Guest Post: Dave Martinez's tutelage under Maddon makes him an intriguing candidate

Jake Larsen is a Cubs Den reader and a "Free-lance Rays/General Baseball Blogger" who is always known for putting his 2 cents in(and likely more).  I've had many great conversations with him on Twitter and he is an advocate for Dave Martinez as the Cubs next manager.  He has a deeper knowledge of the Rays coach than most of us here in Chicago, so I asked him to put a few more than two cents in for us here on that subject.  You can follow him on Twitter at @jakelarsen and look for his podcast, which is coming soon.

Why Dave Martinez is the best candidate for the Cubs job

by Jake Larsen

As a Chicago-resident Rays fan, it's not often where the 2 teams interact in any way. Sure, there's trades that occur or media's report of one team's interest in another team's lesser-known player. However, nothing really goes on between the 2 teams. Sometime this week(possibly today or tomorrow) will be one of those rare times where interaction between the 2 organizations occur, when Dave Martinez gets an interview for the Chicago Cubs managerial position.

Having seen Dave Martinez as bench coach for the last 6 years(which, have also been one of the most successful 6 year stretches in all of baseball w/ the Rays averaging 92 wins a year), I almost feel like I know him enough to write a piece about him. It's quite a surprise to me that he continually remains as a member of the Rays managerial staff, instead of being hired as a manager. His only blemish, he has no managerial experience. Is that by Maddon's design, where he picks a long-term successor as his bench coach & inexperience in managing holds him up from leaving for his own managerial job? Seems like a foolish theory, but both Maddon & Martinez are "out of the box" thinkers...so I wouldn't be surprised.
What makes the Maddon-Martinez pairing "work" so well is that they think very similar about situations & what they'd do if they had encountered it in a game. If Maddon had gotten ejected & Martinez had to finish the game as  manager, nothing really would change & you really wouldn't really notice a playing-style by the team. When they do disagree about things, strategically or what-have-you, Maddon listens to what Dave has to say & takes it into strong consideration instead of waving it off or disregarding it. When the Rays started being a "shift-heavy" fielding team known for it's efficiency, it's believed by many that Martinez & not Maddon was the "evil genius" behind it. The Rays may not have the best fielders, in terms of error-totals or UZR, but the team continually ranks Top 5 in the MLB in Defensive Efficiency. Even in 2013, when the Rays style didn't exactly meld with the common Pitching & Fielding-first practices that led them to success in the past, the Rays still had the 2nd lowest Error total season-wide n MLB history(with only this year's Orioles ahead of them) & had a Top 10 team in DRS(Defensive Runs Saved). Conversely, the Cubs were in the Bottom 4 in Team DRS,
Knowing part of the criteria for the Cubs managerial job hinges on a player development & possibly some knowledge of the Spanish language, those both fit well with Martinez. Martinez is of Latin American decent & has served as translator in Spring Training interviews for young Latin American prospects or incoming free agents who may feel uncomfortable speaking English to the media. Also, just from coaching for the Rays organization is well-groomed in dealing with young prospects & talent on an almost-yearly basis. The Rays hand is sometimes forced to bring up a prospect who isn't 100% ready to be in the majors, but unlike Tampa Bay teams of yesteryear, those young players are quite familiar with "The Rays Way" & don't fall completely on their faces in their debuts. It's never a guarantee that a stud prospect in AA or AAA will turn out to be a stud at the MLB level, but it's always good to have a coach or manager that makes it seem like they're quite close to being the stud that they were in the minors(Evan Longoria, Desmond Jennings, Ben Zobrist, James Shields, David Price, Jeremy Hellickson, Matt Moore, Jake McGee, Alex Cobb, Alex Torres & Chris Archer all have graduated from the Rays farm & have shown success at the MLB level in the last 6 years)

Comments

Leave a comment
  • One thing about Martinez, he did learn under the best

  • fb_avatar
    In reply to mutant beast:

    After reading this interview:
    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/qa-dave-martinez-tampa-bay-bench-coach/

    I am 100% on board with hiring Dave.

  • One thing about Martinez, he did at least learn under

  • fb_avatar

    Chris Archer was a gift from the Cubs. Not developed by the Rays

  • In reply to Jorge Soler:

    I believe Chris Archer spent near equal time in the Indians, Cubs and Rays ML systems.

  • fb_avatar

    Good article. This would be my pick also. I love the out of the box thinking style, which Theo also has. The Latin American background is also a bonus. It seems the only missing link here is the lack of managerial experience. However, Maddon, Francona and every other manager had to start somewhere. Maybe his start should be the Cubs.

  • Did or didn't he bang Cindy Sandberg?
    Seems important to finally get the answer to that question.
    If yes, he'd be a very tough sell to the huge segment of Cubs fans who are Ryno lovers forever.
    If the rumor keeps hanging out there, he also remains a tough sell.
    The whole thing sucks for Davey if it's false. Because, just like any publicity about a falsely accused person, one gets unfairly tarnished
    But life isn't always fair. There's an elephant in this room.
    If he didn't do it, then tell that to Theo and Jed.
    But Davey shouldn't be the one to say to the public that it didn't happen.
    A Cub spokesman would.
    "A rumor has persisted for many years that Davey did something off the field while he was a Cubs player. He did not. End of story."

  • fb_avatar
    In reply to michaelc:

    If this has any weight on the hiring or not of Dave, then Theo and Jed should be fired. Who cares what he did 20 years ago?

