Cubs Den Rumor Thread 7/17: Red Sox not so interested in Dempster after all? Braves want top of rotation guys

Cubs Den Rumor Thread 7/17: Red Sox not so interested in Dempster after all? Braves want top of rotation guys

So, I was a little under the weather late yesterday and had to take my feisty 12-year old Doberman to the vet when she hurt her back leg.  We're both fine, but now I have plenty of catching up to do.  I've got a pot of coffee brewing and my rally cap on.  Let's start off with a couple items to get the ball rolling...

  • 5:41 PM: Buster Olney tweets that some officials still regard the Dodgers as the front-runners for Ryan Dempster but that the Cubs are going through their process.  Olney also notes that some executives are wondering if Dempster what he would choose if given the option between an NL West team and an AL East team.  Well, the answer is the NL West, specifically the Dodgers, of course.  What's significant about that to me is that AL East execs (who I'm going to guess were the ones asking the question) feel they may need to beat the Dodgers bid by more than just a nominal margin.  If the offers are equal, the Cubs will almost certainly grant Dempster's wishes and trade him to LA.
  • 5:15 PM: Ken Rosenthal lists Ryan Dempster's preferences as: 1) Dodgers 2) Braves.  But he won't play hardball.  He'll consider a deal to any contender, including the Tigers, Red Sox, and Nationals. He only has a handful of teams that he would reject.
  • 4:38 PM: Jon Heyman tweets that the Cubs have begun naming their price for Ryan Dempster, but have not done so for other starters.  Presumably that means Matt Garza and maybe Paul Maholm.  This signals that the Cubs are done with the listening stage and are now ready to reach some sort of agreement.  I imagine there may still be some back and forth as far as price, but it seems that they've reached that next stage.  Now it's a matter of finding common ground.l
  • 3:11 PM: Jim Bowden tweets that the Indians are on the lookout for starting pitching and an outfield bat.  The Cubs can certainly help them out on both of those fronts.
  • 1:55 PM: The Nationals are also interested in Ryan Dempster, says Ken Rosenthal.  They're also looking at catcher.  The Cubs have two young MLB ready catchers behind Geovany Soto, but his value is at an all time low.
  • 1:50 PM: Bruce Levine speculates that the Rangers are also in on Matt Garza. (h/t Cliffy)
  • 1:32 PM: Danny Knobler adds a surprise new team to the Matt Garza sweepstakes -- the Kansas City Royals.  Knobler says the Royals have called about Garza.  Top prospect to begin the year Mike Montgomery has struggled while Bubba Starling and Wil Meyers are likely off limits.  The Royals still have some attractive pieces, however, led by Illinois H.S. product RHP Jake Odorizzi.
  • 1:29 PM:  Back from lunch and there are more rumors flowing.  Both Jayson Stark and Joel Sherman (one of the more reliable sources, imo), tweet that the Cubs are working hard to deal Ryan Dempster by "the end of the week".
  • 10:49 AM: Rosenthal (see link below) also adds on Ryan Dempster that, "The Dodgers, Tigers, Braves and Red Sox are in the mix. A friend of Dempster’s said the right-hander would probably approve a trade to Boston but considers the Dodgers a better fit.  Rival execs told Rosenthal that although they are thin at AAA, the Dodgers have enough prospects at the AA level to build a package for Dempster.  The Braves also are interested in Dempster, partly because the Cubs are willing to eat salary.  The Red Sox, on the other hand, are interested in Dempster, but may have greater interest in Matt Garza.
  • 10:14 AM:  Yesterday, Tom heard from a source that the Dodgers indeed have an offer on the table for Ryan Dempster (on Twitter) and today Ken Rosenthal confirmed that.  Dempster prefers LA if the Cubs can manage to get a deal they like, but he's open to going to any contender on any deal that helps the Cubs.  A deal could happen with the next day or two.
  • 9:21 AM: WEEI in Boston has a source that is denying that the team is aggressive pursuit of Ryan Dempster, saying instead that the team is in "wait and see" mode as they try to determine whether the performances of Aaron Cook and Franklin Morales are the real deal or if they're headed or some serious regression.  Sounds like a bit of posturing.  Time is running out though..
  • 9:15 PM: Jayson Stark tweets that the Braves are seeking just front of the rotation guys and one guy they've been linked to is Zach Greinke.  No word from Stark on Ryan Dempster or Matt Garza, though Dempster has pitched like a front of the rotation guy so far this season while Garza is capable of doing it, sometimes for long stretches as he did in the 2nd half last season.  Neither is considered a "#1 starter", but Garza ranks 26th in the MLB in xFIP and Dempster ranks 13th in FIP.

