Monta Ellis is not worth Deng or Noah

I've seen several trade thread ideas where Monta Ellis ends up with the Bulls, there's Aggrey Sam's column suggesting we send out Joakim Noah, or there's this the Golden State Sam Smith suggesting we send out Luol Deng for him.

Both these ideas are horrifically stupid.


Let's examine Ellis's fit with the Bulls

He's a small guard, so you need deal with playing with a smaller backcourt.  When you have enough talent, that's not so bad though, and Ellis is certainly talented.

He's not a good shooter.   This year's 36% is his career best from beyond the three point line, and Golden State's open style of offense has historically helped raise their players three point percentages a bit. 

However, I don't trust Ellis to consistent improve the Bulls attack from beyond the arc.   It would be similar to adding another Deng level there point shooter to the team.  It wouldn't be terrible, but it wouldn't make anyone fear us.

Golden State wants to trade him because he can't play with Stephen Curry.   Curry's game naturally fits along side Ellis's much more so than Rose's does.   Curry can play off the ball with his shooting and will likely never be as ball dominating as Derrick Rose.  

Ellis, similar to Rose, is largely an on the ball player with great quickness who attacks the rim, draw fouls, and only shoots if he can't find a seem to the basket.  He's worse in terms of PG skills and a worse defender (IMO), but he's basically a small A guard (by A guard, I mean a guard who looks to score when he has the ball).

Overall, if we ignore what we give up in trade for a moment, Monta Ellis would solve our need for a secondary ball handler, secondary player who can take guys off the dribble, and attack the rim.  He could generate free throw attempts and score consistently.

However, he'd cause us to struggle to match up defensively, wouldn't improve floor spacing, and we would likely be unable to fully utilize his skills next to Derrick Rose.   His overall talent would improve the team, but we'd find it difficult to live up to the sum of our parts with Ellis/Rose being two of the parts because their games overlap too much.

So what do you give up for a guy like Ellis?

Similar to my idea about Ben Gordon, the Bulls should be looking to add talent.   If you bring on Ellis by subtracting a major talent, then you're not improving the team, because Ellis isn't likely to live up to his full potential here.

That isn't always bad, LeBron and Wade can't live up to their full individual potential next to each other either, but it's likely to end with championships anyway.  However, it is bad if you're giving up a major piece to get him.

If the Bulls can land Ellis through a combination of picks, expirings, and non guaranteeds then they should go for it.   Ellis isn't a perfect fit, but his overall talent upgrade would greatly improve the team if it doesn't come at a cost of significant talent from the roster.

The problem with that is Ellis is too valuable for Golden State to trade for such things.   Some other team will likely simply offer more.   I'd give up Korver + Bogans + Lucas + Pargo + our 2 #1s for Ellis, but I'm not sure that deal appeals to Golden State.

The Bulls can't be thinking about trading laterally

To win it all, the Bulls can't make a lateral trade and hope to get there.

When two teams trade, these are the following things that are at play.

1: Long term talent / potential
2: Short term talent
3: Long term salary savings
4: Short term salary savings

The Bulls need to add to categories one or two by giving up categories three or four.   That's how the Bulls can win a title.   They need to add talent.   Their existing talent fits together about as well as any talent will, so trying to trade equivalent talent from one player to the next is unable to get the job done.

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  • It's simple and a non-issue...

    If the Bulls' management wouldn't trade Noah or Deng for Melo, they aren't trading either of those guys for Monta Ellis. Let's not over-think it.

  • In reply to MrHappy:

    I'm sure they can'T even give up those guys for Howard. they're weird.

  • In reply to MrHappy:

    I am certain that they would have given up Deng.

  • In reply to MrHappy:

    I agree though both + picks for melo is a very different dynamic than 1 of them for ellis.

  • In reply to DougThonus:

    Bad news guys, ESPN is reporting that Philly and GS are discussing Ellis for Iggy straight up. Works cap wise and fits each teams needs better than staying put. I guess that the Bulls can't go after them both as I suggest below.

  • Good post. What we need is a return to sanity. In a lot of Bulls' fans minds what happened in the last two weeks completely overshadows what we did the previous 6 months. Granted, those last two weeks are the most important but you don't blow up the team like we're preparing for the "Summer of LeBron" again. Simply staying pat and allowing 1) Derrick to grow and 2) the team to grow together would improve the team. Then you make a few tweaks here and there to consolidate talent and make the top-8 a stronger playoff rotation and we're ready to go to war. This new era of players hopping from team to team has fans believing they're just the right trade away from a championship whn the fact is since 1980, only about 8 out of 30 organizations have won them. That's because stability in the organization builds consistent success. This team took it's lumps during the playoffs. Let them grow from it and take the next step.

  • Like I have said before, I think fans are getting desperate with their trade ideas that the Bulls could make. Monta Ellis is not the answer as a starter for the Bulls. And I agree that the Bulls can not trade their defensive starters in Deng or Noah not unless they are getting impact players in return. A backcourt of Ellis and Rose and you trade Noah or Deng with Boozer not wanting to play defense would be asking for major trouble on the defensive side of the floor. I also agree that if the Bulls can get Ellis or Gorden without giving up a starter then they should make the trade. I still would like for the Bulls to look at J.R. Smith cause this guy is a player that has talent. He's a bit of a loose cannon but I still say with the right team, he can be an impact player. And if Philly does decide to salary dump Iguodala the Bulls should go after him as well. If the Bulls can add these 2 players that might be just enough to get them to the championship level. Bulls have to forget about draft picks and salary. Use the 2 to their advantage and bring in the quality players to get past the Heat, cause more than likely... that will be the goal to get to the Finals.

