Does Pau Gasol make sense for Chicago?

Does Pau Gasol make sense for Chicago?

Sam Smith noted in his column a couple of days ago that Pau Gasol would love to play for the Bulls and that the Lakers star center doesn't get along with Kobe Bryant at all. The Lakers would likely consider moving Gasol due to contract and overlapped value with Bynum alone, but chemistry issues may force their hand even more.

The interesting part, according to Lakers’ insiders, is Gasol would like to play for the Bulls. And what you hardly need any sources for is to see how he and Bryant basically can’t stand one another.

Read the full article.

Sam notes the Lakers would not consider taking on Boozer, so Bulls fans who think we can dump Boozer + Watson + a pick for Gasol as rumored quite some time ago will be sadly disappointed. If such a trade were on the table, I think the Bulls would have to consider it even with a fairly hefty luxury tax consequence.

edit - Gasol's salary is only guaranteed for two years like Deng, not three like I originally posted

instead, Sam suggests the key to making this deal work is to send Luol Deng over the Lakers with Rip Hamilton whom the Lakers could use for one more run. The trade more or less balances salary for the next season while Chicago takes a five million or so hit next season. In this sense, the trade also works as a mini-salary dump for LA whom might get better with the deal while replacing Gasol's large cap number with Deng's lower cap number in year two and breaking even while adding talent this next year which they still may have some hope of winning a title in the Kobe Bryant era.

If Chicago manages to pull that off, they'll then immediately need to find a way to move Boozer or Noah for perimeter help. Of course whether the Bulls could get anything for Boozer is up for debate. Clearly, we're talking about bad salary guys at best in a trade for Boozer, some type of overpaid perimeter player that no one wants.

Only two names really come to mind for guards that are heavily overpaid presently. Joe Johnson and Ben Gordon. Johnson's contract is much bigger than Boozer's and lasts a year long. After adding Gasol's massive salary, the Bulls couldn't afford him as well. Ben Gordon's contract is smaller than Boozer's and runs a year shorter, so Chicago would need to add something to the Pistons to make this deal work.

Perhaps Carlos Boozer + Ronnie Brewer for Charlie Villaneuva + Ben Gordon then works for both teams. Villanueva and Gordon each expire one year earlier than Boozer, so the Bulls would save a total of around five million over the three seasons but have to pay more up front. The Pistons pay a bit more, but they get the best player in the deal in Boozer.

The Bulls could also consider moving Noah to bring back real talent. I'd wonder if New Orleans would entertain a sign and trade of Eric Gordon for Joakim Noah to help Chicago solve the Bulls shooting guard problem.

Perhaps Gordon will be open to staying in New Orleans, but if he isn't, then a trade to Chicago would make an incredible amount of success for him. Joakim Noah would appear to represent pretty good value in return for the star guard. Chicago could throw in their own 2013 1st rounder and possibly the Charlotte pick to even things out for the Hornets if necessary.

If the Bulls could pull off a Noah for Gordon S&T then keep Omer + Gibson and bring over Mirotic in a year, they'd have built up a nice core group in this rebound. Two guards who can create off the dribble and score in Gordon + Rose, Gordon would still give them three point shooting.

The front court would still be similarly dangerous with Gasol, Omer, Taj, and Mirotic assuming that Mirotic pans out and have a nice balance of offense/defense while providing more shooting than the Bulls presently have.

Of course the big problem comes into play with the luxury tax. Chicago would likely be above the threshold this season as well as significantly above the next two seasons and would get socked with the repeater fee. The lineups are both pretty good and address the Bulls needs for offensive creators though as it rebuilds the Bulls around three offensive players in both scenarios who can create for themselves or others.

Of course, Chicago needs to ask itself whether or not Gasol can hold up long enough to make any of these trades worthwhile, because his career is on the downside, and the Bulls won't likely take advantage of next season which makes this a tricky proposition. If they can pull it off, either of the other trades still might make sense for the Bulls even without the Gasol trade though. They'll need to look and see what opportunities present themselves.

Comments

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  • I would not do the trade for Gasol at all. To me, he is on the decline and is soft; 3 years ago, yes, but what would they do to sweeten it? They don't have a draft pick this year and they really don't have any young intriguing talent. Deng is the better player now and then they get Rip on top of that.

    I do agree though with Noah for a Sign-and-trade Eric Gordon and would think both teams would have to be interested. The Hornets have picks 4 & 10 and they could draft Beal or Jeremy Lamb at 4 or Thomas Robinson at 4 and hope J. Lamb drops to 10 or draft whomever at pick 10. Gordon might be better than Lamb/Beal, but they should both be really good at SG plus they get the Center they need. Gordon barely played last year and from what it seems, does not want to be there.

    I wonder if the Nets would be willing to just absorb Boozer's contract if they can't get Dwight? I like Gordon, but really don't like Villanueva. If we have to take on Villy and I know they won't do it, but they should throw in this year's pick.

  • In reply to kevinstates:

    I would want Pau, but for Boozer. But since LAL isn't doing that, I would tweak the deal and try to pull this off...Boozer+Luol ...for... Pau+Metta. Metta might be crazy, but he's returned to being a good player again.

    Noah for Gordon would put the Bulls in a worse financial place than what they are now. Gordon is looking close to a max deal (about $4mil more a year than Noah).

    Regarding the Nets, everything starts with Dwill. If they can get Dwight and he still stays, they could get somebody like KG or Ilyasova for much cheaper than Boozer. The best hope the Bulls have of getting Boozer to the Nets is for the Nets to miss out of Dwight, not get KG or Ilyasova, and the Bulls amnesty Boozer and they bid $10mil for him.

