negotiate.

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    The current CBA was originally scheduled to expire at the end of the 2012 season, but in 2008 the owners exercised their right to opt out of the agreement two years early

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    opt out early and then strong arm the players and then threaten to lock them out if they don't comply with the owners wishes. Just look at how Richardson is acting in these negotiations. It is bad.

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    Johnny, trust me, it's bad that we even have to waste time talking about this mess.

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    Hey Guys! Did I miss anything?

    go bears,bear down,lolol!

  • In reply to DocNitty34:

    Yeah Doc, it's this collective bargaining thing. Everyone's got an itchy trigger finger.

  • In reply to DocNitty34:

    And I got that Doc. You remind me of Jack Black in School of Rock.

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    And I happen to like Jack Black.

  • In reply to DocNitty34:

    Looks like there is a glimmer of sunlight shining through the clouds.

    http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/02/15/goodell-says-the-time-has-come-to-make-a-deal/

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    Your sarcasm is hilarious, really. If this is sunlight, I would hate to see a hail storm.

  • In reply to sjvl:

    Yes, exactly. This article clearly says the owners are railroading toward a lockout. They are betting that the players will fold if the games aren't played - and that the fans will suffer the debacle and come right back into the fold after its over.

  • In reply to DocNitty34:

    lololol, Doc, indeed.

  • In reply to DocNitty34:

    What Bears record do you think will never be broken?

    Phil P.
    Tempe, Arizona

    I

  • In reply to dutsami:

    Bears record FTW. BEARS Record. But your Hester record point is funny and true. And true is the best kind of funny.

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    Ngata has been tagged. Mankins has been tagged. A lot of the other WR options have been tagged. I say the team makes a play for Sydney Rice. I wanted him before these tages went down, but I think he is the best player for our team to take in a big splash FA deal.

    On another note. Everyone keeps saying we should get a tackle in FA. Who exactly do you all mean? We got tackles in free agency (Pace, Shaffer, etc.)... FA is not a guarantee of success.

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    Also... anyone on DBB interested in creating a "fire Goodell" petition. The guy alienated a lot of players during the season and is now making the owners out to be really two-faced. If that's their strategy, he sucks at it. If that isn't their strategy, he's hurting them.

    The guy is not a real fan, he's a politician. And he does not make the owners look like they love football. Get rid of him.

    GPL? You seem like the type to make something like this work.

  • In reply to mottystone:

    Let's see, the last time the Owners fired an NFL commissioner was...um.. oh yeah, never.

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    Let me try to clear something up if I may. When I address a subject, I view it as a debate. When I was younger I had a tendency to pussy foot around with what I had to say and skirt around what I really felt about an issue. Now I much prefer to go directly to my point. GP and Crown, though diametrically opposed to almost every thing I say, seem to indicate that they wish I would log off forever. I would never even consider wishing that upon them because I see our interaction as a jousting of idea's, not a personal vendetta. So when I enter into friendly bantor or serious discussion, I am not trying to debase your character but in my mind I am only challenging your position through dialogue. Like most of you, I do have a temper and can I cross boundary's either on purpose, by mistake or when I text before counting to 10. I do try to be careful with my responses cause some of you can get pretty touchy at times. I really am not trying to provoke anyone to anything but a discussion of ideas. Occasionally, I get both barrels at times but really, it's no big deal to me. I actually am learning quite a lot because of it. Anyhow, it's all for fun and entertainment and does add some spice to the daily hum drum. It kinda reminds me of the smell of napalm in the morning and I likey. And Doc, whether you want to believe it or not, I have grown quite fond of you in a way. I really see Brownie through different eyes as well, boy did I have him wrong. Anyways, I will continue to try my hardest to challenge you when I strongly disagree with your schtick as I know you will me.

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    Doc & Brownie have been decent to me since we had our issues.
    I re-read and saw how that last couple of sentences could be read either way.

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    Wow. Your persecution complex is bigger than Glenn Beck's. Can you find a post that I state that I am trying to run you off?

    I mean, you ran yourself off in a huff once already. Had nothing to do with that.

  • In reply to gpldan:

    Surely I have some redeeming qualities GP? Persecution? If you actually knew the definition I think you would choose a different word. I'll say this much, you don't allow me the same liberty to speak my views that you take. It's cool though, I can work with that.

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    Allow?

    As I don't have admin rights on this board, I certainly can't censor you.

    And as we saw from the Packer cockroach infestation, Jeff has a strong anti-censorship stand.

  • In reply to gpldan:

    Ok, turnabout is fair play. How bout this, allow without responding with vitriall and name calling. Don't get me wrong, we all do this in our own way and when I am out of line I usually try to apologize or clarify. That kind of interaction never accomplishes anything. It's easy to justify what we say if we aren't careful.

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    I will commit to: not using any DBB in the particular when talking about "conservatives" or "they" in the definitive form.

    You don't represent the right on DBB, there is a continuum of libertarian, conservative, religious and progressive values here - often the conflict comes from the same person.

    The CBA is a polarizing issue. I get that. I will stick to historical contexts.

  • In reply to gpldan:

    ditto.

  • In reply to gpldan:

    What does Marcellus Wallace look like?

  • In reply to MASOCHR:

    Describe Marsellus Wallace to me, pray.
    B: What?
    J: What country dost thou hail from?
    B: What?
    J: How passing strange, for I have traveled far,
    And never have I heard tell of this What.
    What language speak they in the land of What?
    B: What?
    J: The Queen's own English, base knave, dost thou speak it?
    B: Aye!
    J: Then hearken to my words and answer them!
    Describe to me Marsellus Wallace!
    B: What?
    JULES presses his knife to BRETT's throat
    J: Speak 'What' again! Thou cur, cry 'What' again!
    I dare thee utter 'What' again but once!
    I dare thee twice and spit upon thy name!
    Now, paint for me a portraiture in words,
    If thou hast any in thy head but 'What',
    Of Marsellus Wallace!
    B: He is dark.
    J: Aye, and what more?
    B: His head is shaven bald.
    J: Has he the semblance of a harlot?
    B: What?
    JULES strikes and BRETT cries out
    J: Has he the semblance of a harlot?
    B: Nay!
    J: Then why didst thou attempt to bed him thus?
    B: I did not!
    J: Aye, thou didst! O, aye, thou didst!
    Thou hoped to rape him like a chattel whore,
    And sooth, Lord Wallace is displeased to bed
    With anyone but she to whom he wed.

  • In reply to MASOCHR:

    Hahahahahahahahahahaha

  • In reply to MASOCHR:

    Sounds like you are talking to Watson.

  • In reply to MASOCHR:

    I dunno but have you seen his suitcase?

  • In reply to gpldan:

    I think it's fair to say we all represent a pretty broad swath of opinions on a large range of topics. There are things I vehemently disagree with GPLDAN on, but whom I agree with on many, many other things. The same is true with Irish, Trac, Corm, even my own brother Wicket for that matter.

  • In reply to MikeBrownhadaPosse:

    The differences of opinions and intelligence of this blog is what makes it so much fun to read. Rarely do you see the "Eat Shit", no "Fuck You" type of debate. Plus, if we all agreed it would be boring as hell. Some of my best friends are great debaters. If were agreeing on too many topics, I try to find something to argue about, because it's more fun and interesting, and makes you think. Playing devil's advocate can be a good time as well.

  • In reply to MikeBrownhadaPosse:

    I represent one opinion.. the right one.

  • In reply to Jlehr:

    Thanks for representing Sac! I need all the help I can get.

  • In reply to DocNitty34:

    Well played, Doc - well played.
    +500 for the redirect.

  • In reply to gpldan:

    I always smile at the hubris of the "Progressive" attribution for that particular brand of statism.

