Bulls in the mix for Monta Ellis

Per Tim Kawakami:

Warriors execs have apparently been told that Ellis would like to
stay in the Bay Area, but that if they're going to trade him, he's
looking to go to a contending team that might be a great scorer away
from a title run.

I'm told Chicago very much is at the top of that theoretical Ellis
list, though it's obvious that the Warriors are not limiting their
discussions to just one or two teams.

It's also difficult to find a workable combination of Bulls players
that would fit an Ellis deal, unless Chicago is willing to move Luol
Deng, which seems, at this point, unlikely.

If the Warriors want talent back, then I think the Bulls would need a three team deal where they send expirings/picks to a team that offers up the talent and then the Bulls get Ellis.

If Philly were to prefer expirings/picks to Ellis, a three team where they send Iguodala to Golden State, we send picks / epxirings to them, and we get Ellis would work.

Granted, in this situation, I'd prefer Iguodala, but if Bulls management prefers Ellis then it's workable.   The Bulls also could part with some picks and either Asik or Gibson to help Golden State shore up it's front court defense.  

Would that be enough?   I don't know.   Would I want to do it anyway?   Probably not until I'd explored other avenues of trading for a shooting guard. 

The best news out of this perhaps is that Monta Ellis has the Bulls high on his list.  High caliber players view the team as merely a piece away.

Comments

Leave a comment
  • That's the benefit of a 62 win season, Rose winning the MVP, Thibs winning COY, getting to the ECF. Now, an almost all-star wants to come to the Bulls. The Bulls better strike now when the opportunity presents itself.

  • In reply to schaumburgfan:

    exactly. get the talent and think later. If we trade deng for ellis, we could draft a SF just to use his size and defense like James johnson. Of course we something once deng is gone but what we get back is much more important.

  • In reply to deewaves:

    Not really. I know you think Deng and Noah can be easily replaced. James Johnson just had the looks of a SF but was not played by both Vinny or Thibs. It is not easy to get somebody like Deng. But, before you go off that we have to give up something to get something...that's where the catch is. What position is easy to fill in the next couple of years and who is more valuable to the team? That's where GarPax get their money.
    We undervalue Deng but what he and Noah is more difficult to do than anything else i.e. playing without the ball. Look at LeBron now. He is struggling to play without the ball for sometime. Deng plays at a high level without the ball not just like an average player. Off-course, he has a lot of limitations.
    Honestly, the best deal would be to give up Taj as much as we love him.

  • In reply to schaumburgfan:

    Stop overrating Deng please...he can be replaced

  • In reply to calle3:

    Since by definition he is average, 15.6 per how hard can it be to replace him. He has gone from overated to hated to overated again.

  • In reply to BigWay:

    PER is the final say in all personnel decisions!

  • In reply to ironsam:

    of course it isn't it is just a usable measuring stick.

  • In reply to BigWay:

    Monta Ellis's career PER is 16.8, Luol Deng's is 16.2.

    Deng is drastically better at defense which doesn't really show up in PER, and he plays off the ball rather than on it.

    Deng can be replaced, and I'd be willing to move him for sure, but it should be for a clear upgrade.

    Ellis brings different skills, but I don't think the team is necessarily upgraded with an Ellis/Deng swap. They now have large defensive questions and have to wonder how the ball is going to move with two small guards who both need teh ball in their hands.

  • In reply to DougThonus:

    do you ryan anderson of magic and kevin lobe have better PERs than KG and kobe.
    I mean your PER doesn't mean nothing. According to PER, Rose isnt the among the best player of league ! omg. that's bullshit !

  • In reply to schaumburgfan:

    i like your idea pretty much of giving Taj instead of Deng. But I'd surprised to see warriors accepting that deal. They will ask more than Taj.

  • In reply to deewaves:

    defense is the most important that's why the Bulls try to keep Deng and give the warriors expiring players and pick if they want them and throw in maybe Bogans or Korver.

  • In reply to Reese1:

    Indeed.. getting rid of Deng for Ellis isn't going to get us a championship.. it might even be going backward.

  • I think the Bulls should go with the expiring players and picks, maybe Bogans or Korver if they will take him. Then Bulls use Asik in Philly deal to get Iguodala if the Sixers want him instead of Iggy.

  • In reply to Reese1:

    Maybe something is wrong with me but I just don't think this guy is what the Bulls need. Not a good fit. Good player but not what the Bulls need.

  • In reply to MarkEichenlaub:

    explain your point of view ! we need a sg, a ball handler, a scorer. Ellis can do all that things.

  • In reply to deewaves:

    Ellis isn't a real SG in the traditional sense that we need.

    HE's an undersized guy who scores via dominating the ball on rather pedestrian efficiency.

    He would add ball handling and shot creation though, and we do need those things. I'm not trying to totally bag the guy. His fit is dicey though, and there should be obvious red flags around it as well as the obvious benefits.

  • In reply to MarkEichenlaub:

    No that's not according to me cause I want the Bulls to try and get Iguodala and Ellis and keep Deng. If the warriors take expiring players draft picks and let's say Bogans or maybe another player for Ellis then the Bulls should make the trade. Then with Philly, if they want Asik cause its been reported they want a big man, the Bulls trade Asik for Iggy and whatever else that make the trade work. No starters from the Bulls and try to hold on to Gibson and Brewer

  • In reply to Reese1:

    If we could get both that would be ideal, but is it even possible? Salary wise I mean?