    Other than that, I guess hope and pray the the Nets would agree to take Boozer, but the Bulls would have to take back all the contracts the Nets don't want (Petro, Morrow, Farmar) and then have to give up multiple draft picks.

  • If the deal is Gasol for Deng and change, I'd have to do the Boozer deal first to see what the bulls get. There is no way I'd deal Boozer for BG and Villaneuva because Boozer at least rebounds, and those two don't even do that, let alone guard anybody. Maybe Stuckey and Villaneuva...

    NO isn't going to give up EG for any deal centered on Boozer, but they might do it for Deng and Boozer. But that doesn't really help anything. After everything is said and done, you have to have wings who can match up and defend Wade and LBJ or at least Granger and George. And if you start out by giving up Deng for Gasol, a guy who only has 2-3 more good years, you are digging a pretty big hole to fill.

    And I love it when Sam steals my ideas. ;-)

  • In reply to bullshooter:

    I like your Boozer ...for... Stuckey+Villanueva deal. The only reason why I didn't consider Stuckey (and instead BGordon) is because I know DET wants to get out of Gordon's deal and maybe they like Stuckey.

    But I've wanted Stuckey for a while. He could play PG when Rose is out next year, but then switch to SG to play alongside Rose when he's back. Stuckey is a 6'5 ball handling athletic player. I kind of look at him as the poor man's Wade.

    I don't think NOH gives up EGordon for a combo of Boozer+Deng. They MIGHT have given him up for Deng (but he's injured now). I think they would trade Gordon for Noah.

  • Gasol's contract is the same length as Deng's, so it's just the 5 million more in 2013/14. Still not really sure it's a great idea to get 5 years older in the Deng for Gasol swap.

    As far as the Pistons trade scenario goes, it's all sorts of horrible. Rose + Gasol + Noah + Ben Gordon + Charlie V would already put the Bulls at ~68 million in 2013/14. Unless the Bulls are prepared to pay serious tax then that's your entire roster, vet min scrubs only to fill it out. So I think we can count it out.

    Noah for Eric Gordon is a pretty risky move given Gordon's been pretty injury prone. Noah's had his issues too, but bigs seem to hold value better than smalls through injuries. If you sign and trade Gordon for 5/60 and he goes down again next year what value would he have? At that point I think you'd struggle to get expirings for him. I like Gordon, especially given how thin the league is at SG, but I really can't see how giving up Noah for him is a good move.

    Ultimately I think we'd be in a worse position if we did those trades. Financially it's pretty poor, Noah is clearly a better value contract than Gasol at this point, and once Eric Gordon signs his next contract is he really going to be much better value than Deng?

  • In reply to Shakes:

    Nice catch on the year, the database I looked at for salaries had some invalid data, I checked Shamsports and it confirmed the correct year.

  • In reply to Shakes:

    I posted this on Doug's Bulls Beat article...

    Jerry Reinsdorf will never, NEVER Amnesty Carlos Boozer.

    How long of fans have we all been to not see this? It doesn't matter what Reinsdorf continues to say ('I will spend into the luxury tax if the Bulls are title contenders'). The Bulls were title contenders the past 2 years. Rip Hamilton was the only improvement.

    I'm a fan Doug, but all this talk about if the Bulls Amnesty Boozer now some team will bid up for his services and at best the Bulls would only have to pay Boozer only $21mil.

    That's still $21mil coming out of the pocket of Reinsdorf. Oh that's right, and after he pays Boozer all that free money, we're suppose to think he's going to spend MORE millions to sign other players to make up for the loss of Boozer? I don't think so.

    I feel Brewer and Korver are gone for sure. Butler will take Brewer's spot, and a '3 point specialist' will be brought in for the Veteran's Minimum (somebody like Jason Kapono).

    Some team who needs a Center (about half the league) will bid up Asik and the Bulls won't match. And honestly, if Luol or Noah were dumped essentially to shed salary, I wouldn't be surprised, so we should just be happy that doesn't happen.

    This will most likely be the lineup going into next season:

    C. Noah (Vet-Min 1, Draft Pick)
    PF. Booz (Taj)
    SF. Luol (Butler)
    SG. Rip (Vet-Min 2)
    PG. Rose (Watson, Lucas)

    With 3 players on rookie deals, 3 players on Vet-Min deals, and 2 players making $5mil or less, the Bulls are already at $67.5mil in payroll. Do you really think the Bulls are adding anybody else of significance?

    Like I said above, be glad Noah or Deng aren't dumped to shed salary. Reinsdorf will not Amnesty Boozer. And in all honesty, don't expect Reinsdorf to go into the luxury tax anytime soon, if ever (he has NEVER gone into the luxury tax for the record).

  • In reply to YouBlewwIt:

    I would be surprised if Boozer is not amnestied. The idea that Reinsdorf saves money by not amnestying him is simply false.

  • In reply to DougThonus:

    some people, including Sam Smith just don't get the full ramifications and new math of the new CBA.

    In fact if you attribute any luxury tax paid to keeping boozer, then the cost of amnestitizing him is zero or even becomes a positive cash flow wise.

    Not paying the luxury tax and keeping boozer are virtually mutually exclusive outcomes.

    Despite what SSS says, Amnesty is at least a 50/50 proposition this this year and 100% next.

  • With the new CBA acting as a defacto hard cap at the luxury tax threshold, massive contracts like Gasol's (an even Kobe's) are an albatross - there is no place for them anymore in the NBA. Especially beginning in 2013-14 with the increased penalties and tax rates. Only for a total superstar stud in his prime (20s) do they make any sense at all - like LeBron.