  • In reply to Demarrer:

    Maybe he should manage the Pirates. He would get more bang for his Buc.

  • In reply to Demarrer:

    Agree. People that live in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones. I'm a great guy ;-), but even I have done things I regret and/or would not be accepted by society.

  • fb_avatar
    In reply to Demarrer:

    In my opinion, it shows a terrible lack of character and lack of compassion for his teammates. Not exactly a guy I want guiding my young players. I have been against the idea of Martinez as manager for as long as I can remember. Not because I give a hoot about Sandberg, but because of the lack of character

  • In reply to Mike Partipilo:

    I think it's safe to say that we have all done things in our youth that we regret and would like to take back. Did he use extremely poor judgement 25 years ago? Absolutely. But I think that I can safely say that he is not that same guy. Have you heard of any other character issues regarding Dave Martinez outside of this incident? He has grown as a person as he has matured and everyone else should too. The Cubs are trying to build a model for success much the same way that the Rays have done. They don't have an issue with Dave guiding their young players. Joe Maddon is considered one of the best managers in the game & is well respected. He trusts & relies on Dave to help run that ball club. I don't know if Theo will choose Dave to be the next manager of the Cubs but if he does I think the Cubs will have a very good manager.

  • In reply to Mike Partipilo:

    Fortunately he is almost certainly no longer "that guy." He's an adult now. I really don't get why some of us are looking into Martinez' alleged personal issues and not the other candidates.

  • fb_avatar
    In reply to Demarrer:

    I agree with you that Jed and Theo shouldn't concern themselves with it, but I do think it is -- reasonably -- something that Tom Ricketts should be worried about. Sandberg has a lot of value as a goodwill ambassador -- assuming he still has goodwill to the Cubs and the new ownershp -- and Ricketts may be unwilling to risk that for a guy who is getting his first major league managing job. It's not entirely fair to Jed and Theo (or Martinez), but it is a business.

  • fb_avatar
    In reply to Mike Moody:

    A goodwill ambassador is not somebody who manages a rival team. If the Cubs were to play the Phillies in next seasons playoffs, should the Cubs be expected to lie down and lose because Ryne Sandberg is a good guy and former Cubs player? No. He is the enemy.

    If Ryne Sandberg still worked for the Chicago Cubs it would be an issue. But he does not, so it shouldn't matter and besides, nobody has ever given factual reference or evidence implicating Martinez. It's really a joke.

    I'd be more fearful of Tampa's inability to develop young hitters. If there is a hitting philosophy that doesn't mesh with what the front office expects, that would be a reason not to hire Martinez, if in fact, that falls under the umbrella of his current responsibilities. As a bench coach, I'm thinking not.

    If the Cubs win under Martinez, nobody will give a rats ass who he did or did not sleep with, allegedly.

  • In reply to Michael Canter:

    Amen brother. Amen.

  • In reply to Michael Canter:

    Rays have always been a pitching first system but I think it has done well with some hitter. Because of the lack true hitters in their system causes them to rely purely situational hitting and being aggressive on the bases. They do a great job at that.

  • In reply to Demarrer:

    I totally agree. That has no weight on whether or not he can be a successful manager of the Cubs.

  • In reply to michaelc:

    who the hell cares?....

  • In reply to HoosierDaddy:

    Not me. I wonder if the HOFer is without any guilt of doing the same during the marriage.

  • In reply to Moonlight:

    His teammates note that they never saw him as much as talk to another woman. Also, the mates noted that he rarely went out on the road preferring to go to is room, order in, and watch ESPN. Maybe Cindy was driven to the 'wild side' by boredom.

  • In reply to 44slug:

    I'm actually friends with one of his former teammates and he has said as much to me so far as Ryno not being a "party" guy. "Gracie" on the other hand "didn't get cheated"....

  • In reply to michaelc:

    That's in the past. Like 25 years ago. Who cares? It absolutely has nothing to do with the cubs search for a manager. I'm sure Dave, Ryno, Theo, and Jed are not even considering it or have put it behind them. I think you and everyone else should as well. Doesn't it seem ridiculous that the people involved have and you haven't?

  • In reply to michaelc:

    The true story probably wouldn't matter to the average "Cub fan". Most will believe what ever story, true or false, that they want to embrace.

  • In reply to Moonlight:

    Very true.

  • In reply to michaelc:

    Not a factor. Especially since it's just a rumor and has never really been confirmed.

    It's a long time ago. You can't not hire someone because of that if he's the best candidate.

  • I like him as a baseball guy and even think he'd make a great manager. Not convinced it's the right fit or time for that to happen in Chicago. But that Epstoyer's call. I'd almost rather he had failed somewhere else first ala Acta or Hinch. I fear that his lack of experience with the media may also give him troubles in a large market like Chicago. Though he couldn't be worse than Sveum in that regards and is IMO, an upgrade in other areas.

  • In reply to HoosierDaddy:

    I feel similarly. I like Martinez a lot but I wonder if he's the best fit. I think his strength is his in-game managing which isn't the main thing the team is looking for. I think Martinez is going to make a great manager at some point, but does he best fit the criteria the Cubs are looking for? I'm not so sure.

  • In reply to HoosierDaddy:

    Here is my concern with Hinch most after their first managing job is a disaster they catch on with a coaching job and learn a few things to use the next time they get a shot. Hinch went straight back to the FO gaining no more in the dugout field experience. I agree he has a great baseball mind but the fact he hasn't gained any more field level experience scares the hell out of me.