  • In reply to Reese1:

    Like most of you guys, I've gone back and forth about who I'd like to have as our 2 guard.

    I don't really like Ellis cause I don't think he fits this team. He's a good scorer but needs to have the ball in his hands and is a volume shooter.

    Iguodala is my favorite, but I don't know if the management is ready to bring in a guy making so much money with the uncertainty of the new CBA.

    So, IMO, GarPax will try upgrade the position giving up only our unguarateed contracts and picks. Basically I think they'll try to bring Mayo or Lee. If this doesn't work out, sign the FA possible (Richardson, Smith, Afflalo, ... ?).

    It's smart to keep Korver's, Watson's and Brewer's expiring deals until next trade deadline to make a big splash (knowing the rules of the new CBA), when lots of teams get desperate and are ready to rebuild.

    Plus, I really believe you have to keep the frontcourt intact. I think we have a championship caliber frontcourt in Noah, Booz, Gibson and Asik. Great deapth, great defense, great rebounding, young and versatile.

  • In reply to OnePointSeven:

    a volume shooter is exactly what bulls need. ok Ellis likes to dominate the ball but Rose need it to rest a little( he does so much for the team). Wade and Lebron are ball hoggers but are playing well together so why can'T ellis and Rose fit together ?

    i still don't get why most of people find iggy so good. imo he is overrated. the guy scores only 14 ppg whereas he doesn't play with any star, i mean he supposed to be the team leader.(he is criticized in philly). What is he going to do behind Rose, deng and boozer ? nothing ! he will be inefficient. He doesn't even have a reliable shoot.

  • In reply to deewaves:

    Iguodala did average 18-19pt/gm on 56%TS for a couple of years. He's a good offensive player and a really good playmaker. On top of that, his athleticism will do wonders on defense. Imagine all those Rose/Iguy fast breaks, that'd f...ing sweet! He pulls down 6 boards and dished 5 assts for his career.

    Plus he's very durable (missed a TOTAL of 21 games in 7 seasons!) and can play SF which will give Deng more time to rest (huge factor in the playoffs this year).

    Iguodala makes this team a top 3 championship favorite (assuming you trade him for say Korver, Watson, filler, picks).

  • In reply to OnePointSeven:

    He doesn't have a 3pt shot whereas we want someone to spread the floor for Rose. His 2pt shot isn't reliable. He more a driver than a shooter. OK he is a dunker and awesome to watch but highlights don't bring wins. All i mean, i rather trade for Ellis than for Iggy !

  • In reply to deewaves:

    Ellis's career three point shooting percentage is exactly 1% higher than Iguodala's. Why do you keep bringing up three point shooting?

  • In reply to OnePointSeven:

    We already are a top three championship favorite team. So you are saying Iguodala makes no difference.

  • In reply to adocarbog:

    loool

  • In reply to adocarbog:

    Doog, i don't know why you like Iggy so much. You seems to forget we have been lookimg for a shooter to spread the floor for Rose. Let me remind you Iggy doesn't have a 3pt shot (32% from downtown). Even Bogans does better.

  • In reply to deewaves:

    Ellis is a career 33% shooter. Let me remind you, he can't spread the floor either.

  • In reply to DougThonus:

    lol. Ellis is 36% this season whereas iggy is 33% and rarely attempts from downtown.

    http://www.nba.com/playerfile/monta_ellis/index.html

    http://www.nba.com/playerfile/andre_iguodala/career_stats.html

  • In reply to deewaves:

    You're comparing Ellis' 2011 numbers versus Iggy's career numbers? Dude cmon.

  • In reply to jgingeri:

    I'm talking about 3pts shooting,nothing else.

  • In reply to deewaves:

    Ellis is a career 33% three point shooter. He's not someone who will space the floor. Keith Bogans is a better shooter than Monta Ellis.

  • In reply to adocarbog:

    Guys, let's get real!! Iggy and Ellis are not the solution to our problems. We need people like Ray Allen, Marcus Thornton, OJ Mayo...That

  • In reply to adocarbog:

    Sorry...that is the type of player the Bulls need alongside Rose...

  • In reply to fsalomon:

    Ray Allen would be awesome except for the fact that he's old.

    Mayo would be a good fit.

    Thornton? He's like a poor man's Ben Gordon.

  • In reply to DougThonus:

    against us he seemed like a rich mans Ben Gordon, and he is taller than Gordon, and may actually be coached to try to play defense.

  • In reply to BigWay:

    That's just silly, Thornton has shown himself to be no where near the scorer or threat that Gordon has been in his career, and I haven't watched him a ton, but he's certainly a worse defender from the time I've seen him play.

  • In reply to DougThonus:

    Exacty...and affordable!

  • In reply to adocarbog:

    Okay now i know this is gonna be a looked as a big change up from our roster but would you guys do this trade?
    lets say Kyle Korver + C J Watson + Keith Bogans + enough picks and maybe Asik like you said for Andre Iggy
    and there has been "rumors" that Monte Ellis wants to come to Chicago and GS is willing to trade him somewhere and is interested in Deng. so a Deng for Monte Ellis Trade straight up
    so you move Iggy to SF and have a line up of
    1.Rose 2.Ellis 3.Iggy 4.Boozer 5.Noah would you guys do these trades?? i want an opinion

  • In reply to deezy90:

    I'd rather just trade for Iguodala and not get Ellis.