  • In reply to gpldan:

    C'mon, GP.Glenn Beck doesn't have a "persecution complex". He has an act, a very profitable one, too, an persecution is just part of it.

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    To Filthy's credit, she does appear to be one smokin hot 17 yr old!

  • In reply to MASOCHR:

    So then she should probably still be 'smokin hot' when she's in her 20s too - when she will be better equipped to deal with a situation such as this.

  • In reply to sjvl:

    Oh Jeesh.. how old was Priscilla when she got with Elvis? Amazing how people have shifted in the last 40 years... I blame the do nothing generation aka the boomers. Theyve raised the drinking age, driving age in some states, age of consent etc etc.

  • In reply to Jlehr:

    Priscilla and Elvis? REALLY???

    Yeah. Those were sure the good old days, weren't they? Pass me the cigarettes and whiskey, Sac! Let's go for a drive! Jeesh.

  • In reply to MASOCHR:

    New thread, please Jeff please.

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    How many of you waited until after 17 to have sex?

  • In reply to Mastodon:

    Not me. But I was with someone closer to my own age. Eight years is a huge difference at that age.

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    Trac, you are assuming that the owners can run their businesses without the players and you are assuming that the players are replaceable.

    If the players walk away, the owners make no money. If the league walks away, the players make no money. Both sides need each other, the players don't know how to run a business like the NFL, but they also aren't replaceable. They are "key employees" and key employees get paid a cut of the profits.

    I agree that unions get greedy, but the fact is that owners have exploited workers for generations. You seem like a real hard working guy, and that's a great attitude to have in an employee. But its also a dangerous attitude that leads to exploitation.

    The owners are probably skimming money they don't want players to know about, which is why they are keeping the books closed. The players can threaten not work if they aren't being paid a fair wage. The only way to figure what a fair wage is? Open the books.

    Otherwise we can play in a league with no salary caps, no veteran minimums and no roster limits. Let's see how that free market looks.

  • In reply to mottystone:

    I tell you what Johnny, why don't the players just get together and by all the NFL franchises. And make sure that they pay for the ball clubs based on what the owners say they're worth. What's that you say, they don't have the money to do that? Hmmm, looks like the end of the conversation. Not so easy when the shoes on the other foot is it?

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    NFL players not being paid fair wages? Surely you jest.

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    And that is the big misconception. If every starter got a check for $1 million to cover their season and every backup got $100,000, most people would say "I have no sympathy for them." But the owners would be robbing them blind. Just because its a lot of money doesn't make it fair.

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    Actually the owners probably wouldn't have enough cash to do that either. But what the players could do is all decide jointly to start their own league. They could sign contracts with CBS, ESPN and the rest in a heartbeat (though likely for less cash). The players would probably horribly mismanage the league and make much less than the owners (if they were profitable at all).

    Likewise, if the owners decided to play... nobody would watch.

    Both sides need each other. And that is why both sides need a share of the profits.

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    Trac, there are only a handful of people in this world that can do this job and the income they generate for their companies is LUDICROUS. Businesses that can run on unskilled labor don't need profit sharing agreements. Companies that need the most skilled professionals usually have profit sharing because of the symbiotic relationship between employer and employee. There was an agreement in place. It was not honored. The owners are at fault.

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    Look, I'm not saying the players don't have legit issues, I'm just saying the owners do too. When player sign contracts they regret later, the hold out and don't show up until they strong-arm the owners for a new one. ThAt argument doesn't wash. Even the players know that the only good money is the guaranteed money and the owners have always kept up with thier end of the bargain when it comes to guaranteed money. It's a game within a game boys, you have to play with the cards you're dealt. The owners have the stronger hand.

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    The owners are in a better position to let the house burn down and come out alive. That's why there are union laws and anti-trust laws. Even though owners can do certain things and consumers can boycott to prevent them, we would prefer to avoid the ugly process and force everyone to the table.

    I hate unions, but I undertstand the need for them. And I understand for laws that force negotiations to minimize damage from these types of fights.

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    "These owners have spent their lives in business and sacrificed along the way and when they end up being very successful, some dude that just graduated from college on a scholarship wants instant gratification before even playing a down in the NFL."

    Trac are you saying the McCaskey's sacrificed a lot to get where they are? Please! Also, other than the first rounders, the rest of the rookies aren't set for life. They have expenses too. Paying for trainers, nutritionists, exercise equipment, gym memberships, etc. Other than the first rounders, all the rookies are trying to get to that second contract. Most of them don't get there. Am I going to hold a telethon for them? No. Can I relate to the players more than the owners? Fucking A right.

    The owners want the players to contribute to fund new stadiums. When the owner sells the team, if he has a new stadium that increases the value of the franchise, is he going to kickback money to the players? Uh, no. You say the owners take all the risks. How many owners suffer debilitating injuries in their suite on Sunday?

    Most owners wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire. Fuck them.

  • In reply to Mastodon:

    wow, that kid is scary.

    "The 6-foot-6, 240-pound Clowney has all the measureables

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    oh, and:

    943 tackles
    59 sacks
    32 interceptions
    8 defensive touchdowns
    24 offensive touchdowns

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    I don't really care how they work it out, I just like watching football. Some of the views on here I think are absurd. Jeffs view of pensions and post career health care after one season. American workers are struggling to get health care while they work and I guess I just can't get too pumped up for some guy to get lifetime care after working one year. If the owners claimed to be losing money I would agree to show it for some concessions, but my feeling is it's their money why should their profit set what the players salary is? I just hired a painter to do some work, I'd never show him my bank account so he could determine what to charge me. I just can't muster any sympathy for the players, you want to play then play, if not don't. With a league minimum of around 300k and average yearly salary of around a million dollars I just kinda figure that guy doesnt need my sympathy.

  • In reply to iamndmurff:

    What a strange disassociation from reality. He made 300k his first year, maybe a mil his second, 2m his third. Then, his career is over. That's the trajectory of a typical NFL RB.

    And you are saying that by asking for a health insurance policy that caps at $10k of coverage a year, which he could probably spend just on bandages - he's being unreasonable.

    Trac laments that the "free market" system isn't working and that people are free to make another league. Even though it was tried, it was called the USFL, and the NFL colluded with television to destroy it.

    Such fascinating takes.

  • In reply to gpldan:

    Let me rephrase - such anti-labor takes.

  • In reply to gpldan:

    Gladwell's article is disturbing.

    It's what I've always felt, and as I have gotten older it's become a more pronounced feeling, esp. after Bush's financial crash and the brazen manner in which TARP was applied.

    Conservatives impart a moral weight to capital simply because it exists. He is rich, therefore he is entitled to many rights which may strip him of some of that wealth - no matter how it was obtained - simply because it exists. Owners have a right to run a league free of interference and free of labor organizing and demanding health care rights.

    Why? Because they are wealthy. It's a moral tautology - they have rights because they have money - and they have money largely because they have these rights to be free from "interference".

    Usually conservatives lament social welfare of any type, usually picking on welfare as a social safety net, yet routinely turn a blind eye to corporate welfare in the form of tax-free zones and exemptions, and carbon credits that allow them to pollute without consequence.

    I am beginning to no longer stomach the moral hypocrisy of DBB in stating that Vick is a cretin and a wretch for using dogs lives as sport for betting while himself being part of the exact same thing. Usually coming from conservatives, who are usually strongly religious, and do not confer the soul to animals but they do to humans. How ironic.

    I dunno. the NFL is becoming hard to justify being a fan, even though I was raised a bears fan and the NFL *is* American culture in a way that NASCAR will never be.

    I don't believe for a moment that the owners or the league value the players - even in the slightest. They are a commodity, like steaks at the supermarket. Grill them, chew them up, discard. Wash, rinse, repeat.