  • In reply to KGallo:

    I see your point, but hasn't he still been interacting with and active in the development of young players? Granted, he may not be in the dugout or in game situations, or even the guy reviewing film and throwing BP... but given his baseball IQ, is that what's most critical?

    You know one interesting angle with Hinch, and this is purely speculation on my part... but let's say that none of them are really "their guy". Maybe "their guy" just isn't available right now... But they know McLeod is 1-2 years away from a GM gig elsewhere; and Hinch is 'their guy' to replace him. Every successful business has a succession plan to replace key talent and that includes internal & external candidates. Is it out of the realm of possibilities that they hire Hinch and then in 1 or 2 years we're stacked with talent and Mcleod gets a GM job elsewhere so they 'promote' Hinch to fill his spot and now that we are ready to compete year in and year out they go out and hire a real field general that is 'their guy'?... Crazy, right?...

  • In reply to HoosierDaddy:

    Why would Hinch talk a manager job to take the same position he has with the padres? Being on the field talking with the young players is one thing but being on the field coaching them is another and as a assistant GM that isn't his job.

  • In reply to KGallo:

    The one thing that cannot be overlooked is this: The Cubs FO views AJ Hinch as a top 4 candidate -- for manager. They believe he is one of the 4 best candidates (and maybe THE best candidate) for the job. They have considered everything you have said yet he survived the weeding out process, was the first to interview (they asked for him before they asked for Renteria). That's the bottom line. The Cubs feel he is quite possibly the right person for the job or they wouldn't have narrowed it down to having him as one of their top 4 for the job. And as I've said, the Cubs are not the only ones who thinks so.

    We can have our favorites, but we can't say Hinch isn't a serious candidate. He is. And for all we know, he may end up being the guy.

  • In reply to John Arguello:

    but is it inconceivable that he could be the heir apparent to replace McLeod (assuming he's gone for a GM opp) being a nice back-up or succession plan? This way, even if he fails as a manager again, they save face....

  • In reply to HoosierDaddy:

    Conceivable and I think a bump upwards is a possibility if they decide he's not the guy to take the reins long term. Of course, it's also possible he succeeds and grows with the team. It'd be an interesting choice.

  • In reply to John Arguello:

    I am not saying he isn't I am voicing my concerns.

  • In reply to KGallo:

    I know. I'm just saying those things have been considered and he's still standing -- but I'm sure they'll weigh in on that until the very end. It is a concern.

  • In reply to John Arguello:

    I also am concerned that a manager can't just be a teacher he must be a leader or he will lose the clubhouse and all the development will be lost.

  • I know at some point people will bring up Sandberg. So i will but for a different reason. It just seems odd that he different even get a sniff for the job. Ryno was single A manager in 07 and 08. Was AA manager in 2009 and AAA in 2010. Only had 1 losing season in four years at a time where the system wasn't very strong. It looked like he was on a path to manage/coach at the big league level in chicago. Why would they promote him? Then new FO came in and never gave him a chance. Just seems odd especially with the characters we are interviewing now and then. Not saying he should be manager but saying he is good enough to be interviewed.

  • In reply to WaitTilNextYear:

    He didn't fit the criteria they had outlined 2yrs ago. Now he is under contract with PHI. Timing is everything....

  • In reply to HoosierDaddy:

    It just seemed odd. It looked like he was set up to manage/coach at the big league level and a new FO office came in and was not interested. What criteria did they have 2 years ago? I understand now he is under contract, but to put Dale and Quade in there in front of him.

  • In reply to WaitTilNextYear:

    The Cubs start off with a huge list and pare it down based on research, conversations with the industry, etc. Ryno is widely known as an old-school type of manager and that can immediately cause communication issues as far as front office philosophy.

    The better question is this: Why should Sandberg be considered? Because he's an ex-Cub? Because he's a HOF'er? Because he's managed in the minors? The first two aren't really reasons and the minor league managing experience factor is common. There are tons of candidates with similar experience, many were more successful than he was and many of them have a philosophy that's more similar to this front office than Sandberg does. Why should he get an interview over similarly qualified guys but guys who are better fits with what the organization? The answer inevitably comes down to things that don't really matter.

  • fb_avatar
    In reply to John Arguello:

    Hypotheticals are irrelevant in speaking with a situation that can not possibly happen. Sandberg is under contract now with Philadelphia. Case closed. Same with Girardi. I refuse to waste time with wouldofs, shouldofs, and couldofs.

  • In reply to the real alman:

    Understand that Ryno is in Philly. But people have made good points about Ryno. Makes for good conversation.

  • In reply to WaitTilNextYear:

    Dude, it doesn't even make for good conversation. The Ryno issue is Ovahhh. It's like having a debate over who would win in a fantasy boxing match between Ali and Holyfield. Get over it!

  • In reply to Stevo1:

    Dude... It makes for great conversations. I just don't want it to a situation where we look back and say oooops. I am past it. It just could be one of those I told you so moments. I' d take Ali in 4 rounds.

  • fb_avatar
    In reply to John Arguello:

    I agree with you John. Quade's managerial and coaching resume was actually far more accomplished than Sandberg's at the time. Obviously in baseball, not everything is black and white. As they say, you don;'t win games on paper.

  • In reply to Mike Partipilo:

    If you don't win games on paper. Then they should have went with Sandberg over Quade.

  • In reply to John Arguello:

    To your questions, yes. That is exactly why he should be considered and those two qualifications are two of the biggest that can and should be considered.