  • In reply to Reese1:

    Agree with you here Reese. When you look around the league at the 2s that would be available I think JR might just be the best to have. I don't think we will be able to trade for him as Denver will just let him walk as they are going down the cheap young talent route but keeping cap space (a bit like what he bulls did last year) so JR doesn't fit their needs. The only issue is the next CBA; will it allow the Bulls to offer JR a contract that will appeal to him.

    As for Iggy; yes if he's an addition to our best 5 players then yes go for it if Philly really will be happy with salary dump and picks. I think Iggy is Luol mark 2 i.e. not a star but can be very valuable to a team with a star who needs a very solid 2-way guy.

    Of the 2 I actually think getting Iggy is more likely because of the unknowns of the next CBA but if the CBA does allow for a MLE type contract and Bulls can use it I would def go for JR. He has shown when focused he is a very good defender but he lacks the motivation to play D at a high level all the times. I believe playing on for a real contender would transform him; just as Z-Bo has beeen transformed by being in the right place.

  • In reply to Jersey66:

    I want no part of JR Smith ever, his personality does not fit on this Bulls team, and he is probably not starter material on anything but a bad team, basically a taller Ben Gordon with personality issues, although maybe he tries to play D once in a while.

    I probably lean toward Iggy myself, but Ellis is a more potent scorer, and I still am not convinced that Iggy is really a 2 guard, he looks better as a small forward. Except for his worse contract I would take Iggy over Deng straight up.

    If Iggy can be obtained as a salary dump, and Ellis can be obtained for Deng, then you have a lineup of

    Rose, Ellis, Iggy, Noah/Asik, Boozer/Taj.

    That seems much better offensively, and with Iggy being a much better athlete than Deng, is it any worse than the current roster.

    Against Miami we needed someone to put the ball in the hole in the last 4 minutes of the game, Ellis is probably more that guy than Iggy, is Iggy better than Deng in that regard, I do not really know, but we all know that Deng is not and never will be that guy.

    I've liked both of these guys for a while, wanted to trade Gordon for Ellis and Deng for Iggy. I would be in heaven if we got them both and only lost Deng or Boozer.

  • In reply to BigWay:

    I like our defense a lot more against Miami with iggy and deng than iggy and ellis. more shooting and more defense.

  • In reply to DougThonus:

    Our defense would be better with Deng and Iggy, but it is our 4rth quarter offensive that cost us the series. Ellis is the best offensive player of those 3 by a long shot.

  • In reply to Reese1:

    Doug...What's your opinion on the trade value of guys like Noah, Korver, Brewer after the deep run into the playoffs?
    Does it increase now(it should realistically)because they have performed in important games but also failed in some games which has happened to a lot of HOFers OR did it expose their shortcomings and they look bad compared to players like Ellis, Beasley, Brook Lopez etc.. who haven't even sniffed such a pressure situation to make an evaluation.
    What would a good GM do? If you compare Noah and Lopez....a lot of Bulls fans would pick Lopez because of his offense. But, is he valued more in GarPax's big board because of his potential?

  • In reply to Reese1:

    Monta ellis has almost the same number as Rose and u refuse to give up Noah just for Defense ?
    Thibs has shown us that he can make a defensive unit with any Roster so it doesn't matter if we loose Deng or Noah. Of course we lose some defense but we get what we need. With Ellis bulls would still a good defensive team with a better offense. Besides, who said monta ellis is bad defender ? 2.1 steal per game is bad defense for u ?

  • In reply to Reese1:

    I would have to think long and hard about moving Deng in an Ellis deal, but you just don't trade big for small so I would not do Noah. Boozer on the other hand, I would pay for the plane ticket myself.

    We have a desperate for a second major scorer, Deng is absolutely not it, we can probably make up for his defense and intangibles easier than we can make up for his inability to be a consistent reliable scorer. We need a guy that we can count on for 20+ and night, Rose needs that guy. For us 2 guard or small forward is where we need that. the 4 and 5 positions are our defensive anchors. I do not want Noah, Taj or Asik going anywhere, and I still want a vet like Thomas around.

    To get a bonafide NBA scorer in trade we will have to give up a significant asset. Not that PER is all that, but Deng in his supposedly "best season ever" had a per of 15.6, which means he is the average player at his position in his "best year ever"

    My sense is that everyone has now overated Deng as a result of this season, and I don't see it. He was more like the invisible man, because we had Boozer and Bogans to drive us nuts.

  • 1. This trade is one year too soon. We don't know what really Asik can do playing extended minutes and if he can get a decent offensive game. If he replicates this year and improves, I think we can trade Noah. Right now, Noah needs to be there. But that said, not many guys are blowing past Ellis and Rose but they are shooting over them and all we need is big men who can rebound if Rose/Ellis play.
    2. Ellis seems to be a "re-incarnation" of Ben Gordon in terms of his impact on the Bulls i.e. as a 6th man. If we have to give up Noah or Deng...we might as well as get Gordon for expiring deals. Although, the main thing is making the right pass/shot might be a big challenge for Gordon and Ellis might be better at it.
    3. GarPax will get killed if they trade Noah for Ellis now. When they supposedly refused to give him up for Melo a few months back and now they give him up for Ellis???it just doesn't make sense and I don't think this will happen unless they get back more in return other than Ellis.

  • In reply to schaumburgfan:

    Asik can do everything Noah does and even in a better way because IMO Asik is a better defenser that's why Thibs used to bench noah the 4th quarter of the ECF. So why have 2 noah in the roster whereas we need a scorer ? We must get rid of either Noah or Asik for a star.

  • In reply to schaumburgfan:

    ASik has his best games when he got extended minutes.

  • I like Monta Ellis, but in order to get him we would have to send someone significant back in return.