  • In reply to DougThonus:

    me too

  • In reply to UnstopaBull:

    Although if we could get them both without giving up a starter I would love to have Ellis or even Iggy coming in of the bench ala Jason Terry. Or we could go small with Rose, Ellis, Iggy, Deng and big of your choice

  • In reply to UnstopaBull:

    neither of those guys is coming off the bench and Deng isn't either. You can't have and do not need all three on one team.

  • In reply to DougThonus:

    That clearly means that you think Iggy is a full time 2 guard. What if his best position is small forward as I suspect.

    Would you rather have Ellis/Iggy, or Iggy/Deng. you are trading offense for defense. In this case you and I are both out of character, you seem to be choosing defense over offense, and I am doing the opposite.

  • In reply to BigWay:

    If we can beat Miami we will win the title.

    To beat Miami, I'd much rather have Iggy/Deng with Brewer coming off the bench. Three guys who can defend the big two at a high level with Rose who can also help on Wade in stretches or on switches.

    Pressure the hell out of them all game long by throwing elite defenders at them.

    Ellis simply gets abused defensively, and I don't trust his scoring to translate well to the Bulls. GS players frequently don't once they lose a ton of their high efficiency looks by playing junk defenses to gather up transition opportunities.

    Ellis will also play without the ball in his hands most of the time and hasn't shown to be effective in that situation.

    I think Iggy comes here and averages about 14 a night on high efficiency while fitting in well with the team on both ends of the floor. I think Ellis comes in here and averages 17 on mediocre efficiency and we're dealing all season long about how to share the ball and get him integrated into the offense better.

  • In reply to DougThonus:

    Rose would deffer to much to Ellis...that's his nature.

  • In reply to fsalomon:

    sorry: too much

  • In reply to DougThonus:

    Agree on this one.

  • In reply to adocarbog:

    Miami, Dallas, Lakers. No, as assembled today, we're not.

    I love this team, but we overachieved during the regular season and had an easy path to the CF.

  • In reply to OnePointSeven:

    Overachieved? Ok and what exactly does that mean? Did better than expected? Yeah. But if you're trying to say they played better than they are.. thats just plain stupid. The reality of life is in the games, in the wins and losses, there is nothing else, there isn't like some ideal outcome that would take place if everyone just played like they should. There is only what happened.

  • In reply to jgingeri:

    With the injuries to Booz and Noah for almost all of the year how can anyone think the Bulls arent a 62+ win team. They overachieved maybe CONSIDERING those two were hurt so often but if healthy they are def. as good as their record.

  • In reply to OnePointSeven:

    Since the Ellis rumours have been coming up I've been loooking into him some more ... and I don't like what I see. For example, lets look at what an inspirational guy he is:

    http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Monta-Ellis-leader-of-Warriors-and-men?urn=nba-203190

    "I'm not (going to) put no more on my back. Somebody else gonna have to step up. I'm not gonna do more, somebody else gonna have to step up and take on the role that Jack had and be that player. But I'm not putting no more extra on my back."

    Oh and he also can't even get along with his team mates well enough to even be in their presence except on the court ...

    http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/06/10/report-monta-ellis-no-fan-of-david-lee

    Pretty much everyone on Golden State has played better in the minutes when Ellis has been off the court too (he plays a lot of minutes so small sample size when he's not playing, so it's not conclusive, but still a worry).

    Huge red flags on Ellis for me, unless he's at a bargain price steer well clear.

  • In reply to DontLetsStart:

    he was disapointed to see his "brother"(Jackson )leave. so what ??
    You always have a reason when it comes to trade : size, defense, behavior, salary, chemestry...). No player is perfect.

  • In reply to deewaves:

    I didn't link that interview because of that, I linked it because after Jackson left he said he wasn't going to do anything to step up and fill the void, but someone else was going to have to.

    Not exactly a winning attitude is it? Can you imagine Rose or Noah or Deng saying "Yeah I'm not going to try any harder, I'm good, but I guess the rest of the team better pull a finger out"? No way, they'd take it personally and blame themselves and say they had to improve.

  • In reply to DontLetsStart:

    it was frustation matters. It was the disapointment. Warriors tread Jackson like a garbage. Ellis said just because he was frustated.

  • In reply to deewaves:

    When you're talking about moving your best man defender, your best 3pt shooting starter, your player who's been around the longest, you better be getting something that will definitely improve the team, not maybe.

  • In reply to jgingeri:

    IF you acquire Iggy in the way the Doug suggests, then Deng for Ellis becomes almost a no brainer.

  • In reply to BigWay:

    There's no point where adding a guy like Ellis who doesn't defend or play off the ball is a no brainer if it gives up a valuable asset.

    There's a very high chance that Ellis comes in, scores 15-17 a game while playing lousy defense and is exploited badly on defense while not spacing the floor one iota or having natural chemistry with Rose.

    If you get him for a scrubby types and picks, then you certainly take the chance on his upside, but not for a quality player.

  • In reply to BigWay:

    Leave a comment...

  • In reply to BigWay:

    I seriously doubt the Bulls will act in a "deal happy" mode like many here are suggesting - acquiring a 3rd tier player on a 8 figure salary just as the new CBA comes into effect. Yeah, Right!

    Rather, Bulls will be conservative and wait until a transaction presents itself where they clearly come out on top or get what they want.

    GarPaxDorf will not go all Monty Hall-Let's Make A Deal. A leopard does not change its spots overnight, nor after getting burned signing another 3rd tier player to a massive 5-year contract just months before (Boozer).