 

Filed under: Rumors/Speculation

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  • fb_avatar

    I trust those Boston sources about as much as I trust Phil Rogers and his absurdities!! Buster is usually right on his EastCoast rumors, especially the Yanks and BoSox...

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    In reply to Luigi Ziccarelli:

    Agreed! That's like the idea a few days ago that they were going to push Travis Shaw onto the Cubs as an answer at third base.

  • In reply to Luigi Ziccarelli:

    I like WEEI, but sometimes sources use their media outlets to get a message across. Since it came directly from Boston, I assume, there has to be some gamesmanship involved there.

  • Hope your leg's feeling better, John. Just kidding, hope both you and your dog are feeling better. I have to believe Dempster will be traded before his next start. His value can only go down with a bad start or an injury.

  • LOL...we're doing well. I was just fatigued, I think, after a couple of exhausting days. A good night's sleep did wonders! As for my Doby, she's as feisty as ever this morning. We both needed some rest :)

    I'd be more worried about an injury than a bad start, though I'm not really concerned with either. Teams know what Dempster is by now and it won't change with one start.

  • In reply to John Arguello:

    Is your Doby named Larry? He could "play" too.....

  • In reply to StillMissKennyHubbs:

    Ha! She's named Chloe, but when she was young, she had 80 speed on the 20-80 scouting scale.

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    John, how important do you think it is to the FO to get players who are close to major league ready in return for Dempster and Garza? If they're okay going into 2013 with a rotation of Samardziga, Wood and three fifth starters, I suppose it doesn't matter, but if they're putting a premium on major league readiness, that kind of narrows it down to a few select teams.

  • In reply to Michael Caldwell:

    I think they'd like to get at least one guy who's close to the majors since they don't really have any pitchers ready to take over in the rotation. Volstad is running out of chances, Wells has probably used his up, Rusin has struggled a bit. As I mentioned before, I'm not sure I wouldn't give Raley a shot right now, but he's a back of the rotation guy too.

    If push comes to shove, though, they'll take potential impact starters over MLB readiness.

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    In reply to John Arguello:

    I think they could end up getting both depending upon how things shake out.

  • Good morning John,
    I posted some scenarios on the other thread, but do you have any thoughts on the injuries to Votto, Bautista, and Big Papi, and how they may affect Reds', Jays', Red Sox', and Pirates' trades with the Cubs? Also, I think Santos is now done for the year for the Jays. Their pitching staff is hurting, and now their big bat may be out for a long time. Will the Jays pull back on contending this year? Thanks for any observations. Love this site.

  • In reply to StillMissKennyHubbs:

    Thanks for the kind words...and re-posting. Makes it easier for me to catch up! It really depends on the prognosis for Bautista. If he's indeed out for a long time, they may pack it in. If so, that would be a bummer since they really looked like they were going to go for it after so many rebuilding years. I'm a fan of Toronto, so I'd like to see them make a run at Boston and NY.

    The alternative, from a Cubs-centric viewpoint, is to pick up a Soriano or a LaHair to try and hold the fort until Bautista gets back, They could package either with a pitcher.

    It would be a disappointment for them if they did have to pack it in, but they may have no choice.

    As for Votto and Big Papi, I think that may make LaHair an option for both as well.

  • In reply to John Arguello:

    Thanks ! I like the Jays a little too, along with the Rays in the AL East, but 2012 may not be their year.
    I will be interesting to watch what the Pirates do, even if they don't deal with the Cubs. They can make a move to solidify their place at the top of the NL Central while the Reds' bats are hurt and the Cards are struggling with pitching (for which I shed NO tears). Maybe they loosen the leash on Cole and/ or Taillon?

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    In reply to John Arguello:

    The Reds still need another starter. Garza and LaHair to the Reds for a package centering around Cingrani and Stephenson?

  • In reply to John Arguello:

    the cubs want a ubaldo like package from toronto, which im sure toronto doesnt want to give up. a ubaldo package would look this like:

    rhp syndergaard
    lhp nicolino
    c jiminez
    rhp osuna

    (and that might be a bit more than the ubaldo deal)

    the jays currently lost their best hitter and a relief pitcher, so throwing in guys like lahair and camp could help them the rest of the way. neither guy makes more than 500k so they wouldnt be adding much in terms of payroll. also lahair could be something of a subersub for them playing four or five times a week at the corner of's, 1b or dh. he could also take over for davis in left full time, as his bat is surely an upgrade and the fact that hes left handed balances out their lineup a little more.

    i think if we add those guys the jays will throw in a guy like travis snider. theyve given up on him, but he may just need a change of scenery. if he doesnt pan out, at least hes a stop gap in the outfield so we dont have to call up someone from AAA who hasnt deserved it. plus if adding him + lahair and camp to the deal makes the jays complete the trade im all for it.

    i think this deal works out equally well for both teams, toronto gets some good cost controlled guys who will also help them in the near term. and the cubs get future pieces.

