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Derrick Rose practices full, but conditioning still an issue

Derrick Rose practices full, but conditioning still an issue

Tom Thibodeau noted that Derrick Rose's conditioning is still a work in progress, but he's doing everything in practice. While it's likely ultimately irrelevant, I wonder how does one get out of shape so fast?

Tribune report:

Thibodeau said Rose has been "doing everything in practice," but his conditioning, while improving, is "a work in progress."

Less than six weeks to go from NBA conditioning to huffing and puffing through practice.

#Bulls Derrick Rose clearly winded when practice ended. Thibs "he hasn't had any setbacks" @cbschicago

#Bulls Derrick Rose huffing & puffing after practice. Thibs says he's still working on his conditioning @cbschicago

Maybe the bar for NBA conditioning is just that high, but I don't see how you have surgery six weeks ago, return to cardio work likely 3 weeks ago and still have a conditioning issue today.

It's not like he was out for three months. He should have been in NBA shape then taken a three week break followed by working cardio back in for three weeks.

It's ultimately irrelevant. He's at wherever he's at, and hopefully he'll play soon (Thibodeau was predictably noncommittal about the Wednesday/Thursday games this week), but it just feels like something is flawed with this guys body that he falls out of shape so quickly.

Hopefully the lack of conditioning is based on Thibodeau cranking up practice intensity more so than anything else. The Bulls, like so often, are caught in the catch 22 with Derrick.

They need him on the court to get back into game shape and get his timing, but they also don't want to risk aggravating his knee or screwing up his return all together.

Rose has historically returned very slowly from injuries in terms of the time he sits out and that trend has continued with this surgery. Beyond that, he's also historically played very badly for an extended period after returning.

Chicago will need to hope against hope that he can break that trend this time around. His odds seem better given that he wasn't out as long as the last few times he returned from an injury, but Chicago has relatively few games left in the season for Derrick to find his stride.

If Chicago can maintain a hold on the three seed and Milwaukee can find a way to hang on to six then Chicago will get a nice cushy first round matchup to give Rose a chance to work his way back in the playoffs as well.

It's probably unrealistic to think Derrick can get to his peak, but if he can get out there for seven to eight games before playing Cleveland he might get close enough.

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  • To be fair it's not that hard to get out of shape in a matter of weeks. I'm sure he wasn't doing much training other than physical therapy and maybe weight lifting with his arms after his surgery. Even though minor he still had surgery on his knee and it takes a while for the wound to heal. When your an athlete you really can't afford to miss too much time because even a few days off could be more than enough to take you out of a rhythm.

    I know it's difficult but people just have to be patient with Rose. At least he's trying to get back out there, he could have just as easily sat out for the remainder of the season and the playoffs. By him coming back at least we can still hope for success in the playoffs.

  • In reply to ajaychitown:

    Also, Rose's recovery time was 4-6 weeks for his injury, other NBA players typically would come back in 3-4 weeks from this injury. We've seen guys like Artest come back in like 2 weeks from this injury.

    Yeah, he could have sat out, but even the long timetable was within this season. It's not really reasonable to expect him to sit out.

    Whether it is physical, mental, or emotional, Derrick Rose, as far as I can tell, is the slowest healer in the NBA. He consistently takes longer than standard recovery time tables for non athletes and then also doesn't look really ready when he's back.

  • In reply to DougThonus:

    No team's title hopes were ever resting on Artest's shoulders. It's an unfair comparison as Artest, and his respective team, had a lot less to lose with a potential "setback" from Ron pushing too hard too soon.

    Rose's health is not only critical for success this season, but he also has 2 more years at around $40 million left on his contract. I would say some level of caution is very reasonable, from both the player and FO.

  • In reply to BullsMan:

    We keep using the same phrasing with Rose, "that caution makes sense because of the amount of money still to be paid to the guy" or something to that effect, but it's important to distinguish between types of surgeries. This surgery, provided it was done correctly, should make his knee feel better instantly, because it clipped out the piece(s) that was (were) causing swelling, inflammation, etc. He has to recover from any trauma related to the surgery itself, which these days is pretty minimal because of the procedures employed. Then the rehab strengthens the muscles around the knee because they will have atrophied a bit during whatever layoff he had. But this is really straightforward stuff. I don't think there is any increased risk of injury, other than that of a compensating type. Maybe that risk is high with Rose because he has become so gun shy about his health, but that would be the case whenever he comes back, imo.