    Bulls will be very protective of their assets including Taj, Asik, Charlotte pick and see what they can get for expirings/cap relief and picks. If that yields nothing now, they likely will wait.

    IMO, I would consider using the Charlotte pick to move-up for Marshon Brooks, but don't know if Bulls will part with the Charlotte pick.

  • In reply to deewaves:

    As much as I'd like to, I don't see Phi/GS giving up Ellis or Iggy just to save a couple of bucks when the Bulls have Asik and Taj sitting around on rookie contracts. As far as trading Deng for Ellis goes, bad idea. You simply don't get much better, and likely don't get better at all. We can't be TOO picky in this situation, we have to wait for the right offer to come.. breaking up the starting lineup outside of SG(obviously moving Boozer would be nice too, but its not happening) is not an option. Unless of course you want to eat crow 2 years from now when we've traded ourselves 30 million over the cap and into mediocrity like Orlando managed to do by overreacting. But it seems many of us would like being Orlando fans, seeing how everyone is trade hungry to the max and willing to jeopardize the DNA makeup of a 62 win team in hopes of beating the Heat. And while many of you probably would have been rejoicing as Magic fans when they pulled that big midseason team changing move, you'd be wondering what the hell happened a few months later as you got axed from the postseason in the first round. I for one would rather see our proven starters remain intact. I'd like to see us add a SG by preferably providing cap relief, but if need be, by trading away Asik or Taj. Trading Deng or Noah for anyone short of Dwight Howard will NOT GET US A CHAMPIONSHIP.

  • In reply to jgingeri:

    A lot of what you say is true. You don't trade a high-minutes starting player on a 62 win/top 4 team for a lateral move. You trade one of them only for an upgrade(all-star type) and you also have a ready made guy to replace. Which means: Boozer can go because we have Taj, Bogans obviously should be replaced, Noah not now unless for Howard and maybe a year from now if his offense doesn't improve(he still will be valued by a lot of teams) and definitely not Deng(nobody of his calibre to replace him) unless you are getting somebody else of his talent.

    I know Memphis doesn't want to send Mayo but how about Rudy Gay and Mayo for Deng/Korver? Is that a good trade for the Bulls? It seems to fill two holes with young good players but I am not sure of the fit though.

  • In reply to schaumburgfan:

    Gay is certainly not the defender that Deng is. And doesn't it worry you that when Rudy Gay went down with an injury the Griz actually got better? I don't think you want a guy on a max contract that you don't even know whether he makes any difference at all to the team.

  • In reply to schaumburgfan:

    The player swap isn't bad...but Gay is making an ungodly amount of money.

  • In reply to schaumburgfan:

    Can we get a "We love the Mavericks" thread? :)

  • In reply to DontLetsStart:

    yeah!! Karma is a bitch....Screw those d-bags....

  • In reply to DontLetsStart:

    Yeah!!!Karma is a bitch....screw those d-bags....

  • In reply to schaumburgfan:

    Dirk STAYS in Dallas, doesnt really even explore the market, and he is rewarded.

  • In reply to schaumburgfan:

    WoooooooooooHooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • In reply to schaumburgfan:

    Not to digress...but the difference between 2006 Mavs and 2011 Mavs is the 2006 team was more of a defensive team and 2011 team more of a offensive team.

    GarPax get more offensive minded players to complement Rose

  • In reply to schaumburgfan:

    Chandler was huge for them too. They finally got a defensive anchor that can protect the hoop and rebound.

  • In reply to schaumburgfan:

    What what what?

    2006 Mavs: 1st in offense, 11th in defense
    2011 Mavs: 8th in offense, 8th in defense

  • In reply to DontLetsStart:

    I know stats might say something. But, Avery was a defensive minded coach while Carlisle is 2-way coach. They have three guys who can get into the paint and 4/5 guys who create shots. That's what I mean.

  • In reply to schaumburgfan:

    The 2006 team had younger Dirk and Terry (both better back then in their primes), as well as Josh Howard (when he was actually good) and Devin Harris. They were a pretty stacked offensive team.

    Big difference this time around is they didn't get screwed by the refs! :)

  • In reply to DontLetsStart:

    Watching Lebron's press conference: He is saying he is doing great but he looks like he wants to ram his head through the wall. Priceless

  • In reply to DontLetsStart:

    It was actually refreshing not to hear too much about the refs in a Finals!

    Funny how ineffective the Heat are when they aren't getting a red carpet walk to the foul line.

  • In reply to schaumburgfan:

    The punk-ass jerks are defeated! We must prepare for, but never fear these Heat.

    I'm happy for Dallas and their style of play and character.

  • In reply to schaumburgfan:

    The Mavs have beaten Miami and are NBA champions. Sometimes the good guys do win...

  • In reply to jgingeri:

    Happy for Tyson Chandler especially, guy has been salary dumped 3 times (and would have been a 4th time but for a failed physical) only to become the key piece on a championship team. Liked him as a Bull, shame we got rid of him for that douche Ben Wallace.

  • In reply to jgingeri:

    FFFFFFFFUCK YEA

  • In reply to jgingeri:

    Absolutely...lot a good guys on this team, starting with Nowitzki. Never wanted a non-Bulls team to win a finals as much as I wanted Dallas to win.

  • In reply to DontLetsStart:

    Wow, what a douche. I really don't see him working with our players' personas. Especially if we were dumb enough to trade Deng for him.