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    In reply to jshmoran:

    There is no way Toronto is going to mortgage that much of their future for guys like Camp and Lahair, especially when there are better alternatives available. After the losses in SP, Closer and Bautista, it looks to me like the Blue Jays are sellers rather than buyers as a number of reports have them trying to trade Yunel Escobar. I'm with John, I'd like to see Toronto in the mix, but the risk assessment of that team with all those injuries prohibits that, and AA is really not one to take on a lot of risk.

    The other thing I should note is that usually *adding* to the package doesn't increase the return. I know on the surface it seems that way. But throw ins tend to offer salary relief or even up a deal already existing. It's not like you can say hey, I'll give you these 5 pieces of excess baggage plus Dempster for your premium minor league pitchers plus Travis Snider.

    As good as Dempster has been, his numbers are unsustainable. Add going to the AL, and particularly the East Division, he equates to a #3 starter (in that division) on a 9-week rental. The number of teams in on Demp increases his value, but not to astronomical proportions.

    Garza is different because he nets a draft pick if he walks. I could see Toronto more interested in Garza for that reason, but they aren't going to give up 4 players and net one draft pick in return plus pay Garza $26 million over two years.

  • In reply to Jive Wired:

    i meant the deal to be for garza, idk how i forgot to mention his name. i think the cubs would also be willing to throw in some cash to make this deal go down. plus toronto is flush with pitching prospects, giving up syndergaard and nicolino still leaves them with sanchez, norris, maguire, cardona, Wojciechowski, stroman, smoral, dejong, gonzales.

    the blue jays top 5 prospects are regarded by most to be, d'arnaud, gose, sanchez, marisnick, syndergaard in that order. nicolino is a top 10, jiminez is a 8-13 range type of guy and osuna is a somewhere between 20-25. i think thats a pretty fair return for garza especially since they have those 9 guys that i just listed.

  • In reply to jshmoran:

    Another thing that makes it plausible they may give up a couple of those arms is that they are in low A ball. That's higher risk and the Cubs will want more than one pitcher because the odds that any one of them will pan out is lower than if they were in AAA, for example. If you're not going to get an upper level guy like Turner, Miller, etc., than you should look to get multiple lower level players.

  • In reply to John Arguello:

    And the Jays have depth in pitching and catching. I don't think it's completely unrealistic that they can get a couple of good pitching prospects plus a catching prospect.

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    In reply to jshmoran:

    Well - even for Garza......there are two schools of thought right? Inconsistency vs. poor run support. If you are trying to acquire Garza, you cite his inconsistency, and if you are selling Garza, you cite his poor run support. Taking wins out of the equation because they are not solely pitcher-dependent - you have on the surface basically an historically inconsistent pitcher.

    I guess my point is is this: The Cubs overpaid for Garza and probably won't get a similar return if they trade him. If I am Epstein, I really don't want to commit LT to Garza either, but you have to, this year, if you do not trade him, because his trade value falls significantly after this season.

    But other GMs know this as well and will leverage that. That leaves the one constant for any sellers market - supply vs. demand. Long term extensions for Hamels and Greinke would certainly vault Garza's trade value. Those guys on the trade market hurt his value. Same with Shields and Josh Johnson, at least in a win now mentality.

    And yes, I know Garza at least nets a draft pick if traded this year, but most GMs, I would think, would rather have those other pitchers, especially Hamels. If you are trading for Garza, you are trading for this year, Texas, Toronto and KC being the exceptions, and maybe Atlanta.

  • In reply to Jive Wired:

    seems fairly obvious that this is a prospective Garza trade scenario....Garza, not Dempster, is the one the Cubs are said to be looking for a Ubaldo haul for. Context, friends.

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    In reply to cubbie steve:

    My reply was meant for Cubbie Steve, not John or JSH Moran. Not sure what happened there.

  • In reply to Jive Wired:

    Well, I am Cubbie Steve, and I have no idea what you would be giving that response to. Nor why you, the person who admittedly didn't reply to the comment, would bother to call me a moron (moran).

    Take your juvenile name-calling somewhere else. There's no need for it here.

  • In reply to cubbie steve:

    before you think I'm being serious, it is a joke. as in, it happens. blog comments cause mistakes....

    as in JSH Moran and being called a moron ;)

    I know, I know....too complex of a joke.

  • In reply to cubbie steve:

    He wasn't calling you a moron. He was referring to username jshmoran.

  • In reply to StillMissKennyHubbs:

    Appreciate your moniker......as you can see, I miss him too!!

