Noah, Boozer, Kirk? Lots of talks according to Chad Ford

Noah, Boozer, Kirk?  Lots of talks according to Chad Ford

The trade of Luol Deng could mean several things for Chicago. One of them might be that the Bulls are looking to blow up the entire cast after this thing didn't work this season. According to Chad ford, the Bulls basically have everyone on the table.

Jerry (Chicago)

Are the bulls done trading? That about Kirk or Noah?
Chad Ford (1:26 PM)

Don't think so. Lots of talk about those two as well as Boozer. I've said this in several of our last Tank Ranks, management has made the decision to tank this season. Coach isn't on board, but they can keep taking cards out of his hand to play.

Let's break it down a player a time...

Joakim Noah's not going anywhere

Management, reportedly, wouldn't give up Noah in a trade for LaMarcus Aldridge this summer. After the Blazers hot start, there's virtually no chance that deal's on the table now, nor is there any chance the Bulls will get even close to that value anywhere else. Out of their own pride, it's hard to see them dealing Noah simply because he's likely worth more to the Bulls than anything they can get for him.

Even if the Bulls were willing to completely scrap things and start over, it's tough to find quality centers, and the Bulls have nothing in the wings in terms of centers to bring in for him. There are several quality center prospects in this draft, and that would be the Bulls best bet, but the odds any of those guys end up as good a player as Joakim are iffy, and it certainly doesn't leave them in good position.

I don't think the Bulls are married to Joakim. He's one of my all time favorite Bulls, but I'm not married to him either. I think he's got limited shelf life left with the way his plantar fasciitis kicks up every season and plays largely on hustle which will dissipate as he ages. He's a good player, but it was clearly a mistake to not move him for Aldridge (unless there were ridiculous amounts of the pieces required as well).

In the end, I don't see the Bulls getting the kind of return on Noah in trade to make a deal worthwhile.

Carlos Boozer's not going anywhere

The Bulls would dump Boozer for an expiring. Any expiring. However, after that? What's the upside to moving Carlos Boozer? No one's giving you an asset back for him, and I doubt the Bulls can find someone to take him as an expiring.

If they can't move him for an expiring then they've lost a bunch of flexibility next season, so there's just no gain. I'm sure management is aggressively shopping him, but I just don't see a team giving the Bulls something that's worthwhile for them. There are a couple teams that might be desperate enough (Nets/Knicks) but they don't have the right contracts to send back.

The Suns have Okafor's contract they could send for him, but it's unlikely they'd want to screw with next year's cap space by clogging it up with Carlos Boozer even if they felt he could help this seasons.

In short, you'd need to find a team looking to win now, that could use a PF, that has a large expiring deal (but smaller than Boozer's because the Bulls are right on the tax threshold) that doesn't mind keeping him for one extra year and is willing to complete swing for the fences.

Good luck.

Kirk Hinrich should be easy to move

Golden State can accept him inside a trade exception and send nothing back to Chicago. They also have interest. They would likely send guard Toney Douglas back to Chicago in order to avoid the luxury tax. The move would save the Bulls a bit of money, but not a significant amount and serves no purpose other than doing a solid for Kirk if he'd prefer to go to Golden State because they're winning and possibly help the Bulls lose more games.

Maybe GS can be convinced to give up something, but what? Their second rounders are too late to mean anything, their first rounders are too valuable for Kirk Hinrich. It's just hard to see what the Bulls could get in a swap that would incentivize them enough to pull the trigger after they got under the luxury tax with the Deng move.

Maybe tanking is enough to do so, but quite honestly, I think moving D.J. Augustin would help a lot more with the tanking effort than Kirk Hinrich.

So are the Bulls tanking?

Chad Ford notes the Bulls are committed to improving draft position. I don't know if that's the case or not. Maybe they caught lightening in a bottle with the D.J. Augustin signing unintentionally, but Marquis Teague was a tank machine, and they sent him away to be replaced by someone else.

If they were looking to lose that move simply doesn't happen. The coach and players are still focused on making the playoffs, and management's best shot to actually lose games is to bring Marquis Teague back and make sure he gets huge burn every night. So far they've done the opposite of that.

A Kirk trade with a Teague call up would probably signal the white flag for the Bulls season in terms of making the playoffs especially if the Bulls don't receive anything else of value for Kirk. We'll see if that hapepns.

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  • I don't think the bulls should dump noah. They can tank plenty with him still in the lineup cause: his super role player skills dont work when his teammates suck (kinda like deng) and also if the bulls keep sucking he'll get depressed and give up. Then when the bulls are good again he'll start trying and be better than most guys you can get for him. I know he's gettin old but maybe you can still get some good years out of him if thibodeau aviids runing him into the ground for a little while.