    Michael Beasley anyone? Maybe with the extra cap space we have, Omer/Taj + our two 1st rd picks could get him?

  • In reply to joeacook3:

    The Bulls don't need someone to chuck up shots, they need someone who will score efficiently on the chances they get and ideally play passable defense too. Beasley isn't the guy to target.

  • In reply to joeacook3:

    Agree. However, what if you broaden the trade to include Lee or Biedrins by dumping Boozer? I would consider this. Boozer, and his contract, is a liability IMO. Not really a "low post threat."You did see the playoffs, didn't you?

    Lee is younger, more durable. Can hit the 15 footer and rebounds well. Biedrins I think is the same age as Noah. Although he had a disappointing year, he still has lots of potential. Long, mobile, good rebounder, goods hands, can finish. Along with Ellis, adding Lee or Biedrins would make the Bulls a better team if we can dump Boozer. Those who believe Loozer will return to be a 20/10 guy are delusional IMO.

  • In reply to hgarbell:

    No..Biedrins please. He is worse than Asik on offense. One issue with Boozer which is not important is his contract. We are going to be above the cap anyhow. It is not like we will be able to sign a big time FA. His contract is not going to make an impact.

    Rose will get killed with Biedrins. We will regress as a team getting GS players and kicking out tougher players like Noah and Deng. We should just stop seeing Boozer as the second option on the team and look at him as one of the top 8 guys on the team.

  • In reply to schaumburgfan:

    Biedrins is not worse than Asik on offense. A career 60% shooter. Also, 8 RPGs in 24 minutes. Bad FT shooter though. Correct, he is not as good as Noah but Ellis and Biedrins are preferable to Deng/Noah and Boozer IMO.

  • In reply to hgarbell:

    +100

  • In reply to schaumburgfan:

    Deng and Iggy swap >>>>>
    http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=3bropyj then trade expirings and a pick for OJ Mayo.

    Rose/Watson
    Mayo/Brewer
    Iggy/Korver
    Boozer/Taj
    Noah/Asik

    Now this team can compete with the Heat!

  • In reply to calle3:

    I like it but only if you could pull off both parts. If you swap Deng straight for Iggy but can't also get a decent SG (i.e. Mayo, JR Smith, etc.), it still leaves us with a hole at the 2 and Deng is a better 3pt shooter than Iggy so you might as well just do nothing. If they could pull off both it would definitely be worth it.

  • In reply to kayak0109:

    exactly imo Deng is a better player than Iggy !!

  • In reply to deewaves:

    I'll take Iggy. As I said above get Iggy for expirings and picks, get Ellis for Deng and whatever parts it takes.

    Rose, Ellis, Iggy, Noah/Asik, Boozer/Taj

    Maybe we could make the GS trade bigger, Deng and Boozer for Ellis and Lee.

  • In reply to BigWay:

    Deng and boozer for Ellis and Lee ? do u think warriors are that dumb ? Lee is better than Boozer and Ellis is better than deng so why would they do that trade ?

  • In reply to kayak0109:

    Iggy is waaayyyy better than Deng. He can dribble, more athletic, can create for others, and run a fast break. Deng can't do any of that. Rose needs a running mate, Iggy is better suited for this team.

  • In reply to calle3:

    look stats, iggy isn't a real scorer, he never behave like a leader in philly that's why he is criticized over there. Deng is better scorer and a better rebounder than iggy. iggy doesn't play with any big scorer but he only scores 14 points a game. that's poor !

  • In reply to deewaves:

    Well since u wanna bring up stats. Iggy's PER is higher than Deng's, 17, and it was a down year for him. Someone said this already but Deng had a great year, probably the best he could do, but his PER was a whopping 15. Therefore Iggy > Deng. I was Deng hater before this season and i still am...he sucks

  • In reply to calle3:

    I'm also a deng hater but trust me, Iggy isn't better. At least deng can bring 18 ppg and rebounds !i'd trade deng for a star, i'd give up deng for ellis without hesitating ! But deng for Iggy makes no-sense. it is even a lost. can iggy defend on 4 or shot 3 pts ?

  • In reply to deewaves:

    Deng can't consistently hit 3 pointers either and he doesn't defend 4s anyway. Can Deng do this >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5pXSAr7-pA&feature=fvsr Nope!

  • In reply to calle3:

    Did they introduce a rule where a monster dunk is worth more than the 2 points Deng gets from his boring layups? Otherwise who gives a crap if Iggy has more spectacular dunks.

  • In reply to DontLetsStart:

    looooooooll.+1000. lmao
    Iggy does the show but it doesn't make win !

  • In reply to DontLetsStart:

    Its not about the dunk. Deng can't get to the lane like Iggy can. He can't drive from the 3pt line to the hoop, he's too slow and can't dribble. Iggy can create for others, Luol cannot.

  • In reply to calle3:

    And i feel like we weren't athletic to overcome Miami's defense.

  • In reply to calle3:

    PER weights rebounding pretty heavily and Deng was not needed to do that as much as Noah/Boozer/Asik/Gibson did a very good job on the boards.

  • In reply to calle3:

    I live in the SF bay area, and have watched Monta Ellis for the last few years. He is a legit scorer, and while small, has an amazing leaping ability that makes up for his smaller size against larger players.

    I would certainly trade Deng for Ellis straight up (do not include Asik), but not Noah. Ellis will give you 10+ points per game more than Deng, and Taj could step into Deng's position. Noah is too valuable.

  • In reply to MarkOlberding:

    +1000 ! 10 ppg more is a lot. for sure we lost some D but generally we end up better !