  • In reply to Hubbs16:

    He was my boyhood idol. I wore 16 when I played too. I remember all the hope around him for a light at the end of the Cubs tunnel when he broke the record for consecutive errorless chances--464 as I recall--and the ROY vote. I was crushed when his plane crashed.
    Then later that offseason, Jack Quinlan, the Cubs radio announcer who I listened to religiously, died in a car accident. 62-63 was a tough year on and off the field.
    Thanks for the thoughts. We lifelong Cubs fans are a family of choice.

  • In reply to StillMissKennyHubbs:

    I remember all too well. The last game I saw in person in '63 we were leaving in the top of the 9th with the Cubs well ahead. I looked back just as Ken made a backhanded stop and threw the runner out. That image remains in my mind. I mourned Jack Quinlan too as well as Willie Galimore and Bo Farrington of the Bears. A very sad time for Chicago fans.

  • I really hope it is just posturing by the Red Sox because I would hate to miss out on their fans posting message board trades where they get Dempster for a utility infielder and a AA bullpen catcher.

  • In reply to North Side Irish:

    Ha! I expect a little prospect downplaying to happen if a trade goes down.

  • In reply to John Arguello:

    And of course claiming they never wanted him if the trade doesn't happen because he couldn't pitch in the AL East anyway.

  • I don't believe anything that comes out of Boston, especially the talk shows there. At this time of year, you really have to take a trade speculation with a large grain of salt...a lot of BS going around.

  • In reply to Steve Flores:

    Oh yeah, especially when it comes to sources with something to lose (or gain).

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    I get the feeling that Dempster is willing to do whatever the Cubs want this trade season because he and Theo have a handshake agreement to play for the Cubs again in 2013.

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    In reply to Louie101:

    It's funny you should say that. Bob Nightengale tweeted yesterday that Dempster actually told him he still wanted to play for the Cubs in 2013, and he believes it could actually happen.

    I actually happen to be of the opinion that this FO would love to have Dempster back as long as it was at a reasonable price. This FO values intangible qualities as much as they do tangible qualities, and in terms of intagibles, Dempster is 80's across the scale. He is the perfect stable pony to have around a bunch of young thoroughbreds.

    I also think Dempster is the kind of person that this FO would still want around even after his playing days were done. I think he has a good baseball mind, and I think they see it.

  • In reply to Louie101:

    I'd be for that. Always good to have a Ryan Dempster on your team.

  • In reply to Louie101:

    Just think of it as a couple of months vacation...

  • With the agreement that Theo and Dempster seem to have it would aooear that the additional pieces in the trade take on added importance. LaHair's value may have moved up. Besides Dempster and LaHair to the Dodgers would itters be an additional pieced the Dodgers want?

  • In reply to pricewriter:

    They may be interested in Vitters, though I think Dodgers are focusing on players that can help them right now.

  • Sorry should be appear rather than aooer

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    Would Daniel Bard be a guy our FO would be interested in? he needs a change of scenery and consistent role. I could see us trying him in a starting role to see if he can be a top of the rotation guy, if not future closer candidate. I could see Boston parting with him for Dempster.

  • In reply to Marcel Jenkins:

    If they think he's a starter, then I'm sure they'd be very interested.

  • My brain hurts! Lol :<). John, considering all the chips the Cubs have to play, might be a fun thread to start for best case scenarios as far as the dominos falling the Cubs way. Taking into consideration filling our long/short term needs, teams involved play short term etc. For instance: If Demp is traded to an AL East team not named Toronto, might that not put pressure on AA to pull the trigger on Garza?

  • That's an interesting idea. It's such a complex, fluid situation that it's difficult to predict.

    As for a Dempster trade to the AL east spurring on the Jays, I'm not sure it would, actually. I think Toronto will acquire a pitcher that's more about next year than this year -- since their odds are shrinking with every injury for 2012.

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    Also Anthony Gose has been called out. Interested to finally see this kid play.

  • john great article do you think the red soxs are bluffing and do you think there could be a team like the angles for pohols that is a sleeper that could make a trade at any time from out of no where?

  • In reply to kingpro98:

    Thanks. I think they're probably more interested in Garza, but they'd take Dempster. They could just be trying to lower the price, but there's enough competition that I don't think that'll happen.

  • John retweeted this, but apparently Bruce Levine says the Rangers are "in strong" on Garza. If so, that's awesome. Hopefully the Cubs can keep the Blue Jays in the mix too. That's 2 of the top farm systems in baseball (if not the 2 best).

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    In reply to TulaneCubs:

    I love this. The Rangers are notorious for being "in" on players forcing the hand of other GMs, which only drives up the price. I only wish it was someone like John Heyman or Peter Gammons who said this instead of a home reporter. Levine seems like a 50/50 guy when it comes to rumors.http://www.chicagonow.com/cubs-den/2012/07/cubs-den-rumor-thread-717-red-sox-not-so-interested-in-dempster-after-all-braves-want-top-of-rotation-guys/#submit

  • In reply to Jive Wired:

    Agreed. Getting the Rangers involved, whether it's legit or just smoke, is a good thing.