    Pretty damn hard.

    I hope the player's union goes to the wall and shuts the grinder down for a year. I really do.

  • In reply to gpldan:

    Pretty much agree with ya all the way except for shutting it down for the year. Nobody wins in that scenario; owners, players or fans.

    Also, not exactly on board with the Vick analogy but it is an interesting take on it.

    I just want both sides to come to a fair agreement and get back to the business of pro football.

  • In reply to gpldan:

    I agree whole-heartedly with URLACHERFTW.....at least 75% of the draw is the franchise. Especially in the modern game, when these players are nothing more than mercenaries. And I don't use that term cynically to imply that they are selfish and disloyal, etc. but it's just that, by virture of the nature of the industry, none of the players have any real allegience to the cities/franchises they play for other than their contracts. These guys grow up in different places around the country and very rarely to the play for their hometown team. They don't even choose where they play, they are literally auctioned off. We don't like Julius Peppers because he's an unstoppable pass rusher, we like him because he's a Bear. We didn't give a shit about him when he was in Carolina. Honestly, the collective talent level of the league is arbitrary. If you got scabs to play in the NFL as it is currently structured (with it's merchandising, coverage, state of the art facilities), it wouldn't take them more than a few years to be as popular as the current players are.

    Look at how popular NCAAF is.... The talent in the SEC is obviously lower than that of the NFL's Jags, Titans, Broncos, Bills, etc., but the level of interest (TV coverage, fanbase, merchandising) is probably at least comparable for your Alabamas and your LSUs. Why? Because of the hype machine... because of the fanbase pride that stems from the tradition of the universities. Much of the NFL's and NCAAF's value comes from elements that are secondary to the game itself....rivarly, pride, hype, drama, etc. If people were really interested in watching phenomenal athletes, then gymnastics would be "America's Pastime".
    How else can you explain the "winning is everything" mantra? We don't care how the team plays do we? We just want to win, by any means necessary. Of course, the highlight reels are a lovely bonus and we all look back and cherish our favorite plays....but how fondly do we reminisce about those great displays of athletic ability when they aren't instrumental in a victory? Hester's kick return in the super bowl would carry three times as much zeal were it not for that fact that it's associated with a bitter defeat. Desmond Howard, on the other hand, goes down in infamy for his return in a super bowl victory.
    The player personalities are a great compliment to the NFL's product, but value is in the drama and the hype. I myself think basketball is a much more entertaining game than football, especially at the highest level, but I don't give really give a shit about the NBA. I don't know what it is precisely that makes the NFL so exciting, but I don't think it's the football itself.

    Anyhow, I don't really know how I feel about who deserves what, and what is fair for who, but I do know that I don't really give a shit who lines up for the Chicago Bears, because I will watch them with the same enthusiasm as I always do.

  • In reply to brocklanders:

    I agree, and at the same time lament, the mobility of players. While I certainly do not advocate restricting them from getting the best deals they can something is lost.

    Even though I grew up a (dare it say it?) White Sox fan, I still remember Kessinger, Beckert, Williams, Santo, Banks and Hundley as the Cubs batting order. Those guys were there year after year, and the fans knew their strengths and weaknesses as players and really *identified* with the guys on the team.

    Free agency took that away, but it took a long time for a more-or-less complete breakdown*. Once in a while you see someone ascend from sports hero to sports god by refusing the money to finish out a career (Kirby Puckett being a memorable example for me), but this is definitely the exception rather than a rule.

    * btw, before pointing out flaws in my history, realize that I have not been a baseball fan since 1994. In baseball, three strikes and you're out. I gave them a couple extra.

  • In reply to gpldan:

    you are officially unbelievable. I don't even know where to start with this horseshit post. I'll try though.

    1. Bush's financial crash - are you even joking right now? I am going to create of list of books that you need to read to educate yourself about the last 70 years or so of the fiscal development of the world and the US. As someone involved in the financial industry of this country this kind of comment makes it really hard to take you seriously. Just pick up a fucking book and admit that the comment was just your inflammatory way of taking a shot at republicans.
    2. Conservatives imply a moral weight... - wrong. HUMAN BEINGS imply a moral weight to capital, and always have. The second part of this comment is the truly stupid part. Including the owners of the NFL in this paragraph and insinuating that they are part of the landed aristocracy of republicans seeking to crush union activity and keep their slaves in bondage is truly ridiculous even for you GP. The union is not banned from the NFL and is not even the fucking issue here. Just another inflammatory comment. a quick slip of the jab.
    3. Usually conservatives lament... - unbelievable. Comparing social welfare which is a complete shit show in itself to corporate "welfare" is complete lunacy. There are people in this country that truly need help. There are others that abuse the system habitually because the system is ridiculously flawed. Sounds kind of like the corporate loopholes that have existed since corporations have existed. Loopholes know no color or political allegiances Joy. Thank you for throwing in the Kyoto reference though. Last time I checked we didn't ratify it yet did we? I'm confused though, don't we have a Democratic president? Could it be that one has nothing to fucking do with the other? Another brutal comment meant to pick and jab at republicans and conservatives yet somehow in a post about the NFL. wow.
    4. I am beginning to no longer stomach... - Making a generalization that strongly religious conservatives are usually the people that think Vick is/was a vile human being is one of your most blatant and sensationalistic comments in quite a while. I didn't know that you had to be religious and in favor of a fiscally responsible government to view Michael Vick in this light. Could it be that any man of character would find his actions fucking insane and the motives behind it reprehensible? You don't have to be religious to point out when something is wrong. you don't have to give up your beliefs GP to admit that most times politics and religion and morality have nothing to do with Red or Blue. Once again you bring in your personal and apparently all encompassing beliefs into a discussion on the NFL but being damn careful to get your quota of fucking shots in. The comparison of Vick playing God with these dogs in a sick fucking game of gambling and power and death to the owners/players in a voluntary GAME that pays them MILLIONS of dollars among the other insane perks is especially amusing to me. Do you write this stuff on purpose or do you honestly believe this bullshit?
    5. I know what you were doing with the dig on NASCAR and would have been disappointed if you didn't include it. You can't help yourself GP. I am not really offended though because NASCAR is fucking brutal.

    Overall - i am amazed that you found so many opportunities to jam your thoughts and beliefs no matter how unfounded or irrelevant to the issue at hand into your post.
    It was truly impressive to see you take your hatred of religion, republicans and Trac and combine them with your cartoonish interpetation of epic global economic events and trends, global warming, the evolution of the American corporation, the evolving role of the flow of information and the effect it has on pollution from said corporations WITHIN the context of the NFL lockout negotiations....and then in your piece d'resistance you bring in Vick, lambast the majority of people who think he is a shitball as moral hypocrites while also labelling most anyone that thinks he is a shitball as a strongly religious conservative thereby saying anyone that is a religious guy or a conservative guy as being a moral hypocrite is truly special. fucking stop yourself. Give it a fucking rest. Your the fucking Trac of the left. You are the Joy Behar of the blog and Trac is Hasselbeck.

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    Very cleverly worded Johnny. Bravo, bravo. I agree with everything until the very last few sentences when you dragged me into your response. Et Tu Brutus.

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    Et tu, Brute? **

  • In reply to brocklanders:

    My bad.

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    To be fair, I always hated the vocative, dative, normative crap in Latin. Seems silly for a proper name to change form due to usage?
    Et tu, Traci?

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    Did someone say "Johnny Bravo?"

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    I had to mang. I didn't mean it to be as harsh as it came off. I just wanted to show the comparison. If you said the sky was blue he would deny it. If he espoused the actual of welfare you would bring up the bad points. If you mentioned all of the great works priests had done for the poor he would bring up the sex abuses. There is little room for middle of the road in these types of discussions but alot of people are in the middle of the road and just don't agree with the edges. If we all came a little closer to the middle like the NFLPA and Owners should we could probably come closer to solutions. That's not good TV though. I can be a blowhard in my own way but i had to call out parts of his posts as bull. I would do the same to you and i hope you would all do the same to me.

