Let's ignore the fact that swapping Melo + Chandler for Howard + Turkoglu makes a world more sense for them and probably works for Orlando as well. Let's also ignore the fact that the Knicks almost certainly say no to this trade. If this were on the table, and you had to live with it contractually and on the court do you do it?
A year ago, I would have said this is a no brainer. Luol Deng's all-star selection doesn't really change my view. He snuck in as the second best player on the team with the best record in the NBA at the time. It felt like the Bulls needed some other representation and Noah was playing poorly and Boozer only played one side of the ball.
However, watching what's happened with Denver and New York after the trade as well as what's happened with New York while he's been out is concerning. The Knicks have had trouble moving the ball all year long. Carmelo Anthony has shown himself to be a complete ball stopper. He's publicly said he won't shoot less [and depending on the context, this makes a lot of sense, so we'll give him the benefit of the doubt].
The Denver Nuggets improved by trading Anthony for role players, and the New York Knicks didn't get any better by getting Anthony for role players. The team now has a quality player at every position with Lin, Fields, Anthony, Stoudemire, and Chandler while still bringing some Smith and Davis off the bench.
That group, on paper, looks pretty deadly. You've got four guys who can create their own shot [5 counting Baron Davis], the perfect defensive rebounding center, and a defensive oriented SG who can knock down open threes at a good clip. The team is largely in their primes with a high level of athleticism as well.
However, book it, this team isn't going to play up to the paper version of itself. The games of all their scorers aren't going to mesh, and Carmelo Anthony is about to become the lightning rod in the discussion about players that need to go. Anthony's got three years and 67 million left on his contract, an average slightly over 22 million a year.
Would you really touch Carmelo at that price as a Bulls fan? When looking at the Bulls payroll going forward, presume that Anthony's contract simply needs to replace 22 million and the Bulls are effectively losing Deng + two MLE slotted players to keep Anthony on the roster going forward.
Those players might be Deng + Brewer + Omer or Deng + Brewer + Taj. They might not go out in the trade that way, but the Bulls will still only have a finite amount of money slotted to pay guys, so the end cost will look similar to that.
Is Melo worth it? He provides so much of what the Bulls desperately need, by giving them the secondary shot creator and isolation player. At what cost though? Is he improving the offense or just collecting stats by disrupting it? Would he kill our present philosophy of ball movement by stopping the ball too much? Would he pull the ball out of Rose's hands too much? Would he give you the effort Deng does on defense?
When something seems this absurd, it usually is. It seems absurd to not want to trade Luol Deng for Carmelo Anthony. It feels like it simply has to be a knee jerk reaction to the Knicks playing better over a small stretch with him out [a stretch against mostly really crappy teams as well]. It probably is an overreaction, and the next time the Bulls struggle to create a shot with Derrick Rose on the bench [or not on the bench], the pining for a guy who can get his own shot whenever he wants will return.
However, I'm not sold on Anthony. Not if the end cost to the team is Deng + two high caliber role players. I'd bet Tom Thibodeau isn't either.
Filed under: Trade rumors
Tags: Carmelo Anthony, chicago bulls, Luol Deng, new york knicks
What? No way.
man that's a tough question but I think I will !!
Getting Melo for Deng is trying to replicate Miami's team. We have a much poorer version of Bosh in Boozer, another poorer version of LeBron in Melo and a little bit of richer version of Wade in Rose. So, theoritically, this should work. Miami has a poorer version of Noah in Joel Anthony and plus Chicago has Hamilton.
But, these things take time to mesh when it really gets exposed like in the second round of the playoffs and beyond when teams know every move of these guys by then. Doing this, we are giving up on this season. That said, Rose can play off-ball and is more explosive than Lin to mesh with Melo.
Honestly, this question doesn't have an obvious answer. You know I had been lobbying for Melo all last season. Since it only takes Deng, it would be foolish not to trade. But given how he doesn't fit in NY, i'm starting to question wether or not he could play with Rose.
I think the real question is : Is Melo a real selfish player who breaks the offense or it is Mike d'antoni who doesn't know how to use him ?