  • I see Ken Rosenthal is saying the Nats are interested in Dempster, alonf with looking for another catcher (Soto?)
    http://tinyurl.com/84fncel

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    The more teams that are interested in Dempster, the better. I think it only enhances the package the Cubs will get for him. I don't mind the Cubs waiting till they feel that they will get the absolute most. I still feel the Cubs will strike gold with great prospects for the future.

  • In reply to Danny Guerra:

    All the interest is great for the Cubs. It's hard to imagine them not getting some pretty good prospects when this is all said and done.

  • In reply to John Arguello:

    If more pitchers hit the market that are FA after the season
    does Garza having a contract for 2013 and having drafts
    picks as comp enough to really get the Cubs what they
    want.

  • Dodgers choked another one away last night, not even in the playoffs if season ended today. Make em sweat boys, patience. Fans are getting restless, they have to make a jump start the team kind of move.
    And I find it funny that some would consider Greinke a better starter right now than Dempster. Do they watch any ball games?

  • Greinke might not be "a better starter right now than Dempster", but any team considering a trade for either of them would have to give up a lot more for Greinke.

  • So supposed interested teams (at some evel of interest) for Garza and/or Dempster include: Dodgers, Rangers, Braves, Cardinals, White Sox, Tigers, Bluejays, Pirates, Yankees, Red Sox, Nationals and Royals.....

    I haven't heard anything about the Angels....seems a bit odd.

    Still, that's almost half of baseball. Theo and Jed must be pretty busy working the phones.

  • http://www.mlive.com/tigers/index.ssf/2012/07/ryan_dempster_detroit_tigers_b.html

    At this point, who would the top three teams you would most covet in Dempster/Garza deals?

    Jays, Rangers, Nats?

  • In reply to Break The Curse:

    Jays, Rangers are out in front but not too big on the Nats since they gave up a big chunk of their farm for Gio Gonzalez. Cards might be 3rd in terms of who they can potentially give the Cubs -- but I don't think that's happening.

  • In reply to John Arguello:

    Royals would be really interesting too.

  • In reply to John Arguello:

    I meant to say Royals! Whatever the case is, minor league games are going to be where it's at for Cub's fans for the next year or so.

    Whatever the case, it looks like Theo's "steady stream of talent" is aoout to bust through the dam.

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    Wow - the Royals are looking at Garza. Now that is one team that might overpay. Wil Myers would look great on the Cubs. I think their minor league pitching is overrated, but I do like Odorizzi too. And they have a 3B prospect as well, but again, I think Cuthbert is more like a Wilson Betemit guy than a potential stud. Interesting to see they are kicking the tires.

    -- The Royals have inquired on pitchers they could acquire now and control through 2013, Danny Knobler of CBSSports.com reports. They’ve asked about Matt Garza of the Cubs, who earns $9.5MM this year and will remain under team control for the 2013 season.

    -- The Royals intend to add a significant free agent starting pitcher for 2013 this coming offseason, Knobler reported one week ago. Kansas City's rotation currently includes, Bruce Chen, Luke Hochevar, Luis Mendoza, Everett Teaford and the struggling Jonathan Sanchez.

    -- Though Royals closer Jonathan Broxton is drawing lots of trade interest, the Royals may still try to sign him for 2013 instead of making a trade, Knobler reports. Broxton earns a base salary of $4MM this year and is on track to hit free agency this coming offseason.

  • The Royals just DFAd Sanchez, the player they traded Cabrera for. Oops.

  • Sanchez had more problems, I believe, than his arm.
    BTW, don't expect Wil Myers to be part of a Royals deal -- unless it's an offer they absolutely can't refuse. He and Bubba Starling are the two stud bats/position players in their organization.
    They might move some of their young pitchers; speedster Jarrod Dyson, who is scary in the field and on the bases (and I don't mean scary good); Jeff Francoeur, who is having a so-so year at the plate but is a Gold Glove candidate in right and is only 28; or Brayan Pena or the other catcher in Omaha. Salvy Perez is a true once-in-a-decade find behind the plate, so one of the other catchers is expendable. Also, 2B Chris Getz or Johnny Giavotella might be attractive to the Tigers....then there's Yuni Betancourt, whom every Royals fan would love to see in a different uniform because he has no glove yet is in the lineup seemingly every day.

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    In reply to StillMissKennyHubbs:

    I'd never trade Myers if I was the Royals GM, but they do things in a different way than most clubs, like trading Melky Cabrera for Sanchez and extending Francouer. If any team can be forced to overpay, it is KC because they are impulsive buyers historically. I do not expect Myers to end up on the Cubs in a deal for Garza, though jaw-dropping trades followed by "What th'?" are the norm with KC - so one never knows, lol.