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    There is only one thing I would like to respectfully address in this post. I am NOT a Catholic and the Bible teaches rather strongly against a lot of their practices. Forbidding priest's to marry is what the Apostle Paul referred to as doctrines of demons. The Catholic Church forbade priests to marry in the early church because they didn't want to allow them to pass on any accumulated wealth to their heirs(Any some of you think the NFL owners are bad). Unfortunately what the Bible warned against by not allowing a priest to marry has happened with all these sexual abuse cases over the years.

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    Also lets face it, sexual predators go to where the Children are.

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    This is irrelevant, dude; He was just giving an example. Just replace "priests" with "Christians" and "sex abuses" with "Pat Robertson" and you get his point.

  • In reply to brocklanders:

    Bullshit Wrigley. I spoke to an ill advised example. You wanna paint a picture with a broad brush then you better be willing to allow the details to be filled in with the truth.

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    Hey, nutjob....what you are doing is exactly what Johnny Bravo bitched out GPLDAN for...... using a micro-point of an argument to take an unnecessary tangent and rant about something that has no real relevance to the original discussion so that you can get on your soapbox.

  • In reply to brocklanders:

    Oh I get it, stand up for one value while throwing another one under the bus.

  • In reply to brocklanders:

    To both sides "UNCLENCH YOUR FIST'S"
    -once emotion takes hold and logic is thrown to the wayside all sides lose.

    http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/02/15/jay-feely-worries-emotions-are-getting-in-the-way-of-negotiations/

  • In reply to brocklanders:

    Pat Robinson? That guy makes my stomach turn.

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    +1.

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    Hadn't seen much from good ole Irish lately. Maybe if I ask him who he thinks the best Soccer defender of all time is he'll check in.

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    Paolo Maldini

  • In reply to brocklanders:

    meh... pele is the popular vote, but some of these new kids are fraking amazing. Old school toughness vs. new skool skillz.

    I'll go with pele or Maradona

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    "best Soccer defender"....

  • In reply to brocklanders:

    shit. Missed that part.

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    I usually hate talking religion and politics because of the fallout but if it comes down to that or soccer, bring on the religion and politics!

    I swear if this turns into a soccer chat I'm going to start talking curling!

  • In reply to CanadaBear:

    haters gonna hate

  • In reply to CanadaBear:

    I will take religion and politics over soccer and curling any day.

  • In reply to sjvl:

    At least some people give a shit about religion and politics.

  • In reply to MikeBrownhadaPosse:

    BOO-YAH!!!!!!!!!

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    HOFer Bronco Nagurski rassling.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TF7hdX37vY

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    What I've learned on this thread.

    DBB has a lot of lawyers. At least 3 regulars by my count.

    Browne is an Ewok. At least, he's brothers with one. So that makes him an Ewok right? Cool. You really Wicket's brother Brownie?

    Trac, feels persecuted though freely admits playing devil's advocate. Trac mentions people are touchy but is clearly among the touchiest, feeling run-off and persecuted. Trac is starting to like me. Trac doesn't get into character assassinations, but Trac is the only one on this blog, maybe ever, to assassinate mine. I'm glad you're starting to like me, Trac, but you seem to be living two realities. To bad there aren't three, I'd just tell ya to pick the one in the middle.

    Politics and Religion continue to be the toughest topics to discuss in the whole world. This blog, being a little society in and of itself, is no different, as has been proven many times. It feels like an Irish pub in here. I remember an old joke about never talking about religion and politics if you're ever in an Irish pub. Turns out, it doesn't matter where you are. I wonder, is it okay to talk about politics while your in church? Or how bout religious discussions in Congress. Would that be okay? Nope and Nope. Can't be done. Hell, you probably can't even talk about religion in religion. I did a paper in undergrad on Game Theory and some fools attempt to apply it to the classic Problem of Evil. The project was to learn about some area of mathematics not taught in the curriculum and focus on it's applications. Which I hate. I like theoretical math. Then I discovered Game Theory which is the mathematics of stateegery. The typical applications involve warfare, economics, business stateegery, money.... I hate all those things. So I found this fool who applied it to the The classical Problem of Evil. The problem is as follows. God Exists. God is all knowing, all powerful, and benevolent. Evil Exists. This is a paradox. If god is all knowing, he would know of evil. If he was all powerful, he could stop it. If he was benevolent, he would want to stop it. Yet Evil still exists. The guy attempted to demonstrate how it might be in God's best interest to only stop evil some of the time. There were some assumptions he made that invalidated the model, as far as I was concerned, but I liked the idea and found it way superior to the other applications. And nobody said the application had to WORK. ... Anyway, so as I was preparing to give my talk, entitled, "Game Theory and The Problem of Evil", for my Senior Capstone Speech, all of us math majors were discussing our projects. I mentioned my application and this Christian Girl spoke up and said how uncomfortable she was and how innaproppriate this was to be talking about God in this way. She was very offended and didn't end up coming to my talk if I remember right. I couldn't believe it. I was flabergasted. This is ACADEMIA! How can you NOT talk about it? It's a wonderful philosophical riddle. It's beautiful. And somebody had to get all offended. Shit pisses me off. Free exchange of ideas is a necessary part of human growth. Without it, we stagnate and whither. Let's keep talking about the good stuff, and just not judge, defame, assassinate, or dog forbid, persecute each other over it. Mmkay?

    So.... How does everybody feel about Abortion?

  • In reply to DocNitty34:

    Funny you should ask...

    I was once in a corporate training class (the only male in a class of seven) and lo and behold, our brilliant instructor decided to have us debate abortion rights as an exercise in preparing material on short notice.
    Yeah, that went really well. I just shut up and stood in the corner and watched the fur fly. It is quite possibly the only time in my life that I haven't actively waded into an argument. I did not want to die.

    Yes, I am related to Wicket. He is my younger, less handsome, and much more liberal brother. He is the philosopher in the family. Everybody needs one.

    Really enjoyed the game theory story, btw.

  • In reply to DocNitty34:

    Doc - i don't know how i can last 8 months or more until football starts. The bulls are doing well but i just can't get excited about it. The Cubs blow wang and the Sox just don't do it for me. Golf is boring to watch and super frustrating to play. Other sports suck compared ot football.

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    and it is too much effort to argue about shit anymore. i'm done feeding trolls and i'm done talking politics and religion and aborting dogs. I just want a fucking massage, a glass of whiskey and a night of uninterrupted sleep. Can a brother just get some rest?

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    Don't you have kids, Waffle?
    How do you think you're going to get uninterrupted sleep?

  • In reply to MikeBrownhadaPosse:

    yeah, i miss sleep a little

  • In reply to MikeBrownhadaPosse:

    It's called nyquil. Either for you or the kids. You pick.

  • In reply to jbenton:

    Your son isn't named Jamarcus, is he?

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    I'm going to start running all this football weight off and pretend that the Illini are doing great and making the tourney.
    College b-ball > NBA when I can find the time to watch it.

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    Could be worse. Could be a Trailblazer fan like me. When they're good, they sway my interest for the first few months of offseason. But with Oden's fiberglass knees and Brandon Roy's slighly stronger fiberglass knees, I got nothing for 'em. Being a Trailblazer fan is like climbing a mountain filled with false summit after false summit.

  • In reply to DocNitty34:

    Wet drywall, maybe...