    Doug is right. Rose is an incredibly slow healer. Such is life.

    In the big picture the championship window for this team is this year and next. I would hate the Bulls to lose a shot at this year's playoff because Rose can't/won't be back as an impactful player this year. That would reduce by 50% the kicks at the can that this group will have. The future is now.

    As for Rose, post this contract, I foresee a potential nightmare. If his health is a train wreck over the next two years then I guess the Bulls can just let him walk at the end of his current deal. But if he stays somewhat healthy, Rose will want another max deal because of his "superstar" status, whereas he probably wouldn't be worth one. That would be a rough situation for Bulls management to navigate.

  • In reply to bjb57:

    My understanding is that the original meniscus repair still carries significant risk of re-injury. While this second procedure has cleaned up some minor damage, there is still a large portion of the original repair that is subject to re-injury. I would assume then the preference would be for the the second repair to be 100% healed, before subjecting the original repair to an increased risk of injury.

    I'm no doctor, so if anyone has a different understanding of Rose's condition, please share.

  • In reply to BullsMan:

    The knee operations were different. Much of the meniscus does not receive a blood supply, so if the damage is in the area without a supply the only thing that can be done is to cut it out, or keep dealing with the pain, swelling and inflammation of a loose, jagged piece of meniscus floating around. However, if the damaged area does receive a blood supply then the meniscus can be repaired. Rose's first meniscus tear was of the type that allowed a full repair, which is what he and the Bulls chose to do. It involves the longer healing process that we saw with his first surgery. This second injury was not to a blood-bearing region of the meniscus, so there is really no choice there. You cut it out and go through the 4-6 week recovery process. There is no healing process involved here. It is a recovery and rehab process. That part of the meniscus is gone forever. I don't think the fact that he has lost part of his meniscus now makes him more or less likely to damage the remainder of it from here on out, but I very well may be wrong about that. Given that it is 16-17 months after the first tear and repair, it is not clear to me how a few more months should make any difference to his long-term prospects of keeping the rest of his meniscus intact.

    That is the extent of my knowledge on this subject, based on the first-hand experience of a 50-something recreational tennis player, not an elite NBA athlete.

  • In reply to bjb57:

    I agree, contract negotiations with Rose is a disaster waiting to happen. For him to even have any reasonable ground for another max he would have to win a championship and have at least one MVP level season out of his remaining 2 years. Otherwise his injury history is too much for any franchise to stomach. You have to think if Rose never had all these injuries I believe the FO and Thibs would have a better relationship. But that's the business of basketball; people love you when your winning but when the grass isn't so green those same people hate your guts.

  • In reply to DougThonus:

    Are you a doctor or an active NBA player coming off three knee surgeries? Oh, neither? Right, you're a blogger who sits behind a keyboard. For someone who watches so much basketball, you sound incredibly uniformed.

  • In reply to tylercc1989:

    No one makes you read Doug's blog. You're welcome to limit yourself to content written by doctors and active NBA players.

  • fb_avatar
    In reply to tylercc1989:

    Doug wears a uniform? You say he is uniformed. Did you mean uninformed? I love a man in uniform!

  • fb_avatar
    In reply to Ineeda Mann:

    Lol. Do you make $89 hr working from home ?

  • fb_avatar
    In reply to Jim Odirakallumkal:

    LOL. No, I leave that to my friends, who make more than that by visiting www.easymoneyforchumps.com.

  • You can certainly lose your wind in three weeks, but you should also pretty easily get it back within three weeks, because you aren't really deconditioned, your body typically only needs 2-3 good workouts to then get right back where it was.

  • In reply to DougThonus:

    I think it's hard for us to compare us "getting back into shape" and what it means for an NBA player. I don't think it's a big deal for Rose though. I'm more concerned about the mental aspect of his game that seems to make him passive/settle for 3 pointers, etc.