    Being a Hall of Famer is extremely rare. Just because a few in the past did not have success as manager's, says nothing about the knowledge and experience required to be a manager.

    And, revenues matter as well. So do the fans. They don't "like" Sandberg. They love him. And it would cause a whole hell of a lot of people to come to the ballpark again.

  • In reply to givejonadollar:

    They may be considerations for fans, but not for a front office. And as much as we sometimes would like them to, they don't make decision based on what fans want. They'll do what's best for the success of the organization.

    What's more, nobody will come to watch Sandberg sit in the dugout if the Cubs are losing anyway. But they will come out when the Cubs win, so it's the front office's job to get the guy that they feel is mostly likely to either win, or get them moving in that direction. Once that happens, the fans will come.

  • In reply to John Arguello:

    Girardi, Mattingly, Matheny, Ventura had success as players and are managing (or got their jobs managing) with little experience; three of the four with some current success. Yes, there were some sentimental reason to have considered Ryno. But on merit alone, he did more than "manage" in the minors, he "successfully" managed in the minors, he played fundementally sound baseball as a player, both in the field at at the plate, he had a reputation among the developing ball players that he worked with in the Cubs minor league system as an excelent teacher-someone they respected and a firey leader (didn't he lead one of the leagues he was in while managing for getting thrown out of games?). Yes, he may be a bit old school, but in in any system where Sabremetrics has a role, the game is not run purely by the numbers. My guess is it may be weighted one way or the other between Sabermetics and older school techniques, but it is a combination nonetheless. The Ryno thing baffles me. There has to more there.

  • In reply to All W Days:

    I agree with you. I am left scratching my head. It looked as the he was on a path to manage/coach with the cubs. Would have been a fun ride.

  • fb_avatar
    In reply to WaitTilNextYear:

    I don't think Ryne Sandberg is going to fare very well as a manager. I don't think he will be able to handle players with contracts that dwarf small corporations. But that's personal opinion. I'm glad the Cubs weren't forced to consider him.

    I wouldn't be afraid to bet that Sandberg doesn't finish the year managing that team.

  • In reply to Michael Canter:

    I'll take you up on that bet. I don't think phillies hired him to be a dale duck situation. I think he'll do fine.

  • In reply to Michael Canter:

    Your other post didn't have a reply button. We understand he is a philly. I do wonder if phillies hadn't offered a contract if FO would have talked to him this time. With the list of lack luster managers we have interviewed, Ryno would have been a strong option. But that is a dead point. Fun to talk about. I personally have never even heard about the rumors until I read them on here. Wish I didn't know about them. So I have never mentioned them in my post.

    Really you are almost embarrassed to be a cub fan cause we are talking about Ryno? Nothing to do with worse record in baseball? If you don't like to discuss it then skip the post.

    How dare you question his loyalty. He was a cub for many years and played a huge bulk of his career with the cubs and retired as a cub. Then he wants to stay in baseball, so he decides to coach. Ryno then manages in peoria for two years. Then manages in Tennessee a year gets passed up for quade. Still he manages in Iowa for a year and then get snubbed for even a interview and so he leaves for a organization that DRAFTED him. Seems like he has been pretty loyal to his teams? You want to play the loyal card? look in the current FO office then. I hope the phillies the best except when they play the cubs. Just don't want to look back and say well we screwed that up.

  • In reply to Michael Canter:

    We better tell the dodgers that Donny baseball is loyal since he isn't managing the Yankees.

  • In reply to John Arguello:

    I have seen this huge list we have and have a lot of questions. Was there a huge list when the stuck Quade in there? I don't remember other names besides Dale and Maddux.

    What is wrong with a old school type of manager. Old school managers have discipline, expect guys to play hard and smart and if the don't then there are consequences, and do a good job of in game strategy. John for you to translate that into communication issues is not fair to Sandberg.

    You are answering your questions for me. Being a HOF'er is a great way to start off a resume. Being an Ex-cub should be plus and would make a great story line once he got us to contend. Now you are attacking his lack of experience and all you have done is defend the shaky list of managers that have no experience. Or as you said what if tampa didn't take a chance with Maddon or Red sox with Franconia. It just looked like Sandberg was on track to coach/manage with the cubs. Worked his way up. Also believe he had to work with Barney and Castro. When I look at the list from the past and who they hired and the list now.. i am left shaking my head and don't see how those guys were be suited then sandberg. And for you to say that just baffles me. Did you ever cover him in the minors?

  • In reply to WaitTilNextYear:

    Story lines don't make great managers. Nice for media and fans, but its no way to make a responsible decision for the organization.

    And when I mean old school, I'm talking about game management. Both new school and old school managers have their players play hard, but there's a philosophy of new school thinking that is at odds with old school when it comes to day to day game management. Just won't work. Not only are they philosophically opposed but those are differences that could hinder communications with the FO. If they had the chance, they wouldn't even hire an old school guy like Mike Scioscia or Ron Gardenhire -- and they're MLB managers with some history of success and there's just no way they're going to hire Sandberg just because he's a HOF or an ex-Cub. It's not even a consideration or a part of their criteria.

  • In reply to John Arguello:

    I don't want a story line. I want a the right guy to have a chance to manage. He did everything he could as a player and a manager to deserve a shot with this team. I don't see how you don't think he deserved a chance. You could also argue the way the made a choice for quade and sveum wasn't responsible.