  • In reply to deewaves:

    disagree completely. Bulls need an efficient 2 way player. An efficient scorer who gets his despite the offense being run through Derrick, yet can create for himself or others when need be. Someone like, hmm, I don't know, Charles Jenkins?

  • In reply to ChiRy:

    Yes and Ellis is an efficient 2 whereas Iggy isn't. who is charles jenkins ?

  • In reply to deewaves:

    Monta Ellis career TS%: 53.7%
    Andre Iguodala career TS%: 55%

    Both get the majority of their looks by creating their own offense, so the rates are fairly comparable.

    Iguodala has historically been the more efficient of the two.

  • In reply to DougThonus:

    Iggy gives us more flexiblity since he could play the 2 or 3 thus being able to give Deng some much needed rest. I would love to get them both but that seems remote.

  • In reply to UnstopaBull:

    Ellis can also play 1 and 2. he would allow Rose to rest enough.

  • In reply to DougThonus:

    If I had to pick between the 2 I would lean toward Iggy because he is bigger and a physical specimen as an athlete, but I think that Ellis is a more prolific scorer.

  • In reply to BigWay:

    He scores more, but he doesn't score more efficiently. He dominates the hell out of the ball and scores a ton in transition due to Golden State's style of play.

    In a structured system next to Derrick Rose, Ellis will probably average no more than 17 points a game.

  • In reply to deewaves:

    Wade and LeBron have played their worst seasons to date in a long time precisely because they don't fit well together.

    Most of Miami's problems are trying to overcome the fact that they don't fit well together, but have tremendous talent.

    Rose/Ellis isn't nearly as talented as Wade and LeBron, but would go through the same struggles.

  • In reply to OnePointSeven:

    I think the conservative approach you outline is more along the lines of what GarPaxDorf will do. They are not going to change character and suddenly take on another huge salary after the Boozer mistake (which has 4 more years).

    Remember, Bulls are an asset depleted team after dumping Hinrich, Salmons and 3 draft picks to gamble (and lose) in the big 2010 free agency. So I think Bulls will try to get something for very little. If you don't think Bulls lost in 2010 free agency, how much trade value do Boozer, Korver, Watson, Brewer and Bogans have right now?

    Bulls have the non-guaranteed guys this year (Pargo, Lucas, Bogans) and guys who will be non-guaranteed one year from now (Korver, Watson, Brewer). They will try to see what they can get for this and picks while keeping the assets they value (Taj, Asik, Charlotte pick). Granted, THAT AIN'T MUCH, so I don't know if GarPax can make a truly significant acquisition.

    But I look at Wesley Matthews and Gary Neal (both undrafted and playing SG in the playoffs) and think Bulls are going to try and beat the system like this. However, given Bulls so-so talent evaluation I see little evidence to believe they can pull this off (See - the JJ Redick offer sheet, and then signing 3 Utah players but missing on the best Utah player Wesley Matthews). But I think they will try this path regardless.

    I'm not saying this is my preference, I'm saying I think this is within GarPaxDorf's character and is what they will attempt. Just like hiring an assistant coach (Thibs) or first time coach (Vinny) for $2mil instead of a big name coach for $5-$6mil, this is the organizations pattern of behavior.

    I do wish there was some way Bulls could move-up to draft SG Marshon Brooks, but I think that will be very difficult. They will not trade Asik or Gibson for Brooks. I think they should consider including the Charlotte pick in such a move-up transaction, but don't know if the Bulls will.

  • In reply to Edward:

    I think people get awfully hung up on what an organization has done under one set of circumstances and assume that's their character when in fact, their decision was based on their circumstances.

    The Bulls are on the cusp of winning a title. I think it's quite possible that the Bulls management style could change under those circumstances.

    As a side note, I think the Bulls talent evaluation with late picks has been historically very good. They've gotten Asik, Duhon, and Gibson with late 1sts and 2nd rounders. They also took Aaron Gray (who was good enough to get a 2nd contract).

    They've very well if you compare their record vs other teams in teh late 1st/2nd round.

  • In reply to DougThonus:

    Hi Doug,
    I'm not hung up on one set of circumstances, its just who GarPaxDorf is/are (a long-term pattern of behavior). I'm saying I don't see Bulls adding another 8 figure contract for someone who is not a total impact player. And there are very few impact players at SG because most of them are now past their prime - Kobe, Allen, Ginobili, Joe Johnson.

    I see a new crop of SGs beginning to emerge and I think the Bulls may go the "development route" rather than adding a 2nd or 3rd tier SG (Iggy, Ellis, Mayo with new deal) with an 8 figure contract. That's my opinion.

    I also don't think Mayo, Courtney Lee, or any of the discussed SGs are impact players. I think Wesley Matthews may eclipse most of the under 30 SGs in the league today and he was undrafted - and a FA that Bulls missed on while signing 3 of his Utah teammates.

    I seriously doubt GarPaxDorf trade Taj or Asik so how much can they get in a trade anyway? Not Much, I think, for expirings and Picks 28,30,43. However, I think GarPaxDorf will work this angle for all its worth.

    BTW, Don't even go near Aaron Gray, Doug. You are truly grasping at straws when you cite as good talent evaluation what was perhaps GarPaxDorf's biggest flub of the decade in not trading up with 49 and 51 to secure Marc Gasol(48), passively thinking Gasol would drop to them at 49. Two NBA Championships swung on that very mis-calculation.

  • In reply to OnePointSeven:

    I think the conservative approach you outline is more along the lines of what GarPaxDorf will do. They are not going to change character and suddenly take on another huge salary after the Boozer mistake (which has 4 more years).