  • And yes noah is an energy player, but he is not a super athletic player. His beSt assett is probably his IQ, so he might not age all that badly

  • How about Boozer for Ben Gordon! The Bulls-centric interwebs might explode and it would be kind of fun to watch BG dig a 40 point hole and score 35 trying to climb back out every game.

  • In reply to bullshooter:

    I think Boozer for Gordon is a fantastic deal that makes a ton of sense for both teams. Bobcats could use another big in their drive to make the playoffs. Gordon is an expiring contract who would help the tankathon.

    The only question is whether the Bobcats want to hamper their team with a salary like Boozer for another year. Gordon's expiring gives them flexibility for the future but it really depends on how motivated they are in contending this year.

  • In reply to bullshooter:

    Uh, the Bobcats had to be bribed by Detroit with a first round pick to take Gordon and an additional contract year, so now with Gordon expiring they are going to cash that in for another year of boozer, can't see how that makes sense, even for MJ. Plus, after getting burned on the TT trade, MJ is probably wary of making another deal with the bulls. Obviously, the Bulls aren't bribing them to take boozer with a first round pick.

  • Forget about doing a solid for Klank, how about doing a solid for Bulls fans by getting rid of his Jayhawk ass. Bringing back Hinrich for $4M just showcased for me the lack of vision of this front office. And people wonder why the Bulls are at, or near, the bottom of the league in scoring.

    I have a pantheon of Bulls players who have made me ill just watching them. For example, Eddie Robinson and Ben Wallace. Hinrich is getting close to reaching this elite status.

  • In reply to hgarbell:

    Hinrich Bull's position looks different with Rose in core and without him.

  • In reply to jaet:

    Some people are just too (choose a word) to realize that Hinrich is still a pretty good back-up combo guard. He's no starter, but he's not paid to be a starter.

  • In reply to Don Ellis:

    Some people are too (choose a word) to realize that Hinrich is an abortion for $4M a year. Klank has a PER of 9.60 and a NEGATIVE value added of 11.6. C.J. Watson, who the Bulls would have nothing to do with for half the price has a PER of 12.01 and a positive VA of 9.9. Not that I necessarily want Watson on my team, but anyone who thinks Hinrich is "pretty good" is a (choose a word).

  • In reply to hgarbell:

    Amen, once Hinrich makes a positive play he ramps it up until he gives twice back a negative. It's like a form of OCD.

  • In reply to hgarbell:

    C.J Watson disappears under pressure. Remember playoffs against the 76ers? Remember last year on Brooklyn Nets? I would take Kirk over C.J. with no hesitation as a backup guard.

  • In reply to hgarbell:

    How about GS sending us Kent Bazemore for Hinrich. I remember liking him against the Bulls last season, good size and athlete.

  • In reply to hgarbell:

    I'm sorry, but as limited as Hinrich is, he is nowhere near the big bum status of Wallace or Robinson. He just doesn't have elite talent, which can make him painful to watch at times. You can dislike Hinrich as a player if you want to, but you really cannot disrespect him as a competitor.

  • I'm thinking this apparent interest in Mike Dunleavy is in the same realm of Hinrich to GS (per Doug's article meaning not adding much value) but if entertained by the Bulls, what's the most do you all think they can get from the Rockets?

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/rockets/2014/01/08/nba-houston-rockets-omer-asik-mike-dunleavy/4381387/

  • I think the Bulls need to entertain everything at this point.

    Noah's deal pays him $13 and $14 million the next two years, which I think is high. I think he's worth $10, which is what his current deal started off at in year 1 and it's slowly escalated.

    Latest rumors are Hinrich to Golden State and Dunleavy to Houston. Hinrich won't return much. Probably just a salary dump and Golden State will return someone for part of the salary, so it's only a slight dump. Maybe Bulls can get another 2nd?

    I would try to get a 1st from Houston - even if it's protected and/or a future 1st. Dunleavy is a nice player and he's on a phenomenal deal at $3 million for this year and next. I hate to trade him since he took less to come to the Bulls and he's around next year still. He's a high-end NBA shooter and plays decent D with good size. So, you don't want to give him away, that's for sure.

    Still, you try to stay under the tax and get as many picks as you can and tank as best you can. That should be he clear goal.

  • In reply to Granby:

    If Thibs and Gar/Pax like Dunleavy, you keep him around. He's cheap and provides what the Bulls need (shooting) and he may resign at a hometown discount if the Bulls still want him after next year. It's clear that he comes from money and getting every last dollar does not drive his decisions. So, you keep him unless Houston or anyone knocks you off your feet.

    He's aging, but he could be a nice bench shooter on the cheap for many years.