  • In reply to DocNitty34:

    Great post Doc. It makes one think.
    I was very religious until my senior year in HS. I used to get up and walk to church on my own for the 8am service all through junior high and HS until I got my license and a job. Even then, I used to clean the church and donate my time several days a week for soup kitchens. Serving people was fun, because I used to smoke weed in the basement of the church with a minister's son and sometimes trip before said duties.

    Don't get mad Trac, because we are both good people to this day and I'm not trying to disrespect religion. We both live our lives for the most part based on what we learned in church, but don't participate in organized religion. It's just a personal choice.
    My biggest dilemma with religion involves the idea of eternity, or in Doc's terms, infinity. I find the concept hard to comprehend and scary. Everything in life comes to an end. Eternal bliss scares me as much as hell. Go Bears!

  • In reply to DocNitty34:

    I wanted to be a priest in grade school. Then I hit puberty and that career path was no longer an option. I blame my distaste for organized religion on 12 years of catholic school. You can only get whacked so many times by priests and nuns before you start questioning god's messengers. At some point you realize the girls never get whacked, the rich kids never get whacked, the kids whose parents are always helping the priests and nuns never get whacked, in HS the athletes never get whacked, hmmmmmmm. The final nail in the coffin was a miserable, fat monsignor that preached for money every Sunday. He always pointed out that good catholics should tithe (10% of your income should go to the church). Then he would always point out that was 10% gross, not take home. This 350 lb blowhard got a new Cadillac every year. We didn't have 2 nickels to rub together (good catholics, lots of kids) and every week we get berated by this jackass. 45 years later I still have no use for organized religion.

    The best description of religion for me comes from two different sources. One is Archie Bunker. He was explaining religion to meathead and he said "Faith is something nobody in his right mind would believe." The other was a comedian talking about different religions are basically arguing over who has the best imaginary friend.

    Nothing against people who believe, I have 2 sisters that are very religious. I do have a huge problme with religious people who judge you, tell you how to live and try to get laws passed that are based on their religious beliefs.

  • In reply to CanadaBear:

    For those who like to read history books, I encourage you to read about what the Lubavitch organization did to combat anti-religious communism in Russia. Forget about theology; when you see what they accomplished, and what they went up against, you'll understand why I have so much respect for the Schneerson family. They are the reason I'm religious today.

    I can't blame any of you with bad school experiences or stories about hypocritacal preachers for doing anything differently. I've met plenty of phonies in my life, but just as many of them are religious and not. The secret is to find one person you respect that genuinely seems to have found a way to be happy. You can ignore the rest.

  • In reply to DocNitty34:

    Hmmmmmmm...I don't understand how republicans and conservatives always harp on wanting government not to interfere w/ their individual "liberties" and plead for smaller govt. But, then try to restrict the freedom of people to choose to have an abortion according to Roe v. Wade or marry their gay partner or have to buy insurance through the government through silly legislation. That's bigger government and more interference on individual rights, not smaller.

  • In reply to Crowned:

    That's actually a simple answer Crown. Republicans and Conservatives are typically after the religious sector of the countries votes. Whether or not they believe those values is beyond me. I myself don't believe in abortion or gay marriages due to my beliefs but this is due to biblical followings and not looking for votes.

  • In reply to Crowned:

    On the gay marriage front. There is no law against folks calling themselves "married" or having a ceremony. The government's choosing not to recognize gay marriages actually makes for smaller government in some respects. That means there is a smaller group of people that companies are required to insure, a smaller group of people entitled to equal protection, etc etc.

    It also means more people subject to HIPPA and other issues. But the issue does not cut so clearly either way.

  • In reply to mottystone:

    We both know common law marriage or "holding out" is not the same thing as marriage. As civil unions become more widespread, so will benefits for those couples. Many states already that uphold civil unions allow for tax and insurance benefits for partners. This doesn't limit government, it limits the right to choose and the individuals "liberties" that republicans and conservatives keep campaigning on.

    This means "a smaller group of people entitled to equal protection." You say that so non-chalantly as if that's a good thing. Limiting the most basic equal protection rights afforded to all people under the 14th Amendment is yet another way republicans practice big government interference. Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 will take care of this before it's all over.

    At least practice what you preach. If you say you want less government intrusion, then it should apply across the board and not just to guns and taxes.

  • In reply to Crowned:

    Yeah that republican big government interference was really annoying when Yeshiva University was forced to provide family student housing to gay couples.

    Gay couples can do whatever they want to do on their own property (and I really mean that), but a university founded on the principle that it would do nothing to violate Torah law should not be forced to spend its donor's money to provide housing for something it does not condone.

    Your complaint about insurance is against employers and insurance companies who are refusing to provide coverage. Once again, "republican big government" would be interfering by insisting that coverage be provided, not vice versa. Would that be a good thing? Maybe. But don't tell me that the government is interfering by not requiring benefits.

  • In reply to mottystone:

    The Yeshiva housing issue came up after the ACLU and two lesbian med students sued the school. What does that have to do with republicans claiming small government and then sanctioning or limiting personal choice as to sex orientation?

    Where in the Torah does it say straight married couples going to grad school can live together but gay couples going to grad school cannot?

    I'm saying civil union arrangments will soon have the same benefits as married couples under the law. So, why not just let them get married?

  • In reply to Crowned:

    Because small government would have meant the courts saying "sorry, we can't force the school to give you benefits, its not within the government's authority" to the students.

    Marriage in the Torah is described as a man acquiring a wife (with all of the sexist accusations that go with it). The grad school gave "married" couples access to student housing. The ACLU was unhappy with the school's definition of marriage and sought court intervention to include gay couples in the "family student housing."

    Anyone can marry. A man can marry his sister. A woman can have three husbands. Two men can have a wedding. The question is whether the state recognizes the marriages. I say that there are some rights that should be recognized (e.g. hospital visitation), but there are some that should not (e.g. family housing).

    There are grey areas too, but why does it have to be all or nothing?

  • In reply to mottystone:

    Obviously if you don't believe in full equality for gay people, then there will be gray areas for you.

    Yes, I'm talking about state recognition of marriage and the benefits that come along with that. That Yeshiva decision was judically made law. That has nothing to do with the contradictory republican/conservative/tea-party notion that they have been campaigning on but not practicing. That is, they say they want more "freedom" and personal "liberty" and less government interference and smaller bureaucracy, but then they want to pick and choose which rights gays should have. Like allowing a gay partner the right to visit the other in a hospital, but limit them living together in the same house. You guys should be as consistent with you're small govt sentiments with social issues as well.

  • In reply to mottystone:

    Heard that mr.mananalalnanana is having surgery. Can't say what it was but I know it was surgery.

  • In reply to Bears85Sweetness23:

    has to be the knee he had work on during last offseason. that is not good.

  • In reply to Bears85Sweetness23:

    I thought I heard they were trying to graft enough skill onto him to offset the weight of his contract.

  • In reply to Mastodon:

    ouch...I thought he got alot better as the knee recovered but the Bears probably didn't think they were buying damaged goods.

  • In reply to Mastodon:

    Ha. Very nice Dave. Wonder how long that fucking surgery took.

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    Less than it took to offset the weight.

  • In reply to MikeBrownhadaPosse:

    Zing! You're on fire lately MBP.

  • In reply to MikeBrownhadaPosse:

    yep.

    Sorry NB, you already posted above. Flag on the play.

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    Its cool, I got more comments than you anyway.

  • In reply to mottystone:

    ha

  • In reply to Mastodon:

    So, we're going to mediation peoples!

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110217/ap_on_sp_fo_ne/fbn_nfl_labor_mediation

    Let's see how that works out for us.

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    bring in the parent, the kids are fighting again

  • In reply to Crowned:

    http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/02/17/source-union-and-league-agree-to-seven-straight-days-of-negotiations/

    We'll see if they walk out after a day again. The guy running this thing kept major league soccer on schedule... so hopefully we can do the same with football (the much bigger animal). I'm a big fan of mediation, this could be a good thing.