    Give me an example of old school and new school managing difference. Do you mean old school is more likely to bunt? What indication do you have that Ryno is not good at communicating?

    So we will hire quade, sveum , and any other scrub on the list. What makes these guys new school and what they can do better?

    Not saying should hire Sandburg because of HOF'er but damn he has a good resume for any starting out manager. And he finished 20-22 on the season. I know that is a small sample but we cub fans would have loved to finish that strong. I know it won't happen but it makes for good conversation that I enjoy talking about. I also believe that Ryno will have a better managing career then anyone on this list of cub hopefuls.

  • In reply to WaitTilNextYear:

    You hire guys who are fits for your organization. I'm not sure why that's so difficult to understand. All good organizations look to hire good fits for the way they do things. Nothing you have said about him indicates that he is a good fit with this front office and the way they run the organization. It's all fan stuff that doesn't matter in the real world. You defend his old school philosophy --that's fine if you like it, but that's not what the FO wants. It's that simple. You're asking the Cubs to make an exception for the way they do things because of who he is. That's just wrong.

  • In reply to John Arguello:

    What doesn't he fit? All you can say is old school and I have ask you to give me an example of how that mite conflict. What is the difference between old school and new school? Do all good organization miss the boat? The last two have been a joke and this list is a step better then that.

    Nothing you have said proves he wouldn't have been a good threat. I told you he worked with young guys like Castro and Barney. They would be familiar with him. The way Sandburg approached the game and his work ethic would be beneficial to the young team. The fact that he started in a ball means he is serious about it and has done well wherever he has been. Not sure why those are hard to understand and have repeatedly said to you.

    I am asking cubs to make a smart choice. That is perfectly fair of me. Since when have the cubs had a way or a system for hiring a coach? I am saying he has plenty of positives as a manager. Mark my words this will be a decision FO will regret and have to hear about it when it happens. If any of the guys the list had a HOF on their resume you would be all over that. If these duds make it I will be first one to give props to them.

  • fb_avatar
    In reply to WaitTilNextYear:

    Ryne Sandberg is the Phillies manager. Why is everybody so goddamned worried about his feelings and over an unsubstantiated rumor, no less. My god, let it go. It is such a non issue. I'm almost embarrassed to be a Cubs fan. He works for ANOTHER ORGANIZATION! Is this how we base decisions, on what a rival manager may think? Why isn't anybody offended he left the Cubs to begin with? Where is his loyalty to you as fans? Where is his allegiance to the Cubs? This is the most ridiculous thread I've ever read. He is a Phillies employee now. BFD.

  • In reply to WaitTilNextYear:

    Quade is old school and hired by the old regime. It's not hard to understand, just that the reasons you have are irrelevant when choosing a manager in the real world. I'm not going to convince you of anything because you're a fan of Sandberg and you are just going to believe he is more special than he really is. You're not thinking objectively, you're just thinking as a fan.

  • In reply to WaitTilNextYear:

    Where is quade now? I have given you plenty of facts that would make him a good manager. You choose to ignore them. All you say is old school. That is a very blanketed statement. Tell me what that means? What does old school have to do with developing talent and in game strategies? Most of the time I think you do a good job getting facts, but this time you are coming up short. Write an article on that topic? Find out why Hendry passed up on him or this FO did. And if proven wrong I will gladly apologize for the comments and say I am wrong. I am a huge fan of the cubs and I also think I am pretty knowledgable when it comes to reading people, strategies, how to teach the game, and getting results. I just don't want this to be one of those moves we regret in a two years. This isn't like the harden for Donaldson deal. We knew what we were doing this time.

  • In reply to WaitTilNextYear:

    I find it hard to believe Hendry chose Quade over Ryno when Lou quit the managers gig.Ryno as noted paid his dues in the minors for the Cubs 4 years and I don't recall anything Quade ever did in his past to leap ahead of Ryno. Hendry probably made the decision after too many bourbon on the rocks or just plain didn't like him.

  • In reply to TheRiot2:

    My theory has always been this:
    Ryno showed interest in managing after Dusty left. Hendry, not wanting to alienate Ryno & piss off the fan base said sorry no experience, but you can get some managing experience in the low minors. Jim probably figured that Ryno wouldn't want to ride buses, or get bored & quit, or not be successful, but that never happened. He enjoyed managing, he was successful, & he was getting that experience that he lacked. He paid his dues in the minors & when Lou resigned he probably figured he was the heir apparent. I know that's what I thought. He did everything that Hendry asked him to do & he was successful doing it. Hendry was on his last leg as GM & wanted a guy with more MLB coaching experience so Quade got the job. Bad decision for Jim, Quade, Sandberg, & the fans. Can't say that Ryno would have won more games than Quade & he would most likely have been fired by now, but all he wanted was a chance to manage the Cubs & he didn't get it.

  • In reply to lets go cubs:

    This board is quickly assuming an all-Ryne-all-the-time theme. Cut it out. Same arguments every day. I appreciate John's point: Why SHOULD he be considered?

  • Here is a question for everyone. If the biggest question about him is something that happen 20 years ago and they don't hire him because of that and only that. Wouldn't that piss you guys off if he is the best candidate?

  • In reply to KGallo:

    Absolutely. I don't think it will factor in at all.