  • In reply to MarkOlberding:

    I'd be on board with Ellis for Deng straight up. I'd miss Deng's defense and rebounding but the Bulls forward rotation along with Ellis' scoring could absorb Deng's loss. Brewer can't defend 4's as well as Deng, but he could guard 1's, 2's and 3's. Taj could play a little 3 as well. The Bulls would still be one of the best rebounding teams in the league.

  • In reply to MarkOlberding:

    Thank you, I have been saying that for years. Ellis is better than either Deng or Ben Gordon ever were.

  • In reply to MarkOlberding:

    I doubt that Taj can guard small forwards on a regular basis, but I would actually like to see if he could.

  • In reply to calle3:

    I'm really tired of bulls fans reactions. Finally what do u want ? u always complain because Rose doesn't have help and when it comes to improve the team, u always have a reason to refuse the trade. Kobe ? Garnett ? gasol ? Melo ? and now Ellis !. What's wrong with you guys ? since when Monta ellis isn't a good shooter ?

    Monta ellis is good defender, a passer, a good ball handler, a driver , someone who can put the pressure off Rose. What do u want more from him ? just a lil bit more size ? ok he isn'T tall but he would help a lot. Brewer defended on lebron during the ECF despite the fact lebron james is much taller. Defense isn't only about size !! if u can't give up noah (a player benched the fourth quarters of playoffs) for what u really need then how do want to improve this team ?

    I'm sure if we have the occasion to deal for Howard, most of u will refuse to give up Noah or deng or bogans ... awful !

  • In reply to deewaves:

    None or the guys you mentioned were really obtainable for the Bulls. Having said that, I agree with you on Ellis. He is a dynamic scorer, and is active on the defensive end. If you got Wright from them as well, that's a huge bonus, as he is a long versitile 2 way guy who can shoot 3 balls with the best of them.

  • In reply to ChiRy:

    According to me, to win a championship u need at least 2 stars. It's a rule who doesn't have exceptions ! That's why Nowiztki has never won a title because he is alone. That's why Lebron didn't win a title in cleveland. that's why Rose didn'T win this year ! No matters what good players u have around, u need a star next to u ! In playoffs, the stars are always double-teamed and that's why it needed 2 stars to really bother the opponents.

    In chicago, we thought Boozer was a star but apparently he isn't. He didn't help Rose, he didn'T shown up !

    My point is if the bulls want to win a title next year they need to trade not for a simple SG (smith,mayo, courtney ...) but for a star !! And to get a star u'll have to give up a good pieces. And since bulls fans and management aren't ready to give up Noah or Deng, there'S no HOPE for next year !

  • In reply to deewaves:

    Are you saying Ellis is that star? If so, you I might as well ignore the rest of your posts!

  • In reply to ChiRy:

    If Wright could be in the deal for only extra picks and not another top front court player(other than Boozer) I am on board.

  • In reply to deewaves:

    If Ellis was at Wade's level...yeah we should get him for Deng/Noah. But, basically he is not a top 5 player to gut the team and again start try to refill those holes.
    Don't go off on Melo now...we don't know exactly what happened about Melo coming to Chicago. It seemed like we never had a chance with Melo.
    None of these players(Ellis, Noah, Deng) are top 10 players other than exchanging some pieces and filling one hole while opening another one.

  • In reply to schaumburgfan:

    Ellis can score as well as Wade. (24 and 25 ppg)
    Ellis is as a good passer as Wade.(5.6 amd 4.6 ast)
    Ellis is as undersized as Wade. (6-3 and 6-4)
    Ellis is as good in defense as Wade.(2.1 and 1.8 stl)

    Im not saying saying ellis is better than wade but there isnt much difference between them! you guys always have a reason(chemestry, size, defense, behavior ...) when its come to trade. look what i replied to Chiry !

  • In reply to deewaves:

    Are u seriously comparing Wade and Ellis. Ellis is good and might become better but look at how he is faring now with a player who is a better shooter than Rose.
    I am not saying Ellis is not worth it but it is not just that. Honestly, the Bulls need a very versatile player at some other position other than PG for them to win a c'ship. IMO, adding Ellis and removing Deng/Noah will lead to similar problems of exiting ECF or earlier.

  • In reply to schaumburgfan:

    of couse we lost some D by giving up Noah/Deng but Thibs has proven us he can make a defensive team with any roster so it doesnt matter. It's the principle of a trade : lose something to earn another one! that's the way it is. We lose some D and size if Deng leaves but our offense will be much better with ellis and we still a defensive team.

    Most of people don't like the fact ellis and rose are an undersized backcourt. but do u remember how much we liked when Rose and hinrich were on the flour ? Guess what, Ellis has the same size as hinrich, defends and passes as well as him and moreover he can explode in scoring !

  • In reply to deewaves:

    No..not really. The biggest advantage Miami has is their versatility on defense. That's why Bibby is not there at the end. When somebody gets switched onto a different guy, they can still realistically stay with that new guy which is what Noah does like staying with LeBron or Wade. That's why Noah is so under-rated on defense. His offense sucked in the playoffs but he has value in this league for more than a Monta Ellis. And all the stats you give are not worth anything in the playoffs against an elite team especially coming from a GS offense. Look at CJ who couldn't make consistent plays in the playoffs for even a few minutes.

  • In reply to schaumburgfan:

    agreed but the thing is our defense is already great. we can't be any better in D. we got eliminated because we didn't have another scorer than Rose. so we need to get that scorer, it will cost deng or noah but if it's a star, we will end up better !

  • In reply to deewaves:

    Dude yea, our defense is good and maybe it can't get better... But it can definitely get WORSE. You are talking about bouncing our two best defenders who also average a total of 28 ppg for ONE player who isn't even a great defender

  • In reply to jgingeri:

    I know defense isn't only steals. but let me tell you Ellis averages 2.1 steals per game. It means nonetheless something. He isn't a bad defender !