  • In reply to Jive Wired:

    Yes, they have had more than their share of ?? trades. But the Greinke deal looks better and better--Alcides Escobar could be an All-Star SS for years if his bat continues to improve; CF Lorenzo Cain is just back in the lineup since injury in April and they say he has the tools and speed; Odorizzi is a top arm prospect....then they go and re-sign Yuni Betancourt for infield backup and worse, Ned Yost pencils him in every day.
    They have built a fine farm system and are adding the results to the big team regularly. Now Dayton Moore has to take the next step, and David Glass has to spend some WalMart money for top pitching. The bullpen is full of power arms but they come in to the game in the sixth almost every night.
    They might move Broxton or keep him assuming they contend next year. Intriguing team to be in the mix now.

  • In reply to StillMissKennyHubbs:

    I'm not sure about the Royals as a trading partner. If pitching is what we need in this deal, there are some serious questions about their young guys. Odorizzi has struggled to go deep into games, and Montgomery has regressed big time. I think the Royals would have to give up a Starling or Myers to get that deal done.

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    In reply to StillMissKennyHubbs:

    I live in Milwaukee though I am from Chicago and lived there 40 years. Everyone up here called Yuni "Bob" last year because nobody could pronounce his name. They even sold "Bob Betancourt For Mayor" t-shirts LOL.

  • My hunch is that Dempster will only approve a trade to the Dodgers but as a favor to the Cubs he's letting them say he's open to all teams. This way, the Cubs can get better prospects from L.A.

    I'll miss that guy. He's truly a class act. Also, it's been nice having someone on the team who looks like Louis C.K.'s younger brother.

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    Matt Garza to Texas for Martin Perez, Mike Olt, Cody Buckel and Justin Grimm would be like my wildest wet dream come true.

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    In reply to Michael Caldwell:

    I'm sure Epstein would be arrested for grand theft if that happened, which it won't. I don't even think Texas would trade Olt straight up for Garza. Buckel and Grimm for Garza seems reasonable. But I think the Cubs can do far better than that package. I think Garza ends up in Boston, Dempster in L.A. or Washington. I think Barney goes to Detroit and in a shocker, I really believe someone is going to take Carlos Marmol off the Cubs hands.

  • In reply to Jive Wired:

    And apparently Soriano gets traded to the Cubs as long as they take on all of his salary.

  • In reply to Jive Wired:

    A finesse guy like Buckel as the headliner won't get it done. Good minor league pitcher and prospect, but upside is limited by fringe average velocity. Theo has always preferred power arms. Grimm fits that ideal better but some considerable risk there.

    The Rangers may or may not be willing to deal Olt or Perez, but if the don't, it will also mean they have little to no chance at getting Garza. If he's going to go after secondary prospects, he'd do the deal with the Red Sox where he knows the guys better.

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    In reply to John Arguello:

    I simply can't imagine a deal with the Red Sox for Garza that doesn't have Matt Barnes coming back to the Cubs, and I don't think the Red Sox will deal Barnes, not unless it's a sign and trade type of situation.

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    In reply to John Arguello:

    Totally agree. I am not a fan of Buckel, my comment was just based on those 4 players alone. Neil Ramirez is more of a type of player that Theo would target, in my best guess.

    I still think that the Cubs are looking more at guys who are at the development stage of Junior Baez rather than AAA prospects

  • In reply to Jive Wired:

    It wouldn't surprise me if they did. All things being equal, you take the guys that are further along, but if it comes down to lower ceiling upper level guy vs. higher ceiling lower level guys, you may be right and perhaps they choose the latter. Option C is that they ask for one from each category.

    Too bad that Ramirez stinks this year. That otherwise could have been a middle ground for them with Texas.

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    In reply to John Arguello:

    I agree. In a perfect world I think Epstein and his staff have a great handle on each team's entire systems, I mean, that is their forte. I know you talk to baseball people John and I certainly do not, but it just seems like the *plan* is going to take longer than they publicly state. And I imagine that they envisioned that from day one, so to me, lower level prospects would fit more accordingly and offer higher ceilings. But of course I am just guessing. What I wouldn't give to be able to talk to the people that you guys do!

  • In reply to Jive Wired:

    They have a great amount of info on all organizations, but you're always going to know the most about your own guys. In the Cubs FO's case, that includes the Red Sox system right now.

    Talking to baseball people is nice and something I'm thankful that I'm able to do on occasion. I've learned a lot about the game because of that. One guy told me he's been doing his job for 15 years and he's still learning,...that's what's so great about baseball to me, you can't ever be satisfied with the amount of knowledge you have. There's always something more to learn.