  • In reply to mottystone:

    You're the lawyer and I don't have time to wait for your newsletter to find out, so I ask you. If you have to negotiate a time to negotiate, is that a bad sign?

  • In reply to DocNitty34:

    That would be a yes

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    Maybe, maybe not. It's a sign that they really don't want a stoppage to me.

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    They have agreed to meet seven straght days, but the outcome of the mediation is not binding.

    Yankee Doodle Dandy.

  • In reply to sjvl:

    If they mediate an agreement, it will be binding. If the mediator gives an opinion (more like an arbitration) it will not.

    But the union can't agree to something without putting it to a vote first (I think anyway). And the owner's reps probably also can't agree without putting it to a vote either.

  • In reply to mottystone:

    From what I have read, it is my understanding the mediator will provide more of an opinion, and either side is free to walk at any time.

    I am sure you are right about a vote. It almost seems like a brainstorming situation, more than actual mediation.

  • In reply to DocNitty34:

    Nah, that's just the first step to a successful mediation. You have agree on some ground rules and on a time frame for discussions. Second step is to decide what the issues are ("needs and interests").

    There are different models for how to run mediation, but I believe this organization uses a "transformative model" which was originally developed to deal with post-office employee grievances. Transformative has almost no format set by the mediator, the partes create everything from scratch.

  • In reply to mottystone:

    why don't they just go straight to mediating in these situations. if they all suck at negotiating which is apparent then wouldn't it make sense to get mediators involved from the get go? or git go if you live in the south?

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    Well the "get go" is hard to define. Plus, mediation is very expensive and requires a pretty heavy commitment to settling on both sides.

    Sometimes its better if the fighting has already happened for a while so that the sides have had a chance to form opinions about each other's arguments.

    I've mediated more than once and its sometimes really funny when you separate the parties and talk to one side. You'll get something like "I know I'll have to give xyz up, but I'm not going to tell them that because they'll want more." Its the mediator's job to figure out what is a real need and what is just posturing.

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    It's all posturing at this point. Nothing gets done in these situations until something actually HAS to get done. Still alot of quibbling time left.

  • In reply to Crowned:

    Yes and no. Its not like your going to get a deal done in a couple of hours. There are a lot of wrinkles to this thing and a lot of ways to structure solutions. Even with both sides working hard with a genuine interest in settlement, a deal will probably take a few days to get worked out.

    That's why they're doing this now and not on March 1. They've got enough time now to start hammering through the issues one by one, still deal with some emotional stuff, and be done prior to a lockout.

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    That fucking sucks plain and simple.

  • In reply to Crowned:

    mmmm, lesbian med students

  • In reply to MASOCHR:

    Bwahahahaa Coach! I wonder if their both gynies.

  • In reply to DocNitty34:

    Before I read any responses, I'll just say NEVER discuss abortion with a woman unless you know whether she's had one!!!

  • In reply to Mastodon:

    +100

  • In reply to DocNitty34:

    And point #2 on abortion - regarding "pro choice", I'm awful glad it is a choice I never had to make.

  • In reply to Mastodon:

    +10000

  • In reply to Mastodon:

    SC Dave pulls out waaaay early!

  • In reply to DocNitty34:

    There are days I wish Chris Williams mother has considered it.

  • In reply to gpldan:

    delightfully devious

  • In reply to DocNitty34:

    Sad news:

    Dave Duerson committed suicide this morning. He joins Todd Bell, the other Bears SS from that era, in that decision.

  • In reply to gpldan:

    Just read that. Very sad. Think about it. How bad can your life be to decide to take it. Must have been depression or something.

  • In reply to gpldan:

    Todd Bell had a heart attack GPL.

  • In reply to iamndmurff:

    I'm sorry - you are correct. Mr. Bell had a coronary driving down the road and hit a tree.

  • In reply to DocNitty34:

    Sad day. Dave Duerson found dead in his south Florida home. Age 51.

  • In reply to Reverenddave:

    Just saw that Rev. Sure is a sad day, he was a favorite when he was playing.

  • In reply to Reverenddave:

    RIP Double D. How do you know it was suicide GP?

  • In reply to Crowned:

    The comments on breaking now framed it that way.

    http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/2011/02/report-former-bears-safety-duerson-found-dead.html

  • In reply to gpldan:

    Well, damn and double damn!

    He lost his business, his home and his marriage all in short order.

    THAT is an RX for a deep and deadly dose of depression if I ever heard one.

    Very sad.

  • In reply to Albertintucson:

    I am really sad about this. I was a big fan.

  • In reply to Albertintucson:

    Actually he had sold that meat business, and was engaged to be married. I don't know what happened but we may be jumping the gun with the suicide thing.

  • In reply to iamndmurff:

    Agreed. No cause of death described anywhere I have read.

  • In reply to iamndmurff:

    According to what I read, he sold hi interest in one meat business, then started his own company which went into receivership.

  • In reply to Albertintucson:

    Didnt hear that one Albert. Sure it will all play out over the next few days. No matter the circumstances still a sad day, especially for us that watched him in college and the pros.

  • In reply to iamndmurff:

    I believe it was in the Trib article Today, Murph. They mentioned "receivership" regarding his new company but didn't say anything about bankruptcy.Maybe the writing was on the wall. Have to figure he took much what he got from selling out of the first company and sunk it into the new one. They also said he lost his position as a Notre Dame trustee. With the marrriage going south, domestic battery charges, it must have felt like his life was crumbling down around his ears. It sure sounds like the ingredients for and emotional hail storm. Hard news to hear. You figure a guy like him, with his NFL connections, Notre Dame connections he would have a lot of help at his fingertips.

    Maybe it WASN'T a suicide.I hope it wasn't. That leaves a lot of wreckage in it's wake.

    The STRESS from all those events can kill you too, all by ityself. Plus, Blacks are more prone to hypertension issues. Could have been a massive stroke or Heart attack.

    Look at Hawks coach, Joel Quennnville, who had to be hospitalized Tuesday. They say it's "non-cardiac related" but then mentioned internal bleeding. That sure sounds like an ulcer to me.

    BTW, I'm NOT a doctor, I just play one on this blog. But I DID stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night!

    Quenville's streses didn't go to his brain or his heart, it just ate a hole in his stomach.

    PA Announcer:
    "And for you, Joel Quennville, in addition to the Stanley Cup, we have THIS lovely parting gift for you: A PERFORATED ULCER!
    Now YOU can tell your stomach "LET'S GET READY TO RUMBLE!!!"

  • In reply to Albertintucson:

    Requiesat in pace.
    Dave Duerson

    Owners / Players: ...infinite jest..

  • In reply to Albertintucson:

    Requiesat in pace. Dave Duerson

    Owners / Players - "...infinite jest..."

  • In reply to Albertintucson:

    Remember C2 E2 - I will be there on Saturday lurking at the Graham Cracker's booth, or in line for a donation sketch from Gene Ha, David Finch, Ed Brubaker or Bendis.

  • In reply to Albertintucson:

    Do not make me repeat myself. I'm redundant then.

    As those of us that coached high school teams once said -

    Season's over.

  • In reply to iamndmurff:

    if i was in the meat business I would grill my profits away.