  • fb_avatar
    In reply to KGallo:

    I liken the situation to Roberto Alomar and the "spitting incident" back in the day. At the time, he still had a lot of playing left in his body. If you were a team at that point, and needed a second baseman to put you over the top for a championship run, would you REALLY not pick him up because of it? The issue becomes morality vs. success. Meaning, morality always has a place in every decision, but is it the sole guiding force? For example, morality would have been enough to say NO to John Rocker as he was extremely disgusting as a human being and his views of gay people, but Success would have taken precedent to say YES to guys like Alomar.

    I love Sandberg, and he will always be my favorite player of all time. But I don't know what happened 20 years ago. Even if something happened, was it bad enough to say NO to Martinez who possibly is the best fit for this team? Two willing people engaging in an act that is no ones business than the parties involved? I'm a bleeding heart Sandberg fan who will always have a chip on his shoulder for Sandberg being passed over for Quade. But this is not an issue that should play any legitimate part in any managerial decision. Sandberg is with another organization. You do what's best for the Cubs, not for former players.

  • fb_avatar
    In reply to the real alman:

    I think it's different. Alomar acted impulsively toward someone with whom he had no kinship. Martinez (allegedly) bedded his teammates wife. Whole different story.

  • In reply to KGallo:

    YES.

  • In reply to rockyje:

    Take the best candidate and roll the dice.

  • In reply to KGallo:

    No it won't bother me. If FO feels like that, then so be it. The fact they even interview Dave shows they don't care about what happened long ago.

  • Hi John,

    Off topic, I know, but have the Cubs completed their mid season deals for cash or players to be named?

  • In reply to AZBOB:

    They got Ramirez as the Texas player to be named later but trying to remember the other ones. They didn't get anything for DeJesus except salary relief. Am I missing one?

  • Ryne Sandberg is one of my favorite players of all time( along with Dawson Billy Williams and Ron Santo) but if Dave Martinez is the right guy for the job then hire him. Everything else is bs and ancient history. Time to turn the page and win a WS.

  • fb_avatar

    Forgiveness is available to anyone. As a fan you are not a part of what happened between Ryno and Dave. We must eliminate emotions and look at other factors. #1 The media will play this story up and the players will know about the past.

    #2 A manager must have the trust and respect of his players... is that possible? In Tampa the players may not even know what happened 20 years ago, but they will in Chicago. The past will always come up, especially if Philly is winning and Davey is getting second guessed while losing.

    At an rate if he is hired the past will have to be addressed with the media and possibly the players.

  • fb_avatar
    In reply to Nick Johnson:

    " In Tampa the players may not even know what happened 20 years ago, but they will in Chicago."

    That's a very fair point Nick. The first time the Cubs play the Phillies the "rumor" WILL makes it way through the clubhouse.

  • My fear is that perception is reality and where one finds that much smoke, one usually finds fire. I've gone full circle on this issue even to point of an in-depth google search. However, if is considered the best candidate I'm in favor, but he better hit the ground running because his window will be shorter. If He sucks Theo Jed, and Davy might be on the same.Clark street bus out of Wrigley.

  • Look at the coaching trees in baseball and in other sports. Names like Bill Walsh, Scotty Bowman, Tony LaRussa immediately jump out as those whose former assistants became great head coaches. Joe Maddon just might be another of those and Dave Martinez the next big thing.

  • I want Dave Martinez. The rest are blah!!

  • In reply to Moonlight:

    I know that I don't know even 1/10th about these guys that Theo/Jed do, but with that qualification out of the way, Martinez is the guy that excites me the most: learned from Maddon (one of the best in the game); has some familiarity with the local market/media/history so it shouldn't blindside him; seems like he's well respected; has worked with/helped develop young players (Longoria, Jennings, et al); is Spanish speaking; is young and can grow alongside the rest of the team; seems to be a good in game manager. He is more intruiging to me than either Acta/Hinch.

  • In reply to Pura Vida:

    The way u describe Dave, you could also be talking about Ryno.

  • fb_avatar
    In reply to WaitTilNextYear:

    Except Ryno is employed by another team? Why does this guys' name even come up? I don't get it. It sounds like Joe Maddon also, but we can't get him either. I find it so strange people get so upset the Cubs didn't hire Sanberg like they missed out on a stud manager. We have no idea if he will be good.

  • In reply to Demarrer:

    We also have no idea if this list of four or five people that have interviewed are any good? To me if you are gonna take a chance, which we are Ryno wouldn't have been a bad choice. With him out of the equation, this,list looks scary.

  • Nice article by Jake. But let's get to the real question here:

    How the heck does someone become a Chicago-resident Rays fan???

  • I like Martinez to be a manager despite who he did or did not do 20 years ago. Would I hire him as a minister or a marriage counselor, probably not. Manager fine.

    However, if he was still a womanizer today, I do consider that an issue. I think the manager needs to have the respect of his players.

  • In reply to Holy Cattle:

    Would being a womanizer be a plus or minus in a major league dugout?

  • In reply to 44slug:

    Ask Tony Pena. It's what contributed to his demise in KC.

  • In reply to kansasblackhawk:

    I thought his demise was caused by his resignation after going from manager of the year to 104 losses.

  • In reply to 44slug:

    In this situation it would be a minus. Considering the message the FO is trying to send to it's young players after the Castro situation.

  • In reply to 44slug:

    It didn't matter to Leo, himself a notorious womanizer.

  • In reply to 44slug:

    Do we know that Dave Martinez is a womanizer? We know a rumor about him & the former Mrs. Sandberg but that alone doesn't make him a womanizer. It shows that he had a lapse in judgement 25 years ago if the rumor is true. I believe that he has grown since that time and would not have an issue with him as the next manager of the Cubs.