  • In reply to John Arguello:

    John ... Don't forget to add Sandy Eggo to the mix!

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    In reply to Jive Wired:

    I said it was a wet dream scenario. I didn't say it was a realistic on, but that said. Texas isn't getting Garza without giving up either Perez or Olt, and if they don't want to pay the price, this FO will likely tell them to go pound sand.

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    In reply to Michael Caldwell:

    I get that it is a *wet dream* scenario but the thing is I was hoping that a rumor thread would actually contain verifiable, industry-based rumors and not one-sided fantasy baseball wishes. I mean it's a rumor thread right? Not a wish list. Not trying to be a jerk but why not post things that are at least sensible so that there is some good conversation and follow-up commentary? Hell, in my wet dreams the Rangers would give the Cubs Yu Darvish, Josh Hamilton, Nelson Cruz and Ian Kinsler for Garza.

    And look, Garza is not worth Olt and Perez. Those are Texas #1 and #2 guys according to most minor league analysts. Garza would be the #4 starter on that team.

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    In reply to Jive Wired:

    #4 starter with #2 stuff. You pay for the stuff, not what you plan on using it for.

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    In reply to Michael Caldwell:

    Actually, no you do not. Because if I am shopping for a #4 starter, I would expect to pay market value for a #4 starter regardless of the *stuff* or I'd go get a #4 with #4 starter *stuff*.

  • In reply to Jive Wired:

    You wouldn't want to match up a guy with #2 stuff against another team's #4 guy every 5 days?

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    In reply to John Arguello:

    I'm not saying that. Of course who wouldn't want that? All I am saying is that the Rangers do not have a need that would make them overpay for a guy with #2 stuff. They could just get Dempster for a lot less and put him in at #4. That would make a whole lot of sense on my end were I the Rangers GM. It's all about market value. Garza is not as worth as much to the Rangers as he would be to a team who needs a legit #2 guy.

  • In reply to Michael Caldwell:

    agreed. If a team had two aces, just because the second ace was #2 in the rotation, doesn't mean you can get him for a #3 haul if you, the aquiring team, already have two aces....

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    In reply to cubbie steve:

    Garza is not an ace.

  • In reply to Jive Wired:

    Show me where I said Garza was an ace. I'll be waiting.

    It's called an example. An example, defined, is

    "a thing characteristic of its kind or illustrating a general rule"

  • In reply to Jive Wired:

    Jurickson Profar says HI! He is the Rangers top prospect by most, if not all analysts.

  • In reply to Jive Wired:

    Have to VERY strongly disagree Garza isnt worth Olt and Perez. Perez hasnt lived up to anything yet and Olt is a position player . Garza is a top 25-40 starting pitcher in all of baseball , Young , under control and with great stuff. I am very glad it is Theo assigning Garza His value and not You. Respectful to Your opinion of course .

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    In reply to Bryan Craven:

    Regardless of what you think the market isn't there. Not to mention, Nolan Ryan has said they are not trading either of those guys. So if they are not available what is the point?

    Just like everyone thinking the Tigers will part with Castellanos and Turner for Garza. If either of those deals were there they'd have been done immediately, no questions asked.

    Look I am a Cubs fan but I certainly don't see why everyone thinks Garza is all that. He projects to a 3.76 ERA the rest of the way with a 5-5 record pitching in the NL Central. That is hardly ace material.

    And for the record, I would LOVE it if any of those deals happened with Toronto, Texas or Detroit.

    And Theo is not assigning any value to Garza. A market consists of two components, a bid and an offer. If I have a 1978 AMC Gremlin that is all rusted out I may feel it is worth $10,000 but I guarantee the offer is going to be far less. The offer represents the value of the buying team, so regardless of what Theo thinks Garza's value is doesn't mean he will get that return. Being the holder of that option, he can walk away with nothing and keep Garza if he doesn't like.

    By the way, I forgot about Profar. My bad.

  • In reply to Jive Wired:

    Garza is a 2 and on some teams a solid 3 , I never said anything about Him being an Ace, There are less than 10 true Aces in Baseball period. He is in any equation worth 2 A prospects period, no matter . He is what I said He is ,a top 25-40 pitcher in baseball. How can You assign his value by ERA and W-L when He is being supported by a very offensively challenged club . If He got Texas Ranger run support I am willing to bet His W-L record would be better . Theo doesnt have to trade Him, Olt and Perez to me are market value. To You He is worth a few B prospects and a bag of balls. Fair enough .

  • How important is managing the 40-man roster. After this season
    they some FA and some players that will taken of the roster. So
    is it better, all things being equal, to after top prospect that don't
    have to go on the 40-man for at least 1 or 2 more years.