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    I went to HS and had classes with the new chairman of the Republican Party, Reince Priebus. He was just like Alex P Keaton. He carried a briefcase to school, wore a suit almost every day, and was very politically active. Very nice person and outgoing.
    I'm a business owning, Libertarian nut job who loves Ayn Rand, Reason Magazine, the Cato Institute, and DBB. I welcome the Tea Party because they are the only people putting the politicians feet to the fire, and talking about the impending bankruptcy of this country at every level of government. I guess this my "coming out of the closet" post on DBB.
    Here's a different take on all this bullshit.
    http://reason.com/blog/2011/02/14/reasontv-the-nfl-2011-lockout

  • In reply to TheFifth:

    Bravo, Cor! All you have to do now is start advocating the FairTax with me and you're on my A Team! :-)

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    Since there's nothing better to talk about. I feel like somebody on here might as well say it. I'm glad Vick is playing, I think he deserves forgiveness, and I applaud him turning his life around.

    Vick got very rich and very famous and did a very stupid thing that hurt a lot of innocent animals. He was selfish, he thought he was invisible, and he deserved to be punished.

    From a religious perspective, I see Vick as violating one of the seven principles that even gentiles are obligated to follow. Tsar Baalei Chaim - hurtin living things. Vick caused pain needlessly to another living thing, and that's not okay. Again, he deserved to be punished.

    But Vick did time in prison. He almost saw his career ruined and had to fight very hard to get back into the game. He lost millions in salary and advertising revenue and will probably never get the money he could have made if he hadn't left the league to go to jail. And he spent over a year of his life, and what could have been one of the best years of his life no less, in prison. I've seen people go through the corrections system... every day is a terrible punishment. Every night is a terrible punishment.

    Vick is doing everything he can to turn his life around. He does volunteer work to help others not make the same mistakes he did. He has demonstrated a different attitude to his teammates and friends. He has shown genuine remorse and a desire to be a better person. He's not perfect, I can still find fault. But none of us is perfect.

    I don't think everybody deserves unconditional forgiveness, but I do think that everyone deserves a chance to make things right. Vick has earned that chance and he's making the most of it. I don't care if people want to make dog killer jokes, but I don't agree with those who say he should be banned.

    He's a great example for players of all ages to look up to.

  • In reply to mottystone:

    well put

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    i wouldn't put him in the "look up to" category yet but i'm glad he is getting things back on track.

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    Players can look up to him to learn what not to do with fame. They can also look up to him as an example of what a real effort to change looks like.

    I wish Tommie Harris would look up to him.

  • In reply to mottystone:

    I agree with you Vick comments. At first I was doubtful the guy was sincere but so far it SEEMS he has changed his life for the better. Not for me, but for him.

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    What makes him impressive to me is that he seems to really understand both of those things. (1) That people are still skeptical and there won't be another chance. (2) That he is the biggest beneficiary of this second chance.

  • In reply to mottystone:

    I agree up to a point. He's got to stay on the straight and narrow forever. Any more stuff to do with dogs and they could throw away the key as far as I'm concerned. Hope he does. Same for Big Ben.

  • In reply to CanadaBear:

    I'll wait to judge whether Vick has really changed as a person 5 to 8 years down the line. A lot of the recent "change" he has exhibited has been oriented towards getting new paper and the biggest possible contract. From a PR standpoint, he's done a decent job in changing the public's perception of him via the media in a relatively short period of time.

  • In reply to Crowned:

    I won't be waiting to judge him in 8 years. I just don't see the point in wasting time tracking whether he's become a good person. He can't undo the evil he's done, so unless he hops on a plane to Haiti the next time it gets flattened, I ain't interested in his conciliatory remarks. Actions speak louder than words, and a few talks at schools hardly balance out his actions.
    I'm not worried though - the media will tear him down as soon as it is good copy to do so.

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    I'm not angry lobo, really. You know, if there was an attorney on this blog that specialized in contract law and he addressed a misnomer or ill conceived notion here concerning the lockout, nobody would react the way they do to him like they do to me whenever I speak to things people say here about Christianity. Look back since I came back on the blog. I have purposely tried to step with caution. When I gave an opinion on weed I was not quoting scripture, just giving an opinion. A lot of you guys are relatively younger than I am and when you get older and watch your children grow into adults, you will be amazed at how you see some of the things I have said here in a different light. I'm supposed to just stand by and allow sex abuse by the priests to be used as an example without addressing a statement like that know what most of you have said in the past. Intended or not, that kind of statement is totally out of context with lockout discussion and for me to not be able to address something like that would be akin to a boxer taking a below the belt shot without a referee.

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    Just for fun I'll pick out one small tangent. I am a lawyer that spends a good percentage of my practice on "contract law." There really aren't too many "contract" lawyers out there. Usually you have an industry or area of law that you focus on and the contracts are on part of that practice.

    In this case you don't want a contract lawyer. You want a sports lawyer, an entertainment lawyer, or a labor lawyer. I am none of those things, which is why the anti-trust stuff and collective bargaining rules are really a bit out of my area. I probably know more about those laws than laymen, but I wouldn't feel comfortable calling myself an expert on this dispute.

  • In reply to mottystone:

    But you do get my gist.

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    Yeah, just having fun with the whole "you missed my point and went off on a tangent" argument.

  • In reply to mottystone:

    I guess at this point I should mention that I have a J.D. as well.

  • In reply to gpldan:

    Do you know anything about labor law? Cause I don't touch the stuff...

  • In reply to mottystone:

    Anything? At all? I didn't do a labor law elective in law school, no.

    Anti-trust and Sherman Act, which is also germane to this discussion? Some.

  • In reply to gpldan:

    There's Teddy Roosevelt when you need him?

  • In reply to gpldan:

    Great analysis of how Roselle bent the TV networks over, insuring that Trump was screwed in 1986 when he moved the USFL to a fall schedule.

    And how Judge Leisure's damage award of $1 was a clear case of a judge giving a jury instructions that were false.

    http://www.law.berkeley.edu/sugarman/Sports_Stories_USFL_v_NFL__-_Boris_Kogan.pdf

  • In reply to gpldan:

    Just something to keep in mind, when DBB members say "if these players didn't want to get long lasting brain injuries and have medical issues, they should go somewhere else."

  • In reply to gpldan:

    I dont think any one said if they didnt WANT an injury. No one believes they want to be injured, but we are saying they know the risks involved. I do believe that when you make the kind of money these players make they should plan ahead for their health insurance. If they can get it fine, if not and they want it, stike. I just can not muster a lot of sympathy for parts of their cause. I know many workers who wont make a million dollars in a lifetime and can not get guaranteed health care. I guess in the scheme of things most of us don't really give a fuck about wealthy owners and wealthy players, we just want to watch football.

  • In reply to gpldan:

    I think people mainly misunderstood my Vick argument, so let me restate it without taking my "shots" as Waffle says, at my personal straw men.

    Vick is a fucking idiot in many ways. His intelligence may extend to reading D and he has a great arm and very quick feet and speed. But he's a social idiot and I'm gonna guess his wonderlic score ain't that hot.

    To him, dogs are sport. Horses who break their legs are often put down if the injury can't be repaired. Running them and breeding them to race - to somebody like Vick - is no different than breeding dogs and sending them at one another in the ring to kill the opponent. To him, animals are animals and God put them here for us to do as we will.

    Cows die an awful death. Ask anybody who works a slaughterhouse. They know they are going to die, they possess the awareness of mortality that we often define in ourselves as either extensional (for non believers) or possessing a soul (for the religious).

    Many of you despise Vick and put him down for his behavior. Dog fighting is cruel and makes him a bad person. It may even violate state statutes and therefore is a state crime. Vick, probably, in his heart of hearts, doesn't see it that way. He may say he does, but society locked him up and made him suffer greatly, so he will public ally be contrite and say what he thinks society wants to hear, but this is social contract stuff - he's acting based on his deterrence not to do something he will be punished for. Not because he thinks it is wrong.

    And, if you do not believe dogs have a soul, or have the same inalienable rights as man, and you have no problem chowing that burger down - it may be hard to confer dogs a special appreciation just because they are man's best friend.