    For a player who was an ordinary all-star, who could never impose his will on the game, who is now in decine at age 32 - NEVER. The time to acquire Pau was 4 to 5 years ago when the Lakers did, not now.

    Bulls main roster problem is the contracts of Boozer and to a lesser extent Deng are too large for their talent. Neither can create or impose their will on the game. Adding another non-superstar at an even more inflated salary? We'd be trading rotten apples for rotten oranges.

    I am going to say something that may anger Bulls fans, but imo, in a few years Rose's contract may be an albatross due to the ridiculous "Derrick Rose Rule' elevating his salary to around $20 million.
    Along with the increased penalties of the luxury tax, owners significantly reduced the amount of a Max Contract. The Derrick Rose Rule violates the logical pairing of a defacto hard cap combined with a lower max contract and greatly penalizes the Bulls team as a result. It is potentially another bloated contract that handicaps a team operating under the new CBA.

  • In reply to Edward:

    You contradicted yourself by saying contracts in the 20s don't have a place in the NBA unless it's for a Superstar who's young, and then said in a couple years, the Bulls might want to deal Rose.

    But nonetheless, regarding Pau, I still think he's an All-NBA caliber player. They have to deal Boozer in the process though. Pau+Booz is a bad frontcourt. Pau+Noah is a great frontcourt.

  • In reply to Edward:

    I agree with you, teams of the future will be built around true max superstars, of which there are less than 10 at any given time, and overperforming rookie contracts, and judicously paid veterans ($5-6--8 million guys).

    Gasol is still and always has been a bit of a softie, clearly in decline and ridiculously over paid relative to his production.

    Plus, Gasol is in reality a center not a PF, so is he even a good fit for the Bulls, unless we trade Noah, which was Smiths projection.

    I cannot imagine the Bulls taking on his contract under any circumstances even for boozer straight up.

    You will be right about Rose if he does not come back 100%, and actually improve as a player should as he enters the prime years of his career 25-29.

  • Reinsdorf has to stop listening to his agent buddy and stick to being "prudent". IF you are going to ship Deng or Noah off, you better get a good lottery pick or YOUNG player like Eric Gordon,etc. The Pau Gasol scenario would only make sense if you trade Boozer in exchange, the Lakers want no part of Boozer and we should return the love in wanting no part of a massive contract to an aging declining player. NO thankyou, the Fakers can rip some other team off. Alot of potential trade partners in the New Orleans, Sacramento, Warriors, Cleveland, etc that would give us draft picks or young players. WE need to get younger, faster and more athletic not older, slower and in decline......we have Boozer to entertain us in those attributes for the next several years.

  • In reply to Defense-Rebound13:

    Great points.

    Pau would be great, but only as long as we can move Boozer in the process.

    If Reinsdorf lives up to his reputation as cheap and wants to deal Noah or Deng, it should only be for top-5 lottery picks. I personally wouldn't do it, but I can understand what they're trying to do (...be cheap...).

  • Did otis smith write this blog?

  • I'd be hesitant to trade Noah for Eric Gordon in a S&T, rather trade Deng in that deal... Or we could go in another direction... Bear with me... We could trade Noah + Deng to the Kings for Cousins + Evans + Thornton... The numbers work, at least on the trade machine, and its beneficial for both teams. It gives Sacramento all star level talent and good character guys, as well as allows them to invest in Jimmer and possibly keep the team there. The Bulls get good young talent, and I think those guys would be motivated to play well for the best team the past 2 seasons as well as the opportunity to be in the playoffs in the East. I know there are those who consider those guys knuckleheads of sorts, but Nick Young and JaVale McGee both showed that a change of scenery can make a difference. This keeps us competitive. Without Rose our lineup would be:
    PG: Evans/Watson
    SG: Thornton/Hamilton
    SF: Brewer/Butler/Korver
    PF: Boozer/Gibson
    C: Cousins/Asik

    Not bad, right? Imagine with Rose...
    PG: Rose/Watson
    SG: Thornton/Hamilton/Brewer
    SF: Evans/Butler/Korver
    PF: Boozer/Gibson
    C: Cousins/Asik

    That's a pretty good team, and dangerous from all positions... A long shot, but just a thought...

  • In reply to RC360:

    Talent wise I like it. Although the attitudes of Cousins and Evans might cause Thibs to murder one or both of them... Then we would have holes at Center, Guard and Coach.

  • In reply to RC360:

    Correct me if Im wrong Doug but no way does Sac make that trade. Cousins is a beast and is an all star waiting to happen. He may be a headache but he has some of the best skills for his size in the league. If they would make that trade Id do it in a heartbeat.

  • In reply to RC360:

    That's insane, if were the kings I wouldnt make that deal in a million years. In a year Cousins could be worth Deng and Noah all by himself. But hell, give it a shot, maybe they are total idiots.

  • In reply to ixonflex69:

    You have to consider the situation... Cousins is a beast, great player that's kind of a head case... Evans has never really lived up to his rookie year, and Sacto isn't exactly on the tops of free agents lists. This trade gives them 2 good character guys, and an all star in Deng... The Kings more than likely won't be able to keep them once their contracts are up because they'll head for greener pastures, so they get 2 very good players on longer contracts... It really isn't anymore farfetched than the Gay + Gasol for Noah + Deng proposal someone else made, I actually think that one is much more unrealistic... Just ideas people...

  • In reply to RC360:

    The reason why the Kings don't do it is because...