    Remember, Bulls are an asset depleted team after dumping Hinrich, Salmons and 3 draft picks to gamble (and lose) in the big 2010 free agency. So I think Bulls will try to get something for very little. If you don't think Bulls lost in 2010 free agency, how much trade value do Boozer, Korver, Watson, Brewer and Bogans have right now?

    Bulls have the non-guaranteed guys this year (Pargo, Lucas, Bogans) and guys who will be non-guaranteed one year from now (Korver, Watson, Brewer). They will try to see what they can get for this and picks while keeping the assets they value (Taj, Asik, Charlotte pick). Granted, THAT AIN'T MUCH, so I don't know if GarPax can make a truly significant acquisition.

    But I look at Wesley Matthews and Gary Neal (both undrafted and playing SG in the playoffs) and think Bulls are going to try and beat the system like this. However, given Bulls so-so talent evaluation I see little evidence to believe they can pull this off (See - the JJ Redick offer sheet, and then signing 3 Utah players but missing on the best Utah player Wesley Matthews). But I think they will try this path regardless.

    I'm not saying this is my preference, I'm saying I think this is within GarPaxDorf's character and is what they will attempt. Just like hiring an assistant coach (Thibs) or first time coach (Vinny) for $2mil instead of a big name coach for $5-$6mil, this is the organizations pattern of behavior.

    I do wish there was some way Bulls could move-up to draft SG Marshon Brooks, but I think that will be very difficult. They will not trade Asik or Gibson for Brooks. I think they should consider including the Charlotte pick in such a move-up transaction, but don't know if the Bulls will.

  • In reply to OnePointSeven:

    Why are so many over-valuing Asik? He's a solid young defensive center... But to say that he's better than Noah? Asik is nowhere near the passer, he seems unable to catch the ball in the post and has hands as soft as rocks... Terrible ft%, not strong enough to secure post position, and if he did, he wouldn't know what to do with it... I like Asik, and I am a fan, but while he helped our defense, he also helped murder our offense... Had Noah been in, more opportunities for offensive tip-ins and better passing... And let's not forget, that when Noah was injured, Asik didn't start, Thomas did... So let's keep things in perspective, if we can get a good 2 guard, and Asik needs to be a part of the package... I'm with Doug, and will help him pack his bags..

  • In reply to RC360:

    +100. imo Asik and Noah are similar : super rebounder and super defender. We can't keep both whereas we have an empty position.
    Curently, Noah worths more than Asik because of his contract and his reputation. therefore we should trade Noah. However Noah worths a star. We aren't trading for iggy per exemple but i'd give up noah for Ellis :

    Rose-Ellis-Deng-Boozer-Asik.

    That looks good. Don't get me wrong, that starting lineup is better than the current one. After we could draft a 7 footer as Asik back-up and don't forget Kurt Thomas is pretty efficient.

  • In reply to deewaves:

    Asik is not even close to ready for a starting position in the NBA.

  • In reply to jgingeri:

    really, didn't Asik have his best or second best game of the year when he got extended minutes against Orlando and Dwight Howard.

  • In reply to BigWay:

    Asik has also had moments where he completely submarined the offense because he can't catch the ball.

    Hubie Brown once noted in a game, "Now that's on Watson there, he passed the ball in a place Asik could not catch it, right in his hands".

    I think teams would really find ways to hurt the Bulls offense considerably if Asik was out there 30 minutes a night. He's also foul out half the games based on his play so far.

    He's still a great potential guy. I've been extremely impressed with him this season. He probably can develop into a lower caliber starting center in the NBA (a prime, healthy Joel Przybilla perhaps).

  • In reply to BigWay:

    Asik has huge upside, and I love the guy. But suggesting he can replace noah without a huge drop off is lunacy.

  • In reply to RC360:

    RC360, there are some headcases on this blog. A good example is schaumburgfan whose head is up his ass when it comes to Asik. Maybe they are secretly brothers or he hails from Turkey like Asik.
    This Turkish center he's in love with has so many flaws, it's laughable. Thank God Schaumburgfan has nothing to do with Bulls management, because if he had a say, it would all be chaos in Bulls land. People from other teams reading people like this nut must wonder if lunatics follow the Chicago Bulls.

    The disturbing thing is that nobody minds if they like a player, but they go all out to destroy other players in their craze to open doors for players that are very limited. Just pure lunacy.

  • In reply to Normie:

    Have you read the other discussion boards? You should, it is mainly kids hurling expletives at each other about Kobe vs Lebron and misspelling most of their insults. But Asik is cheap, a good defender, has a great attitude and has mainly risen to the occasion when given the opportunity to play more minutes. That doesn't mean you can't trade him but he's no Aaron Gray or Tyrus Thomas.

  • In reply to Normie:

    I think Noah must have passed on to you whatever he was smoking when he was caught in Florida. Yelling and hurling insults through the internet shows your character as Dave B says below. You're lucky that Doug doesn't police this board like other forums.
    I will give that you do insult well for a 10 year old:-)

  • In reply to RC360:

    Noah and Ask should have played together much more often, that would have been one hell of a defensive force.

  • In reply to BigWay:

    +1000

    Especially when Boozer went all Staypuff Marshmallow Man in the ECF.

  • In reply to Reese1:

    That will never happen, not enough cap space. Booz $14 mil, Noah $12 mil, Deng $12 mil, Ellis $11 mil, Iggy $12 mil, Rose's extension??? Ur crazy...we would have to give up Deng or Noah.