  • In reply to deewaves:

    When you guys are saying Noah/Deng are you saying either or both? You can't be saying both. And while I'd do a Deng trade for Ellis straight up, I wouldn't trade Noah straight up for Ellis unless I had inside information that Noah's thumb won't ever get right. We could absorb the loss of Deng for Ellis, but we couldn't absorb the loss of Noah for Ellis straight up.

  • In reply to magestew:

    not both. i'm not stupid lol. just one of them, deng or noah !!Why couldn't u give up noah for ellis? Asik can do his job even in a better way. Asik is better defender than noah.

  • In reply to deewaves:

    No offense lol! Just wanted to be sure. I'm not yet sold on Asik being an adequate replacement for Noah. I need a bigger sample of work form him. If I was as convinced as you about Asik then I'd agree.

  • In reply to magestew:

    we need Noah and Asik, as Noah is slightly undersized, Asik is a legitimate 7 footer and an above average athlete for his size.

  • In reply to magestew:

    Correct, Deng yes, Noah no. I've suggested Deng for Ellis for 2 years now, before that it was Gordon for Ellis for me.

  • In reply to deewaves:

    Uhhh...Hinrich defends better than Ellis. This isn't close. Quit using steals-per-game as your only judgment of defensive capability.

  • In reply to ironsam:

    i'm talking about the fact our offense will be a lot better like when hinrich was there since Ellis can play PG ! besides who said ellis is bad defender ? Why do u think everybody but chicago player is a bad defender ?

  • In reply to deewaves:

    Let's not forget that while Derrick rose is an outstanding player and absolute superstar..he isn't the most efficient offensive weapon. Roses value is dependent on the teams defensive ability. Rose doesnt have the offensive prowess to carry a defensively mediocre team to a title. The only option for improvement is to get better on offense without sacrificing defense or to get better offensively and defensively. Sure, bring in Ellis, I can guarantee you we won't be holding the heat to 80 some points without deng or Noah, can you really tell me Ellis has the clutch playoff scoring ability to make up for that extra 6 points Miami has in the final minutes?

  • In reply to jgingeri:

    Now that Thibs has incorporated his defensive schemes into this group of players, I'd like to seem them put a similar effort in dealing with their offensive schemes. That's a team thing too that I think has lots of room for improvement.

  • In reply to ironsam:

    I expect the D to get even better than this year as the team gains continuity and experience within the system...but that changes with the loss of either Noah or Deng. Even if the incoming player is a solid defender, they'll be a year behind the learning curve and will lack continuity. SG is the only starter position we should be changing, with boozer and taj likely splitting time next year. Offensively thibs has the responsibility to improve our repertoire of plays and tactics, def agree.

  • In reply to ironsam:

    I think schemes are oversold, most coaches don't actually make much of a difference to the way players perform, the way they improve their offense is play at a faster pace or play more offensive lineups. The Bulls got to where they are defensively by sacrificing offense, both by playing slow down ball and by allocating a large percentage of the team's minutes to below average offensive players.

    There's no easy solution to improve the offense while keeping the same defense, short of getting better players.

  • In reply to ironsam:

    I would be sad to see the Turkish Hammer go, but if getting rid of him and Kyle Korver meant bringing in Kevin Martin, it might ease the pain:

    http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=3vhgfp3

    Again, trading Asik would suck, but would he might make Houston do this? Looks like they could use a center that knows what he's doing and has legs.

  • In reply to ironsam:

    are serious ? do u think asik and korver are enough to get Kevin martin ?

  • In reply to deewaves:

    Throw in some of our picks and it could be appealing to Houston. Crazier things have happened, e.g. Memphis trading Pau Gasol for Kwame Brown, Aaron McKie and the hope that Marc Gasol would be very good (which he has turned out to be).

  • In reply to deewaves:

    Well I guess it's kind of related ... Mark Jackson the Warriors coach now, wants to change the team into a defense first unit, you'd think that means one of the two out of Curry/Ellis will go. And given he seems to have been brought on to coach Curry into being more of a prototypical point guard, I'm guessing it's Ellis.

    Also, Mark Jackson is coaching which means he's no longer on TV! No more listening to him! Someone get JVG a coaching job and the NBA broadcasts will be awesome next year!

  • In reply to DontLetsStart:

    Woohooo!!! I was tired of Jackson's commentary after hearing about a 1/2 hour of him. He says the same exact type of thing over and over and offers very little insight. There's also something about how he says some that just gets really repetitive/annoying.

  • In reply to ironsam:

    He does sound really awkward at multiple points in each broadcast. I wonder who will replace him? Kerr? Reggie?....prob Reggie to go w van gundy for reasons I won't say here

  • In reply to schaumburgfan:

    So Doug, I know we are trying to sign a new starting SG but do you think it would be possible for the Bulls to sign RIP for the vet min if he gets bought out and still get someone like smith?

    Rose/Watson
    Rip/Smith
    Deng/Brewer/Korver
    Boozer/Taj
    Noah/Asik

  • In reply to 1096ballenf:

    Unfortunately Rip stands for R.I.P. now, as in he's the carcass of the player he once was. If he'll come for the minimum and be a bench player then sure, but I don't think he's a starter quality guy any more. But from the trade deadline reports he doesn't want to get bought out anyway, he wants every cent he's owed on his contract.

  • In reply to DontLetsStart:

    I'd rather rip myself a new asshole than see Hamilton in a Bulls uni.

  • In reply to deewaves:

    Steals per game does not mean someone is a good defender...cmon now

  • In reply to jgingeri:

    c'mon man. 2.1 steals per game isn'T nothing ! he is good but he isn't neither a bad defender.