  • He seems a perfect fit, but no experience. Lets hope this not
    going to the main issue again him. Anybody named Martinez
    is ok with me. Emartinezjr

  • In reply to emartinezjr:

    Maybe they could hire you as hitting coach! heh heh heh

  • To me, if the rumor is true, is speaks to DM's credibility and moral compass. Knowingly sleeping with another guys wife is, in itself bogus. Banging a teammate's wife? Unacceptable.

    Dude was a major league baseball player. He probably could have hooked up with a different woman every night - or multiple chicks per week. No reason to bang a teammates wife.

    As far as I know - its a rumor and it happened 20 years ago (if it happened at all). If he is the right fit - bring him in. But the last thing this team needs is the story coming to light once he is the manager. It would be just one more distraction on a team that already has too many.

    That said, if he is hired, can you imagine what the vibe will be the first time the Cubs played PHIL?

  • In reply to Roscoe Village:

    Benches would clear before the first pitch!

  • fb_avatar

    I'm not really overwhelmed by Martinez. I read that fangraphs article expecting this highly analytical approach and just didn't get it. I'm not saying it's a terrible thing, just thinking after Svuem, they will look for someone with a greater accumen in that category. Because Joe is highly analytical, Martinez is probably a great bench coach for him as he does see things through a different spectrum and differing opinions is a good thing when the egos can handle it.

  • fb_avatar

    Put me in the Renteria or Hinch boat...I like some of the things I've read about Renteria and Hinch would most certainly have taken a lot away from his first managerial stint. I know it was unsuccessful, but the really good ones don't just fail, they analyze what didn't work the first time and fix it.

  • Call me crazy but.... I'd be okay with every registered Cubs Den user taking a run at Cindy Sandberg, and I'd let you guys wear my #23 white pin stripe jersey during the act if it meant a World Series championship in my lifetime....

    Obviously, I'm being facetious. I guess I'm just surprised that some people can have such strong feelings about something they have very little factual evidence of even happening, from such a long ago, and doesn't even concern them personally.... time to move on.

  • In reply to HoosierDaddy:

    Couldn't agree more with your second paragraph.

    The current front office could not care less about this ancient history, nor do 99% of the fan base. 98% aren't even aware of it.

    If this still bothers Sandberg, I don't really care. He doesn't care about me. Or any of you. Nor should he.

  • In reply to HoosierDaddy:

    Totally agree.

  • I don't care if we hire someone like Don Zimmer who manages with gut feelings instead of a spreadsheet as long as we win.

    As far as what may or may not have happened years ago with some baseball groupie and a bored young guy, try reading "Ball Four" and see if that alters your outlook on that matter.

  • 8 pitches or so, 7 change-ups 1 slider to Bryant and a walk. Obvi staying away from him with the hard stuff. But, nice to see him started to raise his OBP like he was doing at San Diego. Thus, becoming more comfortable with the next level of play.

  • In reply to Buzz:

    Feared hitter already.

  • In reply to John Arguello:

    Being 6"5 will scare me and that swing o my

  • This Jake Larsen fellow is a smart man.

  • Dave Martinez would be solid. All four of these guys are right for the job in one way or another. I don't really care at this point.

    My main concern is the lack of veteran leadership to nurture all those young guys that are coming. IMO, as long as guys that are under 25 are carrying the load, as in hitting 2nd, 3rd, 4th, AND 5th, they're going to have trouble being more than a .500 team. You can't just go out and get a veteran just because he's a veteran though, so I applaud them for that. It has to be the right guy. Because of that, I have to say that I was shocked they traded DeJesus and I think that was a miss of a move. He was an on-base guy who was beloved in the clubhouse and isn't above sitting on the bench when Bryant or Soler or whoever shows up. Victorino would've been a really great fit too, IMO. Not like he wanted to come here anyway, and therein lies the catch 22. Quality veteran guys that are talented and have a big clubhouse presence don't want to sign with losing teams. Hence, maybe we should trade for one. They have to get a 29-32 year old known commodity in the middle of the line up somehow. I bet the new manager would agree.

  • In reply to Ben20:

    Isn't DDJ a free agent?

  • In reply to 44slug:

    Provided his 6.5MM option isn't picked up by the Rays. It could have been voided by a trade. I'm not totally sure.

    Either way, he's that one rare guy who I can see returning to a team for a pay cut. They already held that 6.5 option on him so they'll surely not give him that much. I'm hoping that they only traded him with the gentleman's agreement that they'd restructure in the off-season. I can see a 1yr 4MM deal with an option and buyout for 2015. Maybe a 5.5 MM option with a 1MM or 500K buyout. He's right there on the borderline of getting two guaranteed years from somebody. We know how much his family concerns point toward Chicago though.

  • In reply to Ben20:

    If I were the Rays I would keep him. He's tailor made for their team. Fits on any team, really. I can see the Tigers in on him. The Phillies, Rangers, Reds. Of the realistic targets of the Cubs this winter, he's #2 on my personal list after Tanaka. Price would edge him out too.

  • In reply to Ben20:

    I think the Rays like him and will pick up his option so he won't be available to the Cubs next year.

    My #2 after Tanaka is S. Baker. He would provide excellent veteran leadership that you want on the team.

  • In reply to John57:

    That's a solid #2. I like Alexi Casilla as well as a switch hitting bench guy who can handle short.