    1) The Maloofs don't have a lot of money.

    2) They would rather have cheap talent and not win a title, than have expensive talent and not win a title.

    I think SAC keeps Cousins no matter what (he is a knucklehead but is a MONSTER in waiting, if he can ever get it together).

    I think Tyreke however, can be had. I think SAC takes Noah for Tyreke. I think they would take Deng for Tyreke if the Bulls took back Salmons' contract and the Bulls threw in a draft pick or 2.

  • I wouldn't do the Gasol trade unless it was Boozer centered with a sweetner. With the bulls haveing essentially no shot next year you have to look at guys under thirty as guys over thirty are going to give you way to small of a window. I would do the Eric Gordon trade in a minute although would prefer to build it around Deng and Asik. I think Noah is way more valuable than Deng so if you can possibly keep him it would be much better.

    Gordon is a scorer and can create his own shot. I think he was bound for a huge year (many were speculating he was going to be one of the scoring leaders) on the Hornets before basically getting sidelined the entire season. If you can get him you do it as this is probably your last chance to make a trade for him before his value goes way up.

  • In reply to Chad:

    I think a fair deal would be Boozer+Deng ...for... Pau+Metta. I still think LAL says no because both salaries are about $25mil each and the Lakers are moving Pau to shed salary, not get equal salary back . Other than Metta, they don't have any bad contracts.

    I would make the Gordon trade for Deng+Asik as well because like you said, Noah is way too valuable, especially when Gordon is looking for a max deal (essentially $4mil more than Noah per year).

  • I'd rather trade Deng for Gordon as well, but that makes a heck of a lot less sense for New Orleans most likely.

  • In reply to DougThonus:

    Maybe...

    Deng+Asik+CHI 1st+CHA 1st ...for... Gordon+'Bad Contract' (Ariza, Jack, and/or Okafor).

    Somebody mentioned the Kings above, and although his trade scenario was too optimistic, I think Tyreke can be had. Maybe something like...

    Deng+Asik+Unguaranteed contracts (Brewer or Korver) ...for... Tyreke+Salmons' Contract+Garcia's Contract.

    SAC gets back a 7 foot defensive Center to play alongside Cousins (instead of forcing Cousins to play C), and dump 2 'bad contract's for an All-Star type player in Deng. Korver/Brewer can be cut to save the Maloofs some money.

  • In reply to YouBlewwIt:

    I think that is way too much for Tyreke Evans IMO. He is a 17-5-5 guy with no 3pt game and his stats have decreased every year. More athletic than Deng but overall that is about it.

  • In reply to DougThonus:

    You don't think Hornets would pull the trigger on Deng, Asik and the Charlotte pick maybe a Bulls 1st too? Gives them a starting C with Kaman leaving and a starting "all star" SF plus atleast one potential lottery pick.

  • In reply to Chad:

    Man you guys sure are overvaluing both Gordon and Evans, they are both talented but neither one is anywhere near a true max player, yet you are willing to trade 2 starters and 2 draft picks and take back bad contracts.

  • In reply to BigWay:

    Sure, if you're making the argument none of these guys are 'true max guys', but if we're using that as our basis, there's only about 7 or 8 'true max guys'.

    What we're talking about is who is going to get a max deal. Luol, Josh Smith, Iggy, Granger, Monta aren't 'true max guys', but they basically got max deals.

    Do you think Harden is a max player? Because he most likely will get a max deal from someone, which is why everybody talks about how OKC can't pay everybody.

    Gordon is more talented than Harden, but because of injuries, Harden is considered the better player. And like most players who get paid (or drafted), they're being done so on the potential of that player.

    Tyreke is nowhere near the level of the guys we're talking about, but his potential alone is enough to garner the proposed trades.

    And in all honestly, the only reason we're talking about giving up guys like Luol and Asik for Tyreke or Gordon is because we know the Bulls will be looking to shed salary. With Luol making about $13mil next year, and Asik due to make anywhere at an average of $7-10mil, the Bulls can't match.

  • Gasol averaged 13 and 12ppg the last two playoffs shooting .420 and .430. One year is one thing, but back to back? Can you say washed up? The last thing we need is another regular season wonder who reaches another level in the post season, that being the lower level or basement.

    L.A. is in a pickle as is everyone else whose over the cap with the new Megatax. Kobe at close to $30 Mil and Gasol's bloated contract. His expiring at the end of the 2014 season of $19 Mil and change will become attractive to someone as early as next summer. L.A. will have to find a way to jettison his contract, but will they find a sucker who will pay the extra year for his expiring? Then maybe a Bynum sign and trade for Howard hoping Dwight will love L.A.?

    Could Luol be a part of an upcoming three way deal facilitating such a move as the Laker's retool? He would certainly be very valuable to an already offensively talented squad IMO such as the Lakers. But what would or could the Bulls hope to get in return?

    Meanwhile we have our own problems. Many people including myself have mentioned a Joakim for Eric Gordon trade for some time. With New Orleans owning two lottery picks at No. 4 and 10, they could reboot with Bradley Beal or Jeremy Lamb, and trade the Chris Paul chip for a young talent as intended.

    However, Gordon has had surgery for cartilage damage in his right knee. Isn't another name for that surgery called Microfracture? Now where have we heard that before. I'm not sure trading for the next Brandon Roy is such a good idea.

    I googled Gordon's injury, cartilage, and Microfracture, but don't have my orthopedist's license yet(it's in the mail). Repeated swelling and drainage is a reason for Microdfracture surgery which is what Gordon had.