  • In reply to deewaves:

    I'm sure it's not the popular opinion, but if push came to shove I'd give up Rose for Howard, so don't tell me I wouldn't give up Deng. Howard is the second best player in the league after LeBron, you get him if you can. Ellis isn't nearly in the same class, so you have to be more cautious.

    Anyway what I want isn't to shake up the team, it's to add one piece to a team that's already good. The Bulls don't need an offensive star, they need a guy who will take and make good shots within the system. I'm thinking someone who averages maybe 12 a game, hits close to 40% from three, and plays decent defense.

    That's really all the Bulls need. If they had someone who was a bit more of a scorer than Bogans, and Rose doesn't play like crap, and Noah/Boozer get healthy, they beat Miami. Where as you go trading core players and end up with an entirely new team next year then there's no telling what the result will be. I know the regular season seems a long time ago after a bad playoff loss but you have to remember that the Bulls got the best record in the league for a reason. They're not far away, there's no need to make a major move unless you're clearly winning the deal.

  • In reply to DontLetsStart:

    no precisely, bulls need more than a simple SG wh shot the ball better than bogans. here is what i post above :
    According to me, to win a championship u need at least 2 stars. It's a rule who doesn't have exceptions ! That's why Nowiztki has never won a title because he is alone. That's why Lebron didn't win a title in cleveland. that's why Rose didn'T win this year ! No matters what good players u have around, u need a star next to u ! In playoffs, the stars are always double-teamed and that's why it needed 2 stars to really bother the opponents.
    In chicago, we thought Boozer was a star but apparently he isn't. He didn't help Rose, he didn'T shown up !
    My point is if the bulls want to win a title next year they need to trade not for a simple SG (smith,mayo, courtney ...) but for a star !! And to get a star u'll have to give up a good pieces. And since bulls fans and management aren't ready to give up Noah or Deng, there'S no HOPE for next year !

  • In reply to deewaves:

    There's plenty of hope, you're talking like this is a bad team. 62 wins is a damn good team, there's been 41 teams in the history of the NBA that have won that many games, ie there's not even a team that wins that many games every year. This isn't a team that's a long way away, it'd be foolish to burn it to the ground in panic over a playoff loss right now.

    I'm all for getting a star if one's available, but I don't see how anyone can say Ellis is a star. He has zero all-star game appearances, and hasn't even had any serious "oh he deserved it over guy X" conversation like Deng and Noah have at times. The only way you can think he's a star is his PPG averages, inflated by taking a lot of shots on a bad, fast paced team.

    He's a good player but he's not the quality of guy you make major changes for. You especially don't do it when how he fits is a huge question mark given he's a ball dominant guard just like Rose. I'm in full agreement with Doug here, if you can get him cheap then I'd go get him, but if you're paying market price (or more, IMO Deng and Noah's value after this season is higher than Ellis) then no thanks.

  • In reply to DontLetsStart:

    Bulls are a damn good team during the regular season but in playoffs all the opponents play Defense and u'll have to step up offensively to survive. and that's where bulls failed. We are a very good team during the regular season like cleveland used to be or 2007 dallas mavericks but in playoffs Rose, Lebron and nowiztki were alone. good role players around them weren't enough, they needed another star !

    Altough he haven't appeared yet in an allstar game, Ellis is a star. don't get me wrong he deserve more to get there than Lu or Noah ! what'S a star ? several players can score(like deng,terry, butler, jamison, stuckeY) but a star is someone who can change the course of a game, who shows up during clucth time. and Monta does it !

  • In reply to deewaves:

    The Bulls were a few better shots from (or foul calls for) Derrick Rose from being 3-2 up on the Heat. Even with Boozer playing like crap they were in the series.

    People like to make narratives about how the playoffs are different but they're really not. They're just shorter, so bad things can happen to good teams. Flip a coin and if it comes up 4-1 in favour of heads you don't immediately assume it's a weighted coin, yet two fairly evenly matched teams meet in the playoffs and people want to tell you how much better the team that wins 4-1 is.

  • In reply to DontLetsStart:

    i agree with u !heat won game 5 thanks to the luck ! and we could have won game 4 if it wasnt stupid erros !
    however is was obvious that we needed a real scorer next to rose.

  • In reply to deewaves:

    First of all if we can get Monta Ellis for Deng hell yes I'd do it. You're talking 25 ppg the last two years on .450 from the field with .350 three point shooting. I'll take that all day long. And decent wings/SF's are the most plentiful position in the NBA IMO.

    Now on to the other dilemma besides SG, Carlos. I remember all the warnings and misgivings about Boozer first from Doug, and then post singing from Utah fans. They apparently were right. Of course that was about injuries and defense not shooting in the low 40's at 12ppg in the playoffs. You just have to wonder if he's going to bounce back or become another Ben Wallace? Can we really get rid of his contract? That to me is the big question. If I could right now, I would.

    And how about the big payday for Joakim Noah? I wonder if a bad thumb can really be blamed for shooting .411 for the playoffs? Rose, Noah, and Deng all career quality field goal offensive players in the playoffs simultaneously bit the dust this year plummeting into the low 40's. I think Thib's attitude really wore down Rose and Noah. I hope I'm wrong. I know offensive talent was lacking as well, but still the way they failed to utilize Noah on lobs etc. the way they've done in previous playoffs? They certainly need a good offensive associate head coach/assistant similar to Thibs defensive co-coach role in Boston IMO.

    I don't believe the complete lack of agression with Noah was due to injuries. I just hope he didn't do too much partying with all that time off with the injuries. If I'm wrong on both counts then my aplogies to Jo. We will know next year that's for sure. I have faith in Derrick. And despite what I said I have faith in Jo. Thibs and Boozer not so much.