The answer is clearly both.D'Antoni struggles to use anyone who can't either shoot threes or play pick and roll basketball. That said, Melo has always been a selfish guy who just cares about his. A better coach like George Karl might be able to get him to play for the team a bit more, but you can't make the leopard change its spots.
I think Melo will fit with Rose. First of all, Melo was not really healthy the few weeks before Lin took over. And, yesterday's game is not a referendum on how he will play with Lin. Is there some parts of his game he needs to change. Yes..definitely. But to dismiss him as a ball-hog who won't fit is kind of a quick judgement call for any system.
LeBron and Wade took a while to mesh and they probably talked/practised a lot. Even now, they mesh.
The point is if Rose can be effective for 48 mins, it is great and you don't need Melo. But, we have seen Rose can have his down time because of match-ups or others screwing it up or zone or whatever. That's when you need that second iso-star kind of player to take over for 15-18 mins. Melo can do that and nobody else on the Bulls can do that. That's the advantage Miami has. Off-course, they need to learn to know when to take-over, when to share etc..That's the 22 mill dollar question with Melo.
yeah you are tottaly right. Moreover, Knicks don't play defense therefore you can't blame it all on Melo. Unlike NY, chicago plays defense and only requieres a 2nd creator besides Rose.
So schaumburgfan would you trade Deng+brewer for melo ?
I hope GarPax would do a Deng+Brewer for Melo because obviously I am pretty much an armchair GM like everyone here;-)
The best thing is if Lin doesn't mesh with Melo, his value drops more. That's when the Bulls need to strike. I doubt both teams do it this season. But after this season, if the Bulls come up short again and NY sucks too this season...it might be a good change of scenery for both Melo and Deng. Deng is perfect if we had a great option at SG or PF who can share the offensive load from Rose. Rip can probably be that...but for this team to click, everyone has to be 100% healthy. If we have Boozer at PF and unreliable option at SG, Melo is better for the Bulls than Deng. If the Bulls had somebody like Joe Johnson at SG, Deng would have been perfect and there would be no need for Melo
Knicks don't play defense? New York is a better defensive than offensive team this year. Funny how adding a good center can make a team play defense.
The big worry about obtaining Melo shouldn't be defense, it's that he'd drag down the Bulls #3 rated offense with his ball stopping ways.
Do you really think our offensive rate will make us pass the heat ??
Probably not, but I think there's even less chance of beating the Heat with Melo playing isolation basketball against one of the best perimeter defenders in the league in LeBron.
I don't think I'd argue that doing this trade gives up on teh season. 30 games is plenty of time to turn it around.
OK, I guess I could be down for a Brewer for Melo swap, make the salary filler Boozer instead of Deng and you've got a deal. ;)
The Bulls are currently third in offensive rating, despite missing the MVP for 10 games. What exactly about Melo is it that they "desperately need"? I can't say I've watched the Bulls and said "we really need a guy who would just hang onto the ball for 20 seconds before throwing up an off balance 20 footer over 3 players".
If Melo used his skills to play for the team rather than himself then great, he could be a star in actuality rather than just in name. However the chances of him doing that are slim to none as even he admits.
What the Bulls have is effective even if it doesn't always look pretty. Why change that unless you're robbing another team in the trade? I don't really see the point in swapping players for players who are a worse fit.
Do you really think that offensive efficiency translates against a good team? I just don't see it. This offense has really struggled badly at times, and I think against the Heat I'm not sure that we really have found an answer to get consistent decent offense out of the squad.
Hopefully Hamilton fills that void, but I'd love another true shot creator on this team come playoff time.
No, but nobody's offensive efficiency does, that's why they're good teams, they play defense and make it hard for you. Every team struggles to score against good defensive teams, I don't see the Bulls as really special here.
Against the Heat we're in trouble with or without Melo. I think we'd be worse off with Melo because trying to play isolation basketball against LeBron James is just about the most stupid way I can think of to attack the Heat.
I thought that you were Mr. Offensive efficiency, your favorite go to stat, now you seem to be poo-pooing it vs good or great defense, hmmm.
No Melo is a ball hog and (Rose, Deng, Noah) are UNTOUCHABULLS!!!!!
Deng and Noah are not untouchable! Bulls would trade the 2 of them for Howard in a heartbeat and proceed to win multiple NBA titles! The question is, how much more would it take to do that trade?