    K.C. Johnson alluded to the Bulls moving a "core piece" in a possible draft night trade scenario. If I could get a healthy Eric Gordon for Joakim I'd do it. People keep saying Jo as a big has such value, but Noah has been chronically injured including in both of the last two playoffs. My gut says some of these "major" pieces need to be relocated an in a Bull's restructuring.

    Doug talked about Omer garnering a possible restricted bid of what $9 to 10 Mil? Shooting 43% from the line in the playoffs as he did this year will get you killed in a close Conf. Finals or NBA Finals. Look at what Popovich did to the Clip's Reggie Evans and DeAndre Jordan. He took the ball away like a bully with hack-a-Shaq intentional fouls. Personally, I think Omer needs to be strongly considered for a draft day trade up if we can get a potent scoring vet or more likely to 15 or higher. And Joakim for a Gordon (healthy) level quality SG is a done deal in my book. Beyond the enamored and maybe slightly deluded Chicago fans as Doug mentioned you'd have to throw in the Charlotte pick and or a 2013 first to even get it done.

    Look at the the last seven NBA drafts and there have been some quality offensive players taken from No.15 and down. Though it's harder to do, but you have by all accounts a deep talent fairly loaded draft. Where else are you going to find talent seriously? if I'm the Bulls it's Joakim for a healthy Eric Gordon or Omer for a trade up or maybe two picks with this depth. If the Bulls converted Omer into No.'s 18 and 20(20-22) I'd take it. Andrew Nicholson and Doron Lamb. Of if you can make it to 15 maybe Arnett Moultrie. This is why you draft guy's like Omer in the late first and second rounds. To trade up ala San Antonio. Bulls dont' get stuck over valuing again. Make a move.

  • In reply to RoadWarrior:

    Pau's 'struggles' for the past 2 postseasons have been more to do with his skillset redundancy with Bynum there. Playing with a team that needs low-post presence will return him to an All-NBA caliber player again. Remember, 17.4pts-10.4rbs-3.7asts playing as the third option mostly on the high post is nothing to sneeze at.

    The Bulls would NOT do a Noah ...for... Gordon deal because Gordon is looking to get close to a max deal (and he WILL get close to it, IND wants him, which would make them title contenders, but I digress). If Gordon does get a max deal, that will be about $4mil more per year than Noah is making. If the Bulls are moving Noah for salary purposes, how does getting Gordon's salary help that exactly?

    Despite his poor FT shooting, too many teams (half the league) need 7 foot defensive Centers for him not to get a deal at $8mil per year (what I think he will get). The difference between Asik and guys like DJ and Evans is, DJ is still raw (relies on athleticism, gives up position going for blocks) and Evans is 6'8 (I would call him a flopper and rebounder, but Asik is the same, haha).

    Regarding the draft, I think James Johnson and Tyrus Thomas have scared the Bulls away from getting 'potential' guys. And with the success of Taj (26th), they tried doing the same with Jimmy Butler. If the Bulls weren't scared of themselves, they would have moved up 5 spots and taken Marshon Brooks last year. He would be our franchise SG now.

  • In reply to YouBlewwIt:

    Doug and a lot of others including myself see Pau on the downside of his career at 32. You really blame Bynum for him shooting in the low 40's as a big man in the post season two years in a row? I agree he is not suited to play with another post game big, but clearly he's showing some decline as well.

    You quickly dismiss Eric Gordon, and if his injury problem is more serious then believed by many, then I agree. But back to back 20ppg seasons on 45% shooting and good three point shooting in every season but this last one. I mean that is not a player you just dismiss out of hand. As crucial as the quality SG compliment is to Derrick it just makes his value and salary allocation that much greater in priority.

    So instead you offer Marshon Brooks as our "Franchise SG?" OK. Just for laughs let's explore this as Marshon has been a major hype target on this site.

    The Marshon Brooks clamoring is predictable as he put up 20some points per game - as a SENIOR.(sorry for all caps, but you inspired me).

    Do you know what his stat line was for last year?
    12ppg, .428, .313 3-pt%, 2.6 free throw attempts. Yep, there's are franchise player. All the the hype on him was largely due to his late, late scoring emergence, but most guys who are prolific scorers in the NBA do not wait until their senior year. Look at his free throws. He barely shoots 70% three of his four years. He didn't exhibit any exceptional numbers in rebounds etc. until his senior season. Plus there are a lot of questions about crazy shot selection and selfish ball dominant tendencies coming out of Providence.

    Scouting sites affirm his age maturity driven senior stats which were unexcpetional in his three previous seasons. "He lacks the athleticism and explosion that most scoring NBA two guards possess." NBADraft.net. I'll take the unique abilities and prospects of Mirotic over a classic signature college career of a likely mediocre rotation player in Brooks. That doesn't mean he couldn't have a good season or two, but the lack of athleticism and history of poor percentage shooting at the SG position will catch up with him eventually.

    People who write off trading Joakim with his chronic injuries and yes serious offensive limitations(and even one on one defensive limitations) I think it's time to reconsider. If we can get a healthy 20ppg scorer with terrific athleticism albeit nobody's perfect with his height disadvantage at 6'3, but you can get that for Hospital Wagon Jo, you f-ing get him. Not Marshon hypetrain Brooks.

  • In reply to RoadWarrior:

    Pau is definitely on the downside of his career being 32yrs old, but he's not declining at the rate of someone like Boozer is. I truly feel if Pau is on a team like the Bulls, he can put up 20+pts, 10+rbs, and 3+asts, especially when he's the lone post player.