  • In reply to bpmueller:

    I agree with you on that!

    Rose needs to have both his head and body game ready. The first playoff series will not be so critical, but the second round will be either the Cavs of Hawks and Rose will need his "A" game for the Bulls even to have a puncher's chance.

  • His return is likely known from the FO and his camp, but they don't want to announce as they want to stay cautiously optimistic IMO. It makes logical sense if Rose is back at the tail-end of this week's back-to-back. So, I have a gut feeling he is playing the Miami game this Thursday and latest this Saturday against the 76ers. This will give Rose about 7/8 games to get back in shape and prep for the showdown with the likely Cavs on the second round. I think this is a good plan given the circumstances. I also agree with the fact that Rose is not going anywhere next year and the rationale for being conservative with Rose. I believe this team with Rose and perhaps a trade of Taj to get a starting caliber SF can keep this team contending next season as well. I am sure the FO is considering these factors as well.

  • Isn't Thibs known for pushing extra hard in practices? I know there have been grumblings from players before about this.

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    Good piece Doug.
    Conditioning is not an injury, and if he's not injured he should play. Enough with the cover-ups. Every game Derrick misses now should be docked from his $20 million dollar paycheck. I've never heard of any professional athlete not playing due to him being winded in practice.
    This storyline on when Derrick Rose will return has grown old and stale. It's become an annual topic of discussion for Bulls Nation over the play of the team themselves.
    I'm so tired of hearing Thibs answer reporters questions on Derrick's progress. I'm at the point of giving up on his ability to contribute at all for this team. Any Superstar who wants to get back on the court will speak up and end up back on the court, but Derrick seems to be nursing this like a city worker who uses up all of his sick leave for having a common cold. It's as if the Doctor's gave Derrick a 4 to 6 week timetable and Derrick has decided to take every bit of that 6 weeks before he returns back to game action again.
    He's lost that mental edge he once had, and when he does play again I expect it to show by him trying to do too much while having little results.
    It's best for the Bulls to ride or die with Aaron Brooks as the starting PG. Have Derrick come in and play in spurts, and if he shows signs of fatigue, or aggravation to his knees, sit him for awhile. All we can hope for him now is for him to show some interest in wanting to play basketball beyond simply saying so in front of the media.
    Paul George sat out for the whole 8 mts of the season from a leg injury and he came back to play non conditioned an all. That's how a professional does it. Derrick remains popular from his 2012 MVP award, but it's 2015 and it's time for him to put up, get traded, or ride the bench, but I don't think Bulls management would want to pay the guy another $20 million dollars next season and he's not able to last for 82 games.

  • In reply to Michael Cunningham:

    Michael, this may give you an idea as to the Rose/Brooks debate as to minutes. In researching this I think I learned somewhat of an insight as to the Bulls uneven play this year.

    1. According to 82games.com the worst production by position this year for the Bulls has been at the point guard position. The point guards on the Bulls rate at a -0.6 PER (the best position is at center at +2.3).

    2. Per ESPN, the three worst Defensive Real Plus/Minus (DRPM) players on the Bulls belong to Aaron Brooks, Derrick Rose, and Kirk Hinrich. That's right, all three are point guards. Brooks is the worst defensively by far, but the real story is that Hinrich has the worst total Real Plus/Minus by far because he gives you nothing on offense. (Disclosure- McDermott actually has the worst DRPM on the team but I am excluding him because of the small number of minutes played.)

    3. This is just a snapshot obviously. But it seems to indicate the Major Bulls' problem as far as production (or lack thereof) can be found at the point guard position.

    4. Another problem is the significant decrease in production from Noah and Gibson from last year. This is on both the offensive and defensive end. Noah' RPM has gone from 4.57 to 1.94. Gibson's RPM has gone from 4.20 to -0.21. These are huge turnarounds.

  • In reply to hgarbell:

    To clarify #1 above. That is the differential in PER between the player(s) on the Bulls and the opposing player(s) at that position.

  • In reply to Michael Cunningham:

    Comparing Rose to a city employee, harsh but funny, also likely somewhat true.

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