  • Agree. Houston should be a title contender for at least the next five years with a core of Harden, Dwight, Parsons and Jones. Getting a late first rounder is not nearly as valuable to them as an experienced scorer off the bench. If the Rockets don't cough up at least a first rounder for this year, or next, I would much rather keep Dunleavy at $3M per year.

  • In reply to hgarbell:

    I think the FO has targeted Carmelo Anthony or even L. James and they are making sure that they have cap space to make financial considerations for either of them--but, even he would need a good center like Noah and other players like Butler, Rose, and an experienced Snell, and Murphy (the 3 pt specialist to replace Dunleavy at better price) as a basic working team foundation. So by moving Hinrich and Dunleavy for draft picks or minimum waged players is an obvious and necessary move. After signing Anthony they could even bring back Hinrich and even Deng to move forward to a championship team.

  • are the bulls going for a semi-rebuild(getting rid of boozer and deng-30 million off the salary cap) or are they going the full monty with a complete rebuild through the draft. I would like to think they are targeting Carmelo but I doubt it. With Rose in his prime, you would believe that a semi-rebuild with perhaps getting an elite scorer like Carmelo is the best path.

  • You don't move Noah as a pure tank move, you only move him for value, and as Doug said with no center on our roster that value doesn't seem to be out there. I for one doubt that Portland was ever willing to do the Aldridge for Noah deal, at least straight up.

    As for the rest of the guys, the obvious tank moves are Hinrich and Dunleavy. Hinrich is gone next season, so why bother keeping him, when Teague is the vastly superior tank commander. Who ever thought that Teague and vastly superior could ever appear in the same sentence. Dunleavy is a bit of a different story as he could be useful next season on a contending team and is a value contract. If you could get another first for him, it might be worth a dump anyway.

    You pretty much have to keep Butler and even Gibson, otherwise you have no bodies for next season. You would, however, have to dump Gibson and Dunleavy if you decided to go for a max free agent this summer. Gibson ought to bring a first rounder, although maybe not a lottery pick in this draft, at least not until after the lottery itself.

    I don't know, Rose, Butler, Noah and Mirotic plus max free agent, plus as many as 4 more #1's, that might not be a bad plan,

    However, you really can't get max cap space and bring over Mirotic this season without dumping Noah and Taj. Realistically, other than Carmelo, who is the max worthy free agent that will actually be available this summer. Are we sure that we even want him at $20-25 million per. Personally, I have never been a Melo fan. The only thing that I do give him credit for, is that he seemed to be a team leader on a couple of those dream teams a few years back.

  • In reply to BigWay:

    See, Teague isn't helpless, if you're looking to tank he is very helpful!!

  • In reply to BigWay:

    BigWay, I love your humor! "Who ever thought that Teague and vastly superior could ever appear in the same sentence." !!

    So, GS wants Hinrich, and Houston wants Dunleavy. The question is, how bad do they want them? The Bulls now have a lot of trade bait besides the players -- the Charlotte pick, the Kings pick, two 2nd round picks from Portland, and a swap-a-pick from Cleveland for 2015.

    I would like to see the Bulls get a higher 1st round pick by trading a player, the Charlotte pick, and a 2nd for a higher 1st. Of course, maybe to do that they would need another team like the Suns, since they hold 4 1st round picks right now. There is no way the suns can develop 4 1st round draftees in the same year -- unless the team plane crashes!

    However, if the Bulls do wind up with 4 1st rounders, maybe they could trade a couple of those to the Knicks for Shumpert. Throw in Teague. That would help the Knicks rebuild. Better yet, do an S&T for Anthony, and include Taj -- providing Anthony would sign the extension for $17 million per. Anthony would ruin the tank effort, however, so that one might have to wait until after the draft.

    Lots of ways to play this, eh?

  • In reply to BigWay:

    As for losing Dunleavy, he is a nice piece for next year, but tanking is more important. Besides, I believe that Nate and Belli each signed 2-year deals, so they should be FAs again in the summer of 2015.

    If the Bulls do wind up drafting 4 1st rounders this year, they will need space to play all of them to decide who are the keepers, so their need for Dunleavy would be less.

  • Yeah, Houston's first (around 23) for Dunleavy doesn't blow me away. Dunleavy is nothing special, but especially with Deng gone, he's the type of player we need next year - a wing shooter. Hell, even a rookie picked at 23 has a salary that's at least half of Dunleavy's $3 million. And, it could take years for a rookie to event produce like Dunleavy.

    I think you need a pick under 20 for sure - probably top 15.

    It's like if Boozer was making $2 million annually for the next 2 years - would you even trade him? Probably not. Well, maybe some of you would trade him if he was working for free.

    I would miss the "gimme dat shit!" and "get dat Jo!" and "and one!"