  • In reply to calle3:

    It can be done, question is will Reinsdorf pay the luxzury tax. I doubt it so I don't look for it to happen. I still would prefer the Bulls get Iguodala over Ellis tho cause Deng can play the 2 guard spot. That would be a nice line up... Rose, Deng, Iggy, Boozer, I guess... and Noah.

  • In reply to Reese1:

    Deng cannot, and never has played shooting guard, he can play power forward better than shooting guard...

  • In reply to RC360:

    Thank you, I thought that I was the only one who figured out this most obvious fact.

  • In reply to Reese1:

    You can't match enough salaries to get both of them through expirings.

  • In reply to Reese1:

    which bulls players have an expiring contract ? and what would we do with Lu,Ellis and iggy ? Do you imagine one of them coming off the bench ? Anyway, get real it would be too easy to get Ellis only by giving up draft picks and worthless players unless Warrios want to reduce their salary cap.

  • In reply to deewaves:

    Definitely not. No team will give up their #1 option for draft picks and expiring deals. Even if the new CBA dictates a hard salary cap, they will give up on some other option before giving up on Ellis.
    That said, his value is down a little bit because of his size, defense etc.. and he kind of wants out. It is up to GarPax to decide whom they give up without sacrificing our core.

  • In reply to schaumburgfan:

    The Bulls biggest trade chips are their big men...to get Ellis either Asik or Gibson have to go as starters, then they'll have to fill in with a scorer/shooter, draft picks and expirings...still not sure that would be enough. It seems to me they are most likely to want Luol Deng. He'd be a good fit for the. Unfortunately, he's a great fit for us too.

  • In reply to John Arguello:

    Agree..If we give up Deng, we will be looking for his replacement for the next 3/4 years. He was one of the few who didn't look scared against Miami. There is no way Thibs is going to give him up anyhow even if everyone here wants to trade Deng. IMO, I would go in this order...Taj,Boozer, Asik, Noah, Deng in terms of trading for another star guard. But, you have to pause once you get past Asik.

  • In reply to schaumburgfan:

    When it was about Melo, you were saying it's hard to find a replacement for Noah because Big men are rare whereas a SF is easy to find. Now it'S about trading a SF(deng) and you say deng is hard to replace. What do you want finally ? that's where i don't agree with you. For you every bulls players is difficult to replace. So let'S not make any trade and never win championship.

  • In reply to deewaves:

    Dude, what don't you get about this? Deng and Melo play the same position, if we moved Noah for Melo, Deng would have had to be included or moved in another deal. People act as if Denver wanted Noah straight up for Melo. Are you that naive? Look at what Denver ended up getting from the Knicks. As far as this trade goes, the fact is that Deng and Ellis are relatively equal players all things considered. If you really think swapping Deng and Ellis gets us any closer to a championship you are sadly mistaken. This would be a lateral move at best, and most likely a step backward. When you're this close to a championship you don't trade away your starting SF for a SG who can't shoot the long ball better, can't defend nearly as well, and is coming from an offensive friendly team concept that usually inflates players offensive numbers beyond their actual value. Just as Doug has said, we need to add a player with our ability to provide salary cap relief for a team, not with a belligerent move like Deng for Ellis. If a solid deal comes along and we need to move Taj or Asik then so be it, but only for a definite starting caliber SG.

  • In reply to schaumburgfan:

    my order of untradable Bulls is Rose, Noah, Asik, everybody else is on the table.

  • In reply to BigWay:

    My list is: Derrick Rose

    Everyone else is on the table in the right deal. If Dwight Howard becomes available (possible), then I'll send Noah and Asik out for him.

  • In reply to DougThonus:

    +1000

  • In reply to BigWay:

    IMO nobody is untradable. I'd trade Rose in the right deal.

  • In reply to DontLetsStart:

    Who would u trade Rose for????

  • In reply to DontLetsStart:

    I can not construct any trade in my mind that I would accept for Derrick Rose.

    If the Heat called and offered Bron, Wade, and Bosh for Rose, Boozer, and Deng, I would say no.

    It's not that I don't think we'd win with the big three, but it would no longer have any meaning. I might as well go root for the Heat.

    Because Rose is a Chicago guy and one of the top 3-4 players in the league and 22 years old, there really is no deal I would make for him.

  • In reply to DougThonus:

    Well it depends what other trades you can do. If Chris Paul comes on the market and we can get him for a package based around Noah, I'd gladly swap Rose for Howard.

  • In reply to John Arguello:

    Dorrel Wright had a breakout season for them at small forward, so maybe they don't have a need for Deng, especially at his contract.

  • In reply to schaumburgfan:

    Pau Gasol?

  • In reply to deewaves:

    Brewer, Korver, and Watson are all effectively expiring contracts. They have non-guaranteed third years.

    Bogans, Lucas, and Pargo are all non guaranteed this year, meaning that they can be traded and immediately waived for no salary hit at all for the opposing team.

  • In reply to Reese1:

    Ellis is the kind of scorer they need, but how well does he fit in the backcourt with Rose. They seem pretty similar to me...then again Wade and LeBron are pretty similar and that seems to have worked out okay.

  • In reply to John Arguello:

    I agree Ellis seems to be a great fit in terms of the ball handling and offensive game he provides along with Rose to confuse the defense. But, we have seen that LeBron and Wade are having issues now. When Wade struggled throughout the Bulls series, LeBron did well and it is reversed now in the finals.