    The irony is - Vick himself is a dog. He abuses animals, yet he is a simple gladiator who exists only to amuse us, as Maximus intones. And when he is wounded or unable to perform, he too will be discarded. he won't be killed, he will have been paid for his services handsomely - but he will be outcast from the organization, beacuse I really doubt a front office will give him a placement no matter how much of a choir boy he becomes or how hard he plays the redemption angle.

    So we have two sports: football and dogfighting. One results in the wanton destruction of dogs which otherwise (as seen by the dogs rescued from Vick's farm) are loving creatures not inherently violent or untameable as wolves are.

    On the other hand, we have a blood sport that is exacting a massive toll on the healthcare system in this nation in a way that soccer is simply not in European nations. We don't just lose ex-NFL'ers to broken arms and legs, we are cutting short their productive lives by sometimes as much as half, impairing their judgment and damaging their brains such that their contribution to society after football is inexorably hampered.

    We may state that such men grow up and only wish to take part in this bloodsport, that they get a few years of glory and rolling large in AMG Benzes in trade for the deal. Except many don't. Gladwell's article talks about high schoolers with massive Tau, and such.

    You may choose to turn a blind eye to this in the name of entertainment. We may wish upon the technology star and hope that helmet technology can help against the crashes on kickoffs, which measure between 70g and 101g of impact on helmet hits - greater than that of motor crashes. But all the wishes in the world don't amount to anything, and plastic and padding will not make this problem vanish.

    So all I ask is this. If you condemn Vick, then admit that the NFL is doing massive damage to its participants, but you CHOOSE to value humanity to animals OVER humanity to football players.

    OR - just be nihilistic and say dogs, players - fuck it. As long as it is not me I don't give a shit - anything that entertains me is a social good and I don't care.

    Just pick one.

  • In reply to gpldan:

    It's a false dichotomy. NFL owners (who I'm not particularly a huge fan of) do not routinely commit acts of violence upon players. People hate those who abuse pets for the same basic reason that they hate child abusers: there is no choice in the relationship, a huge power imbalance, and the betrayal of trust between the two parties. Players can choose not to play (sometimes they choose to play when we'd rather they didn't...ahem, Favre), a dog can never choose not to fight, or to be strung up by its neck, shot, beaten, drowned, electrocuted or stabbed. A child also has no choice in the relationship with its abuser. Comparing farming to acts of violence that exist solely for the purpose of gratification on the part of the abuser is silly. You and I both know this. There's killing for need (meat, clothing, prevention of predation against livestock, etc) and there's killing for sport. I'm a vegetarian (just picky, not on moral grounds) for the most part, but have no problem with killing animals for need. I have a huge problem with killing domesticated animals for the sole purpose of providing a thrill. It's repugnant.

  • In reply to gpldan:

    I wouldn't make that argument; the lack of labor mobility in the major pro sports is one of the reasons that collective bargaining is a moral obligation. A single player has no leverage, no options, and no chance of winning in court.
    I am squarely on the side of the players union, not the owners. I view it as being better economics, frankly.

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    Can I at least be Noam Chomsky?

    All my points stick, this ad hominem not withstanding.

  • In reply to gpldan:

    GP - it's weird because parts of your arguments always stick. It's just that your points usually have some merit and then you take a step back and pee on the merits with generalized bias and it ruins the overall idea for me.

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    On the back of the Hendrix DBB shirt, can it say "don't pee on your merit"

    Cause that phrase rocks.

  • In reply to gpldan:

    Agreed. But "Don't Piss on your merit" sounds better.

  • In reply to DocNitty34:

    I am unfortunately picturing one of those Calvin stickers peeing on the word "Merit" in the Ford logo font.

  • In reply to MikeBrownhadaPosse:

    Ah you can always use Trac and other conservatives for a good laugh. Go back to watching Fox news boys and leave the thinking to us.

  • In reply to Jlehr:

    Spoken like a Californian to be sure. And a childish one at that.

  • In reply to hollywood1:

    I don't think I want to step into this pile.

  • In reply to gpldan:

    Don't know about you but I could live off of 3.5 mil. for awhile. On top of that odds are he got an education out of it too. What he got out of that education was up to him and not my problem. The point is plan ahead like a lot of these owners did to get into their lucrative careers.

  • In reply to jbenton:

    Well, consider it $2 million once the Feds were done with it, and perhaps $200K less working in some states.

    Still a fair chunk of change, but not exactly a fortune.

  • In reply to iamndmurff:

    Well said Murph. This isn't the needy we're talking about here, it's a bunch of rich people arguing with a bunch of richer people about getting richer.

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    I wonder how much of it comes from people making fun of his surname. Not a word out of me, no sir, Mr. Jadeveon..

  • In reply to MB30SD:

    I didn't take time to watch or read all of it, but what I did watch and see was classic. I stopped watching wrestling shrotly after this era (early 90's). Mostly because my junior high/high school buddies nearly killed one this dude's little brothers performing pile drivers, body slams and suplexes etc on him.

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    Unfortunately, you're not going anywhere you hobo republican.

  • In reply to Crowned:

    Then who would you have to kick around crown?

  • In reply to Crowned:

    Crown, man... gotta call you for unnecessary roughness, or excessive celebration, or intentional use of the hands

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    My father's been a teamster for 30 years Trac, and the unions still do have a place in today's workforce. In fact i'd argue that they are absolutely necessary.

    You said "Lawyers and the Bean Counters and the owners have become a bunch of back stabbing cut throats"

    - they have been back stabbing cut throats since the dawn of time, and Union's have helped keep them in check in fairly recent times.

  • In reply to MASOCHR:

    I understand the family history and no doubt, I'm sure your Dad is a wonderful man but I have one word for you(just for you mb), Jimmy Hoffa. (I know, 2 words).

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    Unions, for the most part, have been emasculated. Its worth noting, however, that we're talking about COLLECTIVE BARGAINING. Now, if you take your argument to the next logical step, politically, revenue sharing (a commie socialist, pinko proposition if there ever was one) would be done away with. Jerry Jone's has a major hard on for this to happen. Why? Think George Steinbrenner, but writ Texas large.

  • In reply to jdawg:

    I'm with Trac on this one. Unions served there purpose years ago when slave labor was common place. Those times are long gone. Anyone living in Illinois that works with these whiners bitching about unfair pay when an uneducated laborer is making $35 an hour. That's just their salary, then you have to figure what these businesses are paying for health care/union benefits etc. That about doubles the money the companies are paying for their work. I've seen many a small business go under due to these ridiculous salaries they have to pay someone that again has little to no education. I don't know much about the NFL unions but the unions in this area are completely corrupt.

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    also, with the players all the way. the owners can talk all the shit they want, but if there's a work stoppage, they will hurt more than the players (ESPECIALLY Jerry Jones). has someone interviewed him and asked him about what he thinks of all this?

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    They still have their time and place. Who will protect our nation's environment, Social Security, and health care when the corporate types continue to view humans as profitable or not profitable? Why do companies hire young workers? To save money because they cost less than those who have sacrificed their time and work for years only to be replaced or downsized because of costs.

    The owners are greedy, thinking they can squeeze every drop of blood out of these players. Unlike most jobs, owners aren't going to find replacements that can play a high level of football. Players make more than most of us make in a lifetime, but salary envy isn't a reason to dog these players. No one wants to see Rex Ryan's fat ass in a uniform.

  • In reply to RodgerRodger:

    You cannot really believe that unions protect any of those things, can you?

  • In reply to ImissButkus:

    o.k.on a lighter note..hhhhhhheeeeeeeeeehhhhhhhhhhhhhheeeeeeee

    Did any bloggers know this actually existed?

    http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-Hate-Brett-Favre/256613316777

Leave a comment