    Oh, and repeating if I could get Monta Ellis I would do it in a heartbeat. The defense will work with the back line of Noah, Taj, and Asik if we have the offenisve energy/intimidation of a second scoring star. The two do correlate IMO. If the Bulls can dump Boozer(or even if not), but can pick up a scoring star like Monta Ellie they will be in business provided somebody besides Thibs runs the offense, and he quits calling play by play from the coaches box. And quits cussing out his players(Rose and Noah).

  • In reply to MikeKeane:

    Not to go away from the Monta Ellis topic but Noah's regression was what made Boozer's inadequacies more bigger. He seems to have completely lost his confidence in his jumper or Thibs told him not to take it. That was one of the biggest reasons for a lot of our offensive problems because teams left him all alone most of the time concentrating their focus on Rose and Boozer.
    The big question is if Noah's offense doesn't come back next year...does his trade value go down or stay the same? Remember, Melo was the exchange price for Noah in Dec/Jan. Now, people are talking about Ellis for Noah. If his offense keeps the same....his value will go towards the Anderson Varejao/Andres Biedrins levels which is not a great investment for the Bulls.

  • In reply to schaumburgfan:

    his trade value won't defenitively go down. Everybody knows Noah isn't an offensive option. If a team wants noah it is because of his rebounds, defense and energy. Only chicago bulls think Noah is an offensive option that'S why they pay him 13 million a year and refused to trade him for Melo. But come back on earth, Noah is just a defender. don'T never expect him to score more than 15 ppg.

  • In reply to schaumburgfan:

    Hey Schaum and deewaves I agree with a lot of your points. Dwaves, as for Noah not being an offensive player he sure looked that way this post season for sure. I just don't remember Rodman every averaging 15 ppg in the playoffs the way Joakim did last year. And Schaum people keep talking about Jo's jumper, but to me what was most viable in his offensive game was the driving left and right away hand layups/hooks they call them because it's the away hand. Those shots in the first month of the season where he averaged 15ppg were very intriguing. Basically he was hitting them every time/it was unstoppable. Plus he was doing spin moves for dunks, jumpers and close up/post hooks. Jo's collapse after shooting over .500 for his career, and career playoffs was just baffling. If it was all injury we will know next year/he should bounce back. I just hope he didn't get discouraged with his injuries or Thibs chewing his ass, and then started partying too much. But again we will know if he's back next year. I also thought he looked like he lost some of his muscle during the year he put on over the summer. If he comes back to pillar of the franchise Jo or remains at playoffs suck Jo that is a huge question mark.

  • In reply to schaumburgfan:

    Boozer is the reason for Noah's regression. He(Noah) had to carry that 268 lb. sack of shit around nearly every minute that he played.

  • In reply to MikeKeane:

    agree with u most of all about Ellis and Boozer ! But what you guys made you think noah can be scorer ? what make you think Asik could be one ? c'mon. get real asik and noah are the defenition of a defender. They are superdefender and super-rebounder but nothing'else. They are like mutombo, ben wallace, camby or rodman. Why do count on them in scoring ?
    They are good player but i don't expect anything from them at the offensive end !!

  • In reply to deewaves:

    You do realize passing, offensive rebounding, and tip ins are all at the offensive end of the floor...right?

  • In reply to jgingeri:

    which center doesn't make put back ?

  • In reply to deewaves:

    And if your theory on game changers, clutch performers and playoffs is true, why do you want Ellis? I suppose his 8 PPG on 39% shooting in the only playoff run he's ever seen convinced you?

  • In reply to DontLetsStart:

    he was a sohphomore and played only 21 min a game.

  • In reply to deewaves:

    Which clutch game has Monta Ellis shown up in? Again, don't mis-understand...Noah is not what we give up for Ellis. And to your point, Thibs's defense is not all that great defending elite teams in crucial situations if you don't have the right players. Asik is useless on offense and is ok in situational plays and can't even make Free Throws.

  • In reply to schaumburgfan:

    at the end of day, defense is motivation, determination and agressivenss ! for sur Noah is very good but can be replaced. Don'T overrated Noah.. Thibs knows his real value that's why he benched him the 4th quarters of the ECF.

  • In reply to deewaves:

    Oh ya? How many clutch time playoff games has monta Ellis played in? Oh thats right....

  • In reply to DontLetsStart:

    If we do not make a major move, we will not win 62 games next year.

  • In reply to deewaves:

    Detroit Pistons...

  • In reply to ironsam:

    let me remind u, that year (2004) all the pistons roster made allstar game. In 2004, billups and sheed wallace were true allstars !

  • In reply to deewaves:

    Ben Wallace was the only Piston to make the all-star game in 2004.

  • In reply to deewaves:

    Bogans/Deng for Wright/Ellis... It works... Although it may not after this...

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=6633355

  • In reply to DontLetsStart:

    I don't know what you consider a star, but we need a bonafide 20+ppg scorer. He has to be a better offensive player than Deng, and the Boozer that we ended up with, so I think that he has to be pretty darn close to being a star.

  • In reply to deewaves:

    I don't think Noah should be involved in any trade that doesn't bring a solid big back. Even when 100%, Noah isn't a big time scorer, but when he's 100% his all-around game of defense, rebounding, passing, and running the floor makes him a star-level impact player even if his ppg is less than pedestrian. You can't score the ball without possession of it, and Noah gets you a LOT of possessions with his defense and rebounding. You can't trade him without getting in return a big that can board in or near double figures and hold his own defensively. That's the anchor to Thibs' defense.

  • In reply to magestew:

    AMEN .. JESUS FINALLY SOMEONE SPEAKS THE TRUTH.