  • In reply to schaumburgfan:

    It is an interesting scenario...wonder if they could do this without trading Deng? I'd rather trade Korver or Watson, expirings, and draft picks...trade machine, anyone?

  • In reply to schaumburgfan:

    They have issues because Lebron isnt playing at his real level not because they don't fit together. Just imagine if we had Ellis when Lebron were guarding Rose in the 4th quarters. Ellis would have made them pay for it.

  • In reply to deewaves:

    Except for the fact that Dwayne Wade would D up Ellis.

  • In reply to John Arguello:

    I would really like to keep Asik. He was one of the few effective players we had against Miami. If we let Omir go, what do we do if Noah goes lame?
    I hate losing a big with Asik's quickness. What would we be looking at for a back-up center?

  • In reply to coachskiles:

    I agree about Asik. Whether it is coincidence or not, the Bulls started playing when Asik went down against Wade in the second game. They never recovered. I would say if Noah doesn't get his act together offensively by next training camp or first half of the season, we need to look at ways to make a change with him. His indifference to driving to the basket or making short jumpers was one of the biggest problems this post-season.
    Asik is probably a great Center to have if we get an Ellis type SG. We should look to build a younger Dallas type team rather than a Miami type team. The Miami type team is difficult to build anyhow with getting three top players at once.

  • In reply to coachskiles:

    Completely Agree on Asik! I don't see Bulls trading either Asik or Gibson. Granted that will severely limit Bulls SG options, but I don't think either is traded.

  • In reply to John Arguello:

    +100. IMO warriors want to get rid of Ellis not because he doesn't fit with Curry but because they want Curry to become a star. Playing along Ellis prevents his development and decreases his numbers. that's it !!
    Whereas Rose is already a superstar, a mvp and doesn't play for his numbers.

    i.g. if you team up Howard and Griffin. They can't average both 23 ppg but it doesn't mean they can'T play together. on the contrary it would a great frontcourt even if none of them will grab more than 11 rpg !

  • In reply to deewaves:

    Last I read, the Warriors were saying Iggy wasn't enough... They wanted a bigger deal deal to include Biedrins contract... Biedrins had some injury issues, but when healthy he's a very good shot blocker, high fg% guy, who shoots a terrible ft%... He's a thinner Asik, with a slightly better offensive game...

  • In reply to RC360:

    obviously Iggy isn't enough for Ellis. Or else it would be a steal.

  • In reply to Reese1:

    If you get Iggy, and especially if you get both Iggy and Ellis there is no need to keep Deng. In fact it would be a problem, because all 3 of those guys are starters being paid starters money, Ellis is actually the cheapest at "only" $11 million per.

    I don't think that the Bulls can afford to keep Deng and add both, or even one of them.

  • In reply to BigWay:

    If we get Iggy, you'd rather keep Deng than get rid of him. While neither are a perfect fit at SG, both are better than your next option. Obviously if you get Iggy and Ellis, you'd want to include Deng in one of the deals, but whats the point? Even if Iggy is a little better than Deng, Deng is comfortable with the team, knows the system, and was honestly one of the only players on our team who didn't wet themselves against Miami. I can see a deal in which we needed to move Deng to get Ellis, and then get Iggy to replace Deng. But ideally I think you keep Deng and add Ellis, Iggy really doesn't guarantee any sort of upgrade over Deng.

  • In reply to BigWay:

    They certainly are not going to get both and keep Deng. Besides the salary matching problem, you are right, it's too many cooks in the kitchen at that point.

  • In reply to Reese1:

    IF we get Ellis and Iggy we don't need Deng, they are all starters and none of them is going to be happy being a reserve. And we pretty much have to give up Deng to have any shot at getting both.

  • In reply to Reese1:

    Do you rather have iggy than Ellis ?

  • In reply to deewaves:

    I would.

    I'd consider either an upgrade for us though.

  • In reply to Reese1:

    Personally, I would prefer the Bulls to try and get both but I know that's probably isn't going to happen. Iguodala would help the perimeter defense when playing against Lebron. And like I said earlier, if the Sixers want Asik, then make Philly give up more than Iggy cause Asik for one is a seven footer and has a lot of potential, and they are dealing him within the conference. They could give up the 16th pick in the draft also...just a thought.

  • In reply to Reese1:

    and excuse the error about the Sixers wanting Iggy. I meant to say the Bulls give up Asik if the Sixers want him instead of expiring players and picks.

  • In reply to Reese1:

    So according to you, it's Luol for Ellis and Asik for Iggy ?

  • In reply to deewaves:

    Well that is the general direction that makes some sense for all teams involved.

  • Ellis a bad defender ? You are talking about a 3rd stealer of the nba this season. I know steals aren't defense nonetheless look at the top 5 of this ranking :

    http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Steals.jsp?league=00&season=22010&conf=OVERALL&position=0&splitType=9&splitScope=GAME&qualified=N&yearsExp=-1&splitDD=

    are Chris paul, Rondo, Westbrook and Tony allen bad defenders ? Then why do you think Ellis is a bad defender ?

  • In reply to deewaves:

    he plays the passing lanes and has athleticism, but that doesn't always equate with good defense

  • In reply to ChiRy:

    he is a good enough athlete that he can become a good defender in Thibs system.

  • In reply to BigWay:

    +100

  • In reply to deewaves:

    Larry Hughes had a lot of steals...but he was like a open