    I don't quickly dismiss Gordon. I LOVE Gordon. I am the the fan that wants Gordon, would pay him a max deal (despite his injury history) because I don't think he's even scratch the surface of his potential. I was merely opining the Bulls wouldn't take that risk, giving up a player like Noah (or even Luol) for Gordon, his max deal, and injury history.

    Regarding Brooks...he's a rookie. Here are some rookie numbers for 2 of the 3 consensus top SGs in the league...

    7.6pts, .417, .375 3-pt%, 2.3 FTA
    9.9pts, .403, .375 3-pt%, 3.2 FTA

    That's Kobe and Harden in their rookie years. My point with Brooks being our 'franchise SG' wasn't that he was suppose to be Kobe or Harden, but that we would be set at the SG position and wouldn't need to look for one every year.

    You honestly believe Noah is injury prone when each injury is not recurring, but something you could argue a freak accident (someone whacking his thumb, Noah rolling his ankle), whereas Gordon has chronic knee problems but he's suppose to be 100% better now?

  • In reply to YouBlewwIt:

    Ha, ha, ha.

    Dude. Even mentioning James Harden(and his college numbers) in the same breath as Marshon Brooks is farsical. Harden was a prolific scorer who shot for high field goal percentages from the get go. Completely apples and oranges bogus comparison bringing up those rookie stat lines. When you have Harden's resume you have faith. When you suck as a shooter for three straight years as Brooks did you say a few Hail Mary's and knock back a fifth of scotch. I'm betting he'll have two decent years, and then go south partyly due to his selfish, undynamic mode of play in college and lacking elite athleticism which is huge by the way, and Harden has plenty of. Give it up

  • In reply to RoadWarrior:

    I was comparing rookie numbers, something you evidently like to use to make your argument against Brooks on one hand, and then on the other, shoo it away when I use it for Harden. Sounds contradictory to me.

    You had me fooled there for a minute. When you said Harden was a prolific scorer and Brooks was not, I actually thought you knew what you were talking about. Then I decided to do that thing called research, and then I found Harden averaged 17.8 and 20.1 in his 2 college years...not exactly 'prolific'.

    Yes, it took Brooks some time in college to get to where he is now, but what he did was called a 'natural progression'. You know, like when you're a Freshman, you barely get playing time, and then as each year goes by, you get more playing time, and oh what's that? The scoring average goes up? What a coincidence.

    And again, if you actually read my comment instead of forcing your predisposed subjectivity as some sort of rebuttal, you would have saw I stated Brooks probably won't end up like a Harden or Kobe, but having Brooks would solve the Bulls' '2nd shot creator' problem (albeit for the short run or the long run).

    So instead of spewing your ill-conceived notions, I think it's time you put the bong down and debate the points people actually write.

  • In reply to YouBlewwIt:

    Wait, you "Love" Gordon in one breath, but then in the next he's a cripple? Give it up.

  • In reply to RoadWarrior:

    If you actually read my comment instead of just piling through them and then inserting your own, you would have saw what I wrote.

    I said I love Gordon, and would give him a max deal despite his history of injuries. Meaning, I would take that risk with him because I think he's that good.

    The fact that he has had chronic injury problems does not change my viewpoint. But I do see how you skirted the issue of Noah's injury history vs. Gordon's injury history.

    So what, the Bulls check out Gordon and he's 100% in this offseason. Is that suppose to mean he's going to be 100% for an entire season or the rest of his career? No.

  • In reply to YouBlewwIt:

    Just have to comment on the Brooks thing. You say they should have traded up for him, but it all depends on how good Miritic is going to be. If he is the next Dirk, then they made the right move. If he is the next Radmanovic, then you are right.

  • In reply to PaBullfan:

    Absolutely 100% if depends on Mirotic.

    But let's be real. Mirotic probably won't come until 3 or 4 years from now (his contract is up in 4 years).

    Doug is being optimistic when he's coming up with his strategy of 'persuading Mirotic to come over now'.

    If Mirotic came over here, he would be under the rookie scaled contract of about $6mil in his first 4 years in the NBA.

    On the pace he's going, when his contract is up, he could legitimately sign overseas for a contract $5mil and more (Rudy Fernandez got a $5mil per year deal offered to him).

    So, I know a lot of fans have high hopes of him coming over, but there's a realistic chance he doesn't come at all.

    And regarding moving up to get Brooks, they could have traded a future draft pick to do so.

  • In reply to RoadWarrior:

    That's the problem with you "college guru's" you always think that you will outsmart everyone in draft and come up with a top 5 talent in the teens and twenties. You want to trade Asik for what, James Johnson.

    The only guy projected to go in the teens that might excite me as a Bull, would be Austin Rivers, and he is gone before 15. I would take a chance on Deng for Rivers, but not Noah.

    Asik would be a top 10 pick if he was in this draft(see Tyler Zellar), so why trade him for a 15-20. Noah would be the first or second pick in this draft, just like people projected that he would have been had he come out after his first championship year at Florida.

    I would trade Deng for Eric Gordon, but not Noah. What is this Gordon in reality, a better version of Ben. However, the Hornets will overvalue Gordon because he was the centerpiece of the Chris Paul trade.

  • In reply to BigWay:

    Said in geez voice, "You pesky college upstaahts with yorr fancy schamncy stahtistics and fawrmulated, ahrticulate ideas. Phooey I say! In my day we ate fried potaoes out of a rusty skillet, and died a horrible health neglected death at 49. And weee LIKED IT! We LUUVED IT!! By Jeehosephat!"