Who are you kidding? I wouldn't trade Luol for a rejuvenated 21 year old Michael Jordan. Luol is our glue! Lets make this clear...
THE ONLY UNTOUCHABLE BULL IS ROSE! End of story. Of course it matters who we get in return for Luol, but he's 100% tradable.
well said
I would certainly have done this deal a year ago for 2 reasons: 1) Melo is a killer scorer, especially in the playoffs (the Bulls would have beat the Heat in the playoffs last year with Melo); and 2) Deng, Noah, and Boozer were all injured more than Melo!
Now, however, we see that Melo gets hurt too. Still, this deal costs a lot less than it would have to get Melo last year. I would do it. Let the coaches earn their salary and figure out how to mesh the players!
The Boozer for Gasol trade also looks good. Miami would have a huge problem with both Noah and Pau on the Bulls front line.
But the best would likely be to get Howard from Orlando.
Best guess: None of these trades happen!
I believe that none of these trades happen either. Obviously we want one of these to happen because even the most loyal Bulls fan is worried about the South Beach LeQueens. I believe the deal that would least disrupt the team chemistry is the one that brings back Pau. I think a crappy offer that we make would be Boozer + Watson + Asik + 2 1st rounders (Ours in 2012,2014) + $2M for Gasol and Blake. Yes we lose the flexibility of being able to amnesty Boozer but we gain one year on the back end of the deal (Pau has 2 years after this one, Boozer has 3). We can sell the Lakers on the fact that they 1) immediately realize $8M in luxury tax savings, plus the $2M we give them in the trade, 2) They will have increased flexibility next year because Boozer makes $4M less than Gasol next year, 3) They get a good young piece in Asik. I think you could convince the Lakers to take this deal, especially as we get toward the deadline. There is a chance with deal (and a couple of smaller deals/decisions) they could get under the cap to sign Dwight.
That's a lot to give up for Pau. I'm not sure I'm that big a Pau fan.
according to nolebron that is a crappy offer on our part, I'd hate to see a solid or good offer, I'm afraid it might include Rose.
Obviously, I would do the falsely rumored to be boozer and Watson for Gasol trade in a heartbeat, I might even throw in one of our #1 picks.
Gasol and Noah is a much better and more versatile front court than Noah and boozer.
No way I'd do this deal, mainly for the reason that you're going to give NY a small forward who'll willingly and play defense and pass the ball, and a defensive minded SF/SG who doesn't mind coming off the bench. All they need is one less ball hog and more defense - why would you give them that? Plus, what do you do with Boozer? Less touches, not an offensive rebound guy, and still plays fair to poor to terrible defense. IMHO, this deal puts the Bulls behind NY, not closer to Miami.
It all comes down to what you think Thibs can get out of Melo. Thibs can't get Boozer to play much defense, so why would you think that Thibs could get Melo to play much defense. Does a mediocre (for him) Melo in place of Deng make the bulls that much more likely to beat the full strength Heat? I don't really think so in that the marginally improved offense is balanced out by the worse defense. A Boozer/Melo forward combination isn't going to scare or stop anybody.
Even Booz is playing a bit more defense, tho it is spotty. Must be peer pressure! Melo would up his defense in Chicago, especially if he saw a real shot at a title. Plus, the guy can rebound.
Besides, this trade is not a "marginally improved offense." Melo has been deadly in the playoffs. He could drop 30 on the Heat every game if healthy, while snatching 8 rebounds. If he has an off night, he gets 20 points, where Boozer gets 4.
Would anyone do the proposed Melo for Noah deal now if we could turn back time? That to me is the question.
In all honesty my answer very well might be yes. I watched Carmelo yucking it up with Jeremy Lin, and I just dont' see a terrible person. Sure he can be a ball hog, but I could see him buying in with a Phil etc. Thibs? I dunno know.
Otherwise, beyond Noah when his value was that high, this is just more Melo fantasy league. I don't mind hypotheticals at all. They can be entertaining and sometimes enlightening. However, a while back the Melo promulgations just went on and on to ad nauseum.