  • In reply to Granby:

    Come on Granby, you and I both know that even if Boozer was playing for free AND paying the rest of the team's salary out of his own pocket, BigWay would still want to trade him for a 3rd-round pick.

    And he isn't the only one, either.

    But yes, I see no reason to trade Dunleavy unless it's for great value, anyone is tradeable at any time for the right package. But if you trade away all the good players on the roster for nothing, nobody will want to play here.

    You can't do the one-year tank ala the Spurs when they got Duncan by trading away all the good players.

  • In reply to Don Ellis:

    BigWay's comedic opportunities will be cut in half when Boozer leaves. O well, we will all just have to sacrifice the levity to get a contender -- yeah!

    As for trading Dunleavy, the FO should explain the strategy of all of this to Thibs. If he is not on board, then trade Dunleavy to prevent him from scuttling the tank.

    Dunleavy is more or less replaceable. After all, the Bulls had Lucas and Watson, then Nate and Belli, then Dunleavy. Fans cried over every one of those bench Gs leaving, but all got replaced.

    Besides, if the Bulls wind up with 4 1st round picks, they will need to play them all, so where do the minutes for a bench guard come from?
    .

  • In reply to rustyw:

    Even if they get first rounders for Dunleavy and or Hinrich, we certainly are not likely to get all 4 first rounders in any one season, so that really won't be an issue.

  • In reply to BigWay:

    It's not likely, but it could happen. Right now they would have their own pick and the Charlotte pick, so if they got a 1st each for Hinrich and Dunleavy, that makes 4 1st rounders, right? But I doubt they can get a 1st for Hnrich.

    But the Bulls likely would not keep them all anyway. For one thing, the FO could never get Thibs to play them all, so they might package a couple of picks to move up, or include them in an S&T for Carmelo or trade them for a Waiters or a Shumpert.

  • In reply to Don Ellis:

    No I would want to trade him for a stinking pile of cold shit, which come to think of it would be exactly equal value.

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    In reply to BigWay:

    I hope he staysstays put just so this doesn't go away. These Boozer jokes are about 80% of the reason I come here lol

  • In reply to BigWay:

    I think you're way off, there's a chance to get a 2nd round pick for a stinking pile of cold shit.

  • In reply to Don Ellis:

    You can't do a Spurs one-year tank because there's no Tim Duncan in this draft - while it's a good and deep draft there's nobody that can't miss who will come in and immediately be an all-star. And there's no David Robinson on the Bulls either, Rose and his injury issues aren't comparable.

    I wouldn't blow it up just for the sake of blowing it up, but everyone should be for sale for the right price. They're not going to be immediate contenders, Mirotic is going to take time to adjust, the picks are going to have to mature, so it's not like the Bulls should be worried if they hurt their chances a little next year, because their chances next year are pretty bad anyway.

  • In reply to Shakes:

    You're right about Rose and his injuries throwing a wrench into the Bulls plans, but if doesn't come back and at least be an All-Star they are screwed for the next 3 years anyway.

    I supposed it's possible that they don't have to amnesty Boozer and they could amnesty Rose instead, but I just don't see that happening.

    But if Rose comes back healthy, I expect the Bulls to contend next season. Replace Boozer with even a rookie Mirotic and Deng with a lottery pick, and you're not far off from where you started this season. Figure that Butler and Snell will improve with experience, and you've got a team that wouldn't be the favorites in the East, but they could beat IND or MIA in a playoff series if things work out right.

  • In reply to Don Ellis:

    Derrick Rose is not eligible for amnesty. His contract was signed under the new CBA, not the old CBA.

  • In reply to Don Ellis:

    Toni Kukoc came over as a similarly successful Euro player, at age 25 so in his prime, and still was only an average NBA player in his first year. People are expecting far too much from Mirotic straight up. He has potential to be a really good player for the Bulls, but it's unlikely to be in 2014-15. Adjustment will take time.

    Likewise with the draft pick, if the Bulls do get someone with star potential it means they've picked someone who has played a single year of college. Tim Duncan had a 4 year college career behind him. Whoever the Bulls pick, even if they tank down to a good spot, might not even be a starter next year.

    Of course the East is bad and will probably continue to be bad, so I think the 3rd seed is a real possibility for the Bulls next year. I just think it will be with maybe 50 wins, not 60 wins and true contender status.

  • ok guys, who gets traded first Hinrich or Dunleavy. And what do we get in return, draft picks?

  • Send an impact player to Charlotte so the Bulls can lift them up and get their pick this year.

  • Has a head coach ever been traded DURING a season? If you want to tank, the biggest impediment to that is Thibs. Every regular season game is like the 7th game of the NBA Finals to him.

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