  • In reply to jgingeri:

    Seconded. Lots of idiotic ideas flowing around here.

  • In reply to magestew:

    Especially true when he doesn't have that 268lb piano(Boozer) on his back

  • In reply to hgarbell:

    Andre Miller has a team option (which Portland may or may not pick up), I think he would be a great option to back up Derrick. He is a great change of pace, he shoots a good percentage from the field (but oddly not from 3?), he gets everyone else involved and most importantly...we need to block him from the cHeats.

    For a stretch 4 how about AK 47, I mean as long as we are pillaging from the Jazz and if we can get rid of Booz, I'd want AK. Good defender, good enough shooter from 3 to keep the D honest, 1 less person to pillage rebounds from Jo Noah. He'd fit.

  • In reply to nolebron:

    Miller sees himself as a starter, not accepting 10 minutes a game.

  • In reply to hgarbell:

    Someone on the Bleacher Report came up with this 3 way trade scenario and I actually like it! It's a win-win for every team.

    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=3h66c2w

  • In reply to joeacook3:

    Why in the world would the Nets send out Lopez and bring in Boozer? Remember, money is no object to the new owner.

  • In reply to hgarbell:

    Because Boozer can rebound and Lopez can't, and Williams and Boozer killed the pick and roll...

  • In reply to RC360:

    Lopez's career is on the rise. A clutch scorer. Boozer's is declining. A choke artist come play-off time.

    Lopez is a good shot-blocker, Boozer plays below the rim and is also a lazy and slow defender. No GM would make this deal.

  • In reply to RC360:

    I would definitely like Ellis on the Bulls, but I agree that dealing Deng, for sure, and Noah, most likely, wouldn't take the team any further. If you could nab him for the expirings and pics scenario, you'd do that, but that's not particularly realistic.

  • In reply to joeacook3:

    The Nets are not trading Lopez unless they get a better center back, Howard or Bynum.

    I would pay to trade Boozer to them for Humphries, even though Humphries is in line for a big new contract. Doubt that the Nets would even consider it, unless D Will made them do it because he loves Boozer.

  • In reply to hgarbell:

    AK 47, Beidrins, or Beasley.... these are trades that would not help the Bulls. Athletes are needed for this Bulls team. Athletes that know how to score from the perimeter. Athletes that can create their own shot. Kirelinko, Bradley, or Beidrins are not championship caliber IMO. Again, if the Bulls can pick Iguodalaand J.R. Smith, or for bench players Gordan or Monta Ellis, they will have some pretty good perimeter scorers.

  • In reply to Reese1:

    and I'm all in for getting rid of Boozer, I just don't think it will happen after his sup par season and disappointing playoff showing. If the Bulls can find a team to take him and his contract for something descent in return, the Bulls should definitely make the trade, cause Boozer at his age will not get any better.

  • In reply to Reese1:

    AK47 is a free agent, no trade necessary, assuming he takes the MLE.

  • In reply to Reese1:

    Who do the Bulls need to please?

    Doug, appreciate your article as always.

    It's hard (and fun) trying to guess what Chicago Bulls management will do to improve the team during the off season.

    In my opinion, management needs to please only one player: Rose.

    There's a lot of uncertainty this off-season. We still don't know what a healthy Boozer-Noah tandem looks like. We don't know if Asik will develop a "hopeful" inside offensive game. We don't know if we can affordably improve at SG.

    I just believe management needs to keep one person happy and motivated: Derrick Rose. We can tell ourselves that Rose will never leave Chicago. But I'm sure Cleveland fans said the same thing about Ohio native LeBron James.

    Here's hoping Bulls management finds a player that alleviates the heavy load that Derrick Rose carries every game.

  • In reply to rkraneis:

    1. I hope GarPax with Thibs's extra love on the current roster don't fall prey to the over-achieving this roster did. Almost every national expert opined that this was an overachieving roster who played hard. They need to consolidate some talent as Doug keeps writing
    2. If I were GarPax, I would keep trying for Igoudala. Philly has Jrue Holliday, Evan Turner and Lou Williams who all need the ball in their hands very much unlike the Bulls. Plus, he wants out and they want to dump his salary. The Bulls need Igoudala and some MLE kind of player like JR Smith to play depending on the match-up. No other team has a good player like Igoudala(size and speed) whom they want to kind of dump which is what exactly the Bulls need. He becomes a much better shooter with Rose around him.

  • In reply to rkraneis:

    Two deals:

    To Chi: A. Harrington, R. Felton, K. Koufos
    To DEN: C. Boozer, R. Brewer, $3M, Miami's #1
    This works because of a Trade Exception Denver has.

    Then

    To Chi: Howard, Turkgoulu
    To Orl: Non-Guaranteed's, Noah, Felton, Koufos, Korver, Charlotte's #1 and $3M

    Lineup:
    1: Rose/Watson
    2: Bogans (Resigned after waived by ORL)/Draft Pick?
    3: Deng/Turk
    4: Gibson/Harrington/K. Thomas
    5: Howard/Asik

    Maybe we can sign J. Kapono at the veterans' exception (assuming it still exists in the new CBA) or we could get lucky and R. Allen will opt out and sign with us for the MLE.

  • In reply to nolebron:

    Orlando is not even considering moving Howard until the new CBA is worked out. They may get a franchise tag to keep Howard.

  • In reply to hgarbell:

    It has crossed my ming all season long if we would be better off with Lee than we are with Boozer. My sense is that Lee tries to play D even if he fails, Boozer just doesn't give a crap about even trying.

  • In reply to joeacook3:

    Insanity.

  • In reply to joeacook3:

    Brought to you by Michael Beasley.

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