I'd be much more interested in something that at least was within the realm of possiblity. Is there anything out there to significantly upgrade our offense as in doable? If so, I highly doubt the Bulls would break up the core they have assembled.
We just have to hope Richard Hamilton as a 34 year old who missed significant games the last three years with injuries , and insighted a muntiny(albeit against a shlunk psuedo head coach in Keuster) will come back, and be able to give us anything close to the glimpses of excellent play we saw at times. He seems like a good guy, but I still have a few doubts we can count on him.
Regardless, the Bulls will do nothing as the deadline approaches at least nothing significant. Agreed?
Melo for Deng and Noah? No, I would not do that in hindsight or even think about it to be quite honest.
Didn't want to give up Noah as an add on for Melo last year, don't want to do it now
Deng and Brewer, we would have no choice but to do it, if it were ever actually on the table, despite my reservations about Melo's character, basketball and/or otherwise.
We need that second go to guy to get past Miami, Deng(or snoozer) are just never going to get it done against the Heat.
You don't have to be a terrible person to be a PAB, punk ass bitch, which I think Melo is, and is not usually associated with being a winner.
Must be a slow news day...
Regardless of who it would require Bulls trade, Bulls are not even remotely considering trading for Melo and his $67 million over 3 years.
Have we forgotten who owns the Bulls? And that under the new CBA the luxury tax threshold is effectively a hard cap? And that Bulls got screwed by the Derrick Rose Rule requiring $3 million more per year from the tax threshold go to Rose?
End of story. Actually, it never was a story, unless you count last years' rumors with Denver, not the Knicks.
They might consider doing it if they could unload boozers contract, (which they can't because the Knicks already have Amare) even though it(boozers contract) is "only" $47 million over the next 3 years.
However, that $20 million extra for Melo is all tax money, so it is really an extra $45, $50 or maybe even $55 million extra, so yeah, Reiny isn't going to let it, never mind make it happen.
So really, the only financially doable deal is Deng and Boozer for Melo. While Deng might be a nice fit in the new Jeremy Lin centric world, would the Knicks want Amare and Boozer
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=7p7h5he
Plus Lakers get picks/cash. Rockets have coveted Asik, I'm sure they wouldn't mind parting with a backup PG to get him. Lakers get a good (not great) PG (but news flash, where are they going to get a great PG from?), not that much of a drop-off from Booz to Gasol, plus Booz is younger and Lakers save Luxury Tax $. This trade also works with Beaubois from Dallas or Luke Ridnour from MIN, it also works with Jose Calderon but you have to send CJ Watson to TOR along with Asik.
Thanks for sharing a trade that's actually viable to all parties. The Lakers are the only team here who'd be likely hold out for more. One minor additional player (Jimmie Butler, say) might help swing it, especially since LAL needs help at SF, though I imagine they'd still rather send Bynum/Gasol for Dwight than do this.
As for "Boozer + Watson + Asik + 2 1st rounders (Ours in 2012, 2014) + $2M for Gasol and Blake," there's no way the Bulls should do that. Watson is too good, though the Lakers might prefer him to Dragic.
Personally, I'd still be looking to swap Asik for an upgrade at SG.
http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=7k329xj
Toronto could use a young backup C; they have over $4m in cap space; and they currently have the 4th worst record in the league, which means they might as well look ahead to the draft. We could trade Asik + Brewer + the Charlotte pick for DeMar DeRozan. Toronto could elect to take Rip instead of Brewer (starting 3/1) if they prefer. And we might have to include our own 2012 1st rounder. They could take our 2012 and 2014 1st rounders instead of the Charlotte pick. DeRozan would give us a young, shot-creating SG.
Sweet Pluto, I love the Trade Machine.
Looking over the stats again, we'd probably have to give at least 2 and probably 3 picks, including the Charlotte pick, to have anything resembling a chance at DeRozan. I'd do it without hesitation (and then try to sign Kaman with the additional cap room).
B-zooty: I've been screaming for the bulls to use the Asik trade asset to acquire a valuable, young shooting guard. Luv the idea of DeMar DeRozan being a bull! I believe Toronto would be more interested in Asik-Brewer-Butler combination with a future draft choice. The Raptors are focused on building a young athletic team. Still, I have not heard that DeRozan is being made available in trade talks. Why did you select him as a trade target? Tx, c
I don't think DeRozan is "available," but I hope the Bulls are actively inquiring about him and players like him.