    I'm sure they love him but the only guy that made more than 6.5 MM on their whole team last year was Price. For them, that's too much money for a guy that's not going to play every day. Longoria's only going to be making 7.5 next year. I doubt they pick it up.

  • In reply to Ben20:

    What you say about the group,of manager is what worries me. Nobody to grab our attention.

  • In reply to WaitTilNextYear:

    I don't necessarily need my attention to be grabbed. Those definitely are some lack luster choices but I'd rather them grab my attention, so to speak with player acquisitions in stead of a manager. They're not worried about our attention nor should they be.

  • In reply to Ben20:

    When I say grab our attention, I mean we need to have better then lack luster choices. You can have quality people in the line up but some one has to guide the ship the right way. So yes they need to hire a guy that gets us pumped.

  • The "Right Hand Man" thing is often over-rated. Anybody remember who Phil Bengtson was?

    He was Vince Lombardi's right hand man and went 21-25 in 3 years, after taking over when Vince left.

  • In reply to GAHillbilly:

    I hate when people make comparisons between sports.

  • In reply to KGallo:

    Some things are universal.

  • In reply to GAHillbilly:

    Even so... That's one reeeeally random example. And you could.gif ten to match it the opposite way.

  • fb_avatar

    I love all this insinuation about Martinez's character without any proof. Someone wrotes something in an article accusing someone of something, So it must be true. Because if it wasn't, why would anyone bother to write about it.

    Anyways, here is what I know.

    Martinez has never admitted to sleeping with Cindy Sandberg.

    Cindy Sandberg has never said she slept with Martinez.

    Ryne Sandberg has never actually accused Martinez, at least not in public, of sleeping with Cindy.

    Something else that never gets mentioned in all of this is that, among all the rumors and innuendos involving Cindy Sandberg and various Cubs' players, no one ever mentions the rumors that Sandberg was sleeping around too.

    It also never gets mentioned that there were rumors that Mark Grace and Cindy had an affair, but all anyone ever seems to want to talk about are the Hispanic and black players she supposedly balled.

    I don't doubt for an instant that Cindy Sandberg had issues. Hell, anyone who'd where the ugly assed dresses she did is bound to have them.She may well have been a nymphomaniac slut. She may also have just been a crazy bitch who said shit just to torture her husband.

    The point is we don't really know what happened between Ryne and Cindy or between Cindy and Ryne's team mates, and unsubstantiated rumors shouldn't disqualify someone who might be just what the Cubs need at the helm.

  • In reply to Michael Caldwell:

    Exactly. Couldn't agree more.

  • fb_avatar
    In reply to John Arguello:

    Thank you!

  • In reply to Michael Caldwell:

    Little late for a comment here, but in fairness to Cindy, a Google search shows numerous family recipes and a story about how she mended minor league uniforms to supplement the family income because minor leaguers don't get much pay. So whatever else she was or was not, she apparently was a loving parent.

  • In reply to Michael Caldwell:

    For someone who claims all of those rumors are not really true, you certainly are painting a clear picture with your descriptions of her and Ryno. And making a lot of assumptions about people. I have never brought up the Dave situation when discussing his candidate possibility or Sandberg deal. Problem is none of us should make assumptions and/or judge people.

    If cubs feel he is the right guy, then so be it. If he comes in is very successful people will forget the rumors. If he struggles, I fear that situation will be blown up. I just want the best for the cubs and to see October baseball!

  • fb_avatar

    I want Dave Martinez. I think he is by far the most interesting candidate. I like that he has worked so closely with Maddon. Also he should help develop young players especially the spanish speaking players with his spanish language skills. He also is a new school candidate which merges well with the FO. And if he has learned anything about working the media like Maddon he will be great. Maddon is a wizard with the media. I don't care about that personal stuff. Half the Cubs roster weren't born yet when that happened. I was 3. It just seems like old news. And if the Cubs win no one will care that's for sure.

  • I think Sandberg got the message that the Cubs don't want him around. So, since they had no problem delivering that message twice, they certainly wouldn't have any qualms about hiring Davey Martinez. Sandberg should do well with a veteran ball club in Philly and the Cubs should do well with a low-profile manager who isn't an icon from the past and a figurehead for the masses.

  • In reply to Cleme:

    maybe its time for me to change my username!

  • fb_avatar
    In reply to Cleme:

    I don't think it's fair to say "they don't want him around". I think they made it clear they didn't see him as their big league manager, and if that's what he wanted then he should pursue it somewhere else, but that's not to say he wouldn't have been welcomed in the Cubs' organization in some capacity.
    That being said, there should be no qualms about hiring Martinez based on what may have happened 25 years ago!

  • fb_avatar

    I think Martinez is my favorite of the current candidates. I'm no expert, but I like everything I've read about him as a managerial candidate. Theo & Co. have their rigorous interview process and I trust them to make the right call, but Martinez feels like the right guy, IMHO.
    I think it's laughable that his character is being called into question for something that may or may not have happened 25 years ago (when he was 24!)!
    Let's just assume for a minute that it did happen. Character is who you are TODAY, and that is determined by all the mistakes we make along the way. It is not what we did 25 years ago!
    I've said this before, but what if you went to a job interview and one of the questions was "were you ever sexually irresponsible in your early 20's?" Seriously?!
    Just like all the managers that haven't had good win/loss records the first time around, character is often built by "losing" a few times.

  • Didn't LaRussa have issues with fans with Ozzie Smith? They seem to move past that.

Leave a comment