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    I'm not sure how much wiggle room there is on the current 40, but I'd think if the Cubs take someone who has to be on the 40, they're thinking that player or players will be in Wrigley soon. I can't imagine them taking a prospect who has to be protected, but is projected to have no chance at the majors in the next two seasons. Of course it all comes down to talent I suppose. If they get offered the right player, they'll make it work. Might be a PTBNL who will show up after other moves for more marginal bench players happen in the next few weeks.

  • In reply to Kevin Heckman:

    I think you hit the nail on the head. They have their ideal preference regarding roster logistics, but talent trumps all.

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    It's just a gut feeling, but I expect a deal for Dempster to actually be announced during the game, whether it's tonight, tomorrow or Thurday. I think they'll do that so Dempster can come out of the dugout, take his cap off and get a well deserved standing ovation. Anyways, I hope it happens that way.

  • In reply to Michael Caldwell:

    It'll be tough to top that Kerry Wood goodbye!

  • In reply to Michael Caldwell:

    Ha yeah. Maybe they let him pitch Wednesday. Break Holtzman's record. Then send him away with a standing ovation from the fans..

  • In reply to furiousjeff:

    Oh wait lol nvm he's not scheduled to pitch till Friday..

  • During the last 2 weeks with so many players injuried, pitchers and
    hitters, I hope we can us this to our advantage. Have to move as
    possible. Others teams also have players to offer.

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    Dempster to Atlanta brings up some interesting possibilities. Sean Gilmartin anyone?

  • In reply to Michael Caldwell:

    Gilmartin sounds interesting.

  • I got you Jive Wired...that makes sense.

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    Too bad there is so much information readily available on even the lowest life forms in the furthest depths of every organization. Makes it hard to pull off a Derek Lee/Hee Sop Choi or Aramis Ramirez for a can of medicated fungal foot spray type highway robbery deal anymore. Hee Sop Choi - now that's a name you don't hear very often anymore.

  • In reply to Jive Wired:

    Choi was well regarded and I think the sabermetric community would have liked his walk rate and power numbers. The Ramirez deal was a steal, even at the time. Bobby Hill had some talent, but a total head case.

  • Guys, please help. I was catching up on the game--ouch--and saw that Barney was lifted. There was also an injury delay that inning (4th?). So did Barney get hurt?
    Thanks for any info.

  • In reply to StillMissKennyHubbs:

    Just a double switch as pitcher was due up. He's okay.

  • In reply to John Arguello:

    Thank you ! Some people thought a trade was imminent because of his being pulled.

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    And off topic, and then I am going to bed. But sheesh, a man as wealthy, powerful and good looking as Theo Epstein surely deserves a far better looking stalker, don't you think?

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    In reply to Jive Wired:

    Man, you ain't a kidding. That woman fell out the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down.

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    One last last last thing - John I am in the market for a Bose speaker system and I see the ads on your blog. If you get a commission I will gladly click through your ad before buying. Let me know. Maybe you'll make enough for a few pops at the local bar or something.

  • In reply to Jive Wired:

    We do get a commission. Click away...and I'll buy the beer!

  • Please, anyone who's up. Did Barney get hurt?
    Or was he pulled for some other reason ?

  • In reply to StillMissKennyHubbs:

    Maybe Barney got traded?

  • In reply to StillMissKennyHubbs:

    He just got double-switched out of the game.

  • Are you just speculating, or did you hear something?

  • In reply to StillMissKennyHubbs:

    All I know, is if a player gets traded during a game, his team will pull him so he doesn't get hurt.

    Just a guess.

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    One of my buddies is a worker at wrigley.. He said he talked to Jed today asked up vitters an Jax.. Don't expect a call up untill September.. For both.. And rumor was Barney and Garza got traded to Det for Castellanos and Turner... Don't know what truth to it...

  • In reply to Colman Conneely:

    That's pretty much what we've been saying here as far as Jackson and Vitters.

    Would like for that rumor to be true with Detroit, but Barney was just pulled because of a routine double switch. I don't think the Cubs are talking seriously about Garza yet. They're focused on dealing Dempster, it seems.

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    If even happening or goin to happen in near future

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    ^ Im guessing there's more goin to Det just than Garza and Barney

  • ESPN Chicago quote:

    "Reports have also suggested the Cubs could trade both Dempster and Matt Garza to the Dodgers, which could to be enough to land Lee and more."

    I'm pretty ignorant on this, but do the Dodgers REALLY have enough to trade for BOTH GARZA AND DEMPSTER?!?

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    In reply to cubbie steve:

    I don't think so, unless a 3rd team is involved....They'd probably have to give up 2/3 of their top 10 prospects for those 2 and would that still be enough?

  • In reply to cubbie steve:

    No, I agree with you. That sounds bogus. They barely have enough to get Dempster.

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