There was talk that DeRozan was on the table for trades just before the 2011 draft. The Raptors were trying to move up, but ultimately they stated they would not be trading him. He also had been playing very poorly at the beginning of this season, which led many Raptors fans and websites to discuss the possibility of trading him, but his game has picked up considerably the last few weeks. In any case, it's unlikely the Raps would trade him, but I think if they saw an opportunity to improve in the future without him, they'd have to consider it. After all, he's a second or third option rather than a player you can build a team around.
I don't think Asik carries all that much trade value.
I think Simmons already pointed this out, but Melo has Ewing potential for two different teams this season. Denver has looked better since he was traded away, and the Knicks took off during his injury stint.
Not sure if that is they type of player I'd look to add to the team.
Speaking of trades, I hope the Bulls make something out of that Charlotte 2016 pick sooner rather than later. Years ago, that Minnesota 2012 pick looked to be sure gold. Now, you're looking at the back of the lottery in all likelihood. My fear is that the same thing happens with the Charlotte pick.
If Charlotte gets a good player this year, a good player next year, and an average player in 2015; that pick could be next-to-worthless in the grand scheme of things (read: contributing to a title run). Granted, MJ is running that team, and for all the Midas touch he had on the floor, he's been the anti-Midas off it. Still, if Kahn and Sterling can put together respectable teams in the same year, anything can happen.
Forgot a year. They have 4 opportunities to add good players before the Bulls have full rights to that pick.
UGH.
Amen.
If you can get a player that really helps you, then you move the Charlotte pick. However, do you see some other team giving you a star player for the charlotte pick? Do you see us having any value in trading it for a role player?
The only way it will be moved, IMO, is if it's part of a package of assets for a star talent. There's no need to move it for a role player and it's not worth more than that on its own.
sure i believe the Bulls need to make a move but alot of unrealistic trade scenarios. I would prefer the Bulls go after the 3 point assassin Ray Allen. He's 36 years old but his game is not based on athleticism. The Bulls could potentially get him with a first round pick and korver since Ainge has said the Celtics aren't contenders this year so they might blow it up and try to rebuild around Rondo with younger players. Thibodeau would be in heavenly bliss if he was reunited with Ray Allen and Rose would love the spacing that he creates.
Would the Celts do that? If they would, how would that affect the Bulls cap? Could it kill any possible trade for Howard? The Bulls would be better, but if it's not enough to beat the Heat, don't do it -- it might nix better trades in the next couple of weeks.
If the Celts are looking to rebuild at the deadline then Korver + Brewer (or Watson) + Bulls first for Allen seems like a sweet deal.
I'm not sure how the cap situation shakes out next year with hamilton on board with one more year at 5m and probably why keeping Butler makes sense from a cap situation. But one thing you constantly notice is teams playing zone against the Bulls, so having a zone busting 3 point shooter would be great. But your right, Bulls might have to get rid of Hamilton as well to fit in Ray Allen. if the Bulls have their eyes set on Heinrick? he would be good from a defense and ball handling perspective but we need scoring and we need players to space the floor so people like wade can't play free saftey. Would love to watch the 1-2 pick in roll with Rose-Allen, let them blitz Rose with that match-up.
I would trade Deng for Melo. Deng is playing great but minus rose the bulls suck. We need a scorer hopefully Rip helps with this but he is really more of a role player as is Deng. Although I think they just ride it out this year and see what happens in the playoffs.
According to NBA Sports and 48 Minutes in Hell, James Anderson (Spurs but in D-League right now) has asked for a trade. That shows some chutzpah, seeing as he's only a second-year player. He's a slashing 6'6" scoring guard who wants to prove that he can score in the NBA like he did in college at OSU. Almost no way Thibs would bother testing and developing a gunner, but I wish he would. We could get Anderson cheap if we convinced him he'd get 20min/game. Of course, Bulls will wait on Rip instead.
http://www.okstate.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/anderson_james00.html
Not a good sign character wise when you cannot be successful with the Spurs