    Seriously(sorry but I had to with "college guru?" whoa grampa.). Picking below the top ten is a risky proposition. But that risk is somewhat lowered in a by all accounts deep draft. With the CBA salary freeze looming a lot of the talent pool of 2011 got bottled up for this draft of 2012. So ten has the potential of maybe five, twenty maybe 13-14.

    Noah's draft sucked. After Durant who do you even have in the top 30? This is not that draft. Joakim when he was on the rise yes might be worth a top three pick in this draft. But those days are over. You're telling me right now Joakim in what people know now would be the second pick in this draft? Try more like Top 12. Maybe. And 43% free throw offensive abomination Omer Asik Top Ten? If he really has that kind of value then go trade him for a good offensive player because that's what you should be able to get for him.

    I know the tendency for fans is to propose sucker trades that pawn off your over valued inferior goods for potent efficient offensive players, but I mean, come on. Some of you guys over value as bad as Gar/Pax do themselves. Mental osmosis? Cloning?

    Ask Doug if he would trade Joakim for a verified healthy Eric Gordon(back to back 20ppg seasons on 45% shooting with good three point shooting every eyar except this season) straight up, and see what he says. He needs a change honestly as do some of these other guys. Jo, Deng, Rose. the injuries alone have cast a paul over this team. SG or not if they are this big of an offensive abomination in two straight playoffs, come on, we need a change in personnel for the good of everybody.

    Most teams build successful championship franchises with the draft. How many LeBron/Wade and Garnett/Pierce/Allen HOF combinations are out there over time? This year is better then most to draft. Denver found Ty Lawson and Kenneth Farried. Boston Rajon Rondo. Detroit Tayshaun Prince. Dallas Josh Howard who was a hell of a player for several years before the "I Hate America" bong tour. Danny Granger No. 17. David Lee No. 30. Monta Ellis at No. 40(and that's all in one draft 2005).

    In recent years 16-30 has been pretty sparse I admit it. Maybe the science of picking has improved. Still talent pools are cyclicle as anyone who studies the draft will tell you.

    If you think free agents will flock here look at the track record. Or we can trade Noah for a difference making SG, or Omer for a potent offensive player then fine.

    Really with constriciting salaries more and more teams are going to have to get lean and mean, and get some of these picks right. Especially in a deep, bottled up talent year such as 2012. At least maybe trade up to early 20's if you can, and get Andrew Nicholson or Doron Lamb(or Jeff Taylor if he's still there).

    As for Austin Rivers with no exceptional rebounding numbers or steals and 65% free throws with unorthodox shooting mechanics I'd say he's a wait, and see. There are better prospects at 15 or even 20 then Austin Rivers IMO. Though if we drafted him I certainly wouldn't be dissapointed per se, but again that would be obtained by doing as I'm suggesting which is trading up.

  • In reply to RoadWarrior:

    So who exactly is providing that guarantee that Gordon is completely healthy, or that he ever will be.

    We already have one member of our starting backcourt recovering from major knee surgery, so why not trade our second best player for another undersized guard so they can rehab together.

    and who exactly is guaranteeing that this is the deepest draft in history.

    It has a clear cut #1 who isn't anywhere near the Lebron, Rose, Durant talent level, after that it is deep in mediocrity and question marks.

    Dealing with reality instead of getting caught up in the hype of the draft makes me a grandpa, most NBA GM's would say that makes me wise.

  • One other thought: the Lakers are in a real jam if they want to avoid the Megatax. Just how badly do they want to get rid of Pau? I mean, if you have them over a a barell, maybe you send them Lu(also chronically injured), and get some third team's first rounder(s) and in two years when Derrick is fully healthy you have a huge expiring for free agency plus a possible major talent infusion. It'd have to be a failry high first with a particular player future offensive stud in mind or two firsts the next two years from frachises where the picks will be at least mid to upper teens.

  • In reply to RoadWarrior:

    If the Bulls didn't exercise their option on C.J. and Kyle or Ronnie is gone then couldn't the Bulls stay under the tax threshold?

  • In reply to RoadWarrior:

    C. Noah (Vet-Min 1, Draft Pick)
    PF. Booz (Taj)
    SF. Luol (Butler)
    SG. Rip (Vet-Min 2)
    PG. Rose (Watson, Lucas)

    With 3 players on rookie deals, 3 players on Vet-Min deals, and 2 players making $5mil or less, the Bulls are already at $67.5mil in payroll.

  • Boozer+CJ+Brewer for Lakers other than that no trade at all.. We need young, athletic and hard hose defenders. And Thibs texted me.. (they must be veterans)... hmmm???

  • I would just like to point out, Sam Smith doesn't exactly know his stuff. Recently, he's really been known more for making up complete rumors and speculation, but getting notoriety from it because he wrote the 'MJ Rules' book what, 25 years ago?

    In his particular 'Trade for Pau' article, he also lists potential trades for Noah and the most he think Noah can fetch is something like Kirk Hinrich (who's a FA) and Marvin Williams (who's considered a bad contract). There were other packages, but they were similar to that. So I wouldn't exactly look to Sam Smith as some 'NBA insider' anymore.

  • If the Bulls traded Noah for Gordon, they would actually be in a worse position (financially and team-wise). Gordon is expecting up to a max deal from NOH, IND, or some other team (that's about $4mil per year more than what Noah is currently making).

    I've suggested trading Boozer+Filler ...for... Gordon+Villanueva for a year now. This would allow Taj to start and Villanueva come in as a stretch-4, and Gordon can be that JET, Crawford, 6th-man type player again.

    Pau is still an All-Star/All-NBA player. His role was just redundant in LA because of Bynum's emergence (from the low post). Pau is so skilled that he primarily played in the high post and put up 17.4pts-10.4rbs-3.7asts, AND he plays defense. In CHI, he would be playing in the low post, so you could expect him to come back to 20-10.

  • In reply to YouBlewwIt:

    Problem is Pau will be 33 by the time the Bulls will be competitive again (2013-14). Bigmen have a longer shelf life but at 33 that gives you maybe 2 seasons to make a run while he is still solid. To me we need to look at younger options.

    Ben Gordon will be 30 in 2013-14 at barely over 6 ft I don't see him as a good option as he loses athletisicm.

  • basically, the Sam Smith deal comes down to Deng and Noah for Gasol and Gordon, with the Bulls giving up sweeteners(i.e. draft picks, role players or the Bulls taking back other bad contracts)

    Would you trade Noah, straight up for Gasol today, probably not given that Gasol is 5-6 years older and costs $15 million more over the next 2 years.

    Would you trade Deng for Gordon straight up, I would, but I have never loved Deng. Short term(next 2 seasons) the money is likely a wash , but the injury risk is far greater with Gordon, despite Deng's history.

    Finally, if you do these deals you absolutely have to amnesty boozer now, your are still going to be a tax payer now, and you have to find another quality big even if you keep Asik and Taj.

    If Rose wasn't hurt and we were going to compete for a championship this year I would say that it might be worth the risk, but with no guarantees on when or if Rose will be Rose it would seem to be a short term gamble not worth the risk.

  • Just a few comments. Saying Noah's injury had anything to do with history is just unfair. He stepped on AI's foot. God would have sprained his ankle in that situation. The Eric Gordon trades are interesting, but I have to wonder who guards Labron? I know he had big games against the Bulls but he is an all time great. Deng plays him better than anyone I can think of. And I think Deng is undervalued by most Bulls fans, on bulls sites people seem to hate him. Nationally, coaches and tv "experts" love him. How many small forwards are better than him? Labron, Durrant, Gay, most will say Carmelo (i'd take Deng over him though), and I can't think of anyone else. As for Gasol, I don't want him anymore. The thought of him playing next to Noah is an interesting one, but I'm ready to move on to Taj Gibson. I think he could have an Ibaka type impact for the Bulls if given starter minutes. I think he is a better man to man defender and rebounder than Ibaka and only a slightly less shot blocker. Everyone wants to count out this team next year, but with the way this year's playoff are going, I am not. IF this team was healthy, they would have beaten the 6ers and the celtics, and the Heat don't look that tuff right now. Next year, by the time the playoffs come around, I wouldn't be suprised to see the Bulls with a top 3 or 4 seed and a healthy team ready to take revenge for their lost year.

  • I'll speak on Noah for Gordon. While Gordon is injury prone and that is a concern, we need a second scorer and need to give to get. I think both teams should do it as it is a perfect situation. Gordon is an awesome second scorer to Rose. He can shoot, is young, and can create a little while not being a liability on D.

    I love Noah, but we have a solid backup with Asik. Now while people say he is offensively challenged, in two years with Rose, Gordon, Mirotic, we really need more of a defensive staple/offensive board guy for cheaper, this all falls into place.

    Noah give New Orleans a Center-piece and they are in perfect position to draft Beal/10th pick such as Lilliard. That is a heck of a start.

  • In reply to kevinstates:

    When Sam Smith or whoever else pointed out New Orlean's had two top ten picks it just hit me like a ton of bricks. If they were offered Noah as the anchor big with Beal and one of Lamb, Lillard etc, that would kill three birds with essentially one stone(draft). And hell yes give them the pie in the sky Charlotte pick which it will probably take as I doubt they will do a straight Noah for Gordon trade without a sweetner as Doug suggested. Do it now. By the way I'm all in on Andrew Nicholson. Seriously his prolific scoring with those utlra high field goal percentages and only playing organized basketball since his junior year? He's the one. If not then Doron Lamb see NCAA game after game crazy numbers plus unheard of three point percentages. And both personally and in interviews seem very good to me. How do we trade up to No. 20?

  • In reply to RoadWarrior:

    Here is a great idea for you

    Maybe we should trade everybody but Rose(Deng, Noah, Asik and Taj) for mid to late first round picks.

    Maybe we can even get a second round pick for boozer.

    That way you won't have to pick from among all these amazing talents that the first 15-20 teams in the draft will pass on, you can have them all, as we corner the market on guys who have at least a 10% chance of being in the league 2 years from now while simultaneously getting as far under the salary cap as possible for that next big free agent class.

    Next years starting lineup while Rose is out, 4 rookies and Jimmy Butler, that should prep us for a championship run in 2013 when Rose is healthy.

    You guys seem to forget, Taj and Asik are what a great mid to late first round pick looks like.

  • I would love to see Thibs play a Gasol and Omer front court! Man that would be huge! Love that idea Doug.

    Rose
    Gordon
    Butler
    Taj
    Gasol

  • Would a back court of D Rose and Lou Williams make any sense?

  • In reply to Sluggers:

    not defensively.

  • A thought: Dengs current health status may not bring his trade value down for certain teams. If for instance it is a rebuilding NOH squad, the absence of Deng for a large portion of the season could result in a better lottery position the following season. They get the relatively young long term player they need for the future, but his delayed arrival to the court allows them to further strengthen their team in the 2013 draft.

  • Finally Boston got smart and figured out you only have to guard to players on Miami.

  • In reply to SoulEater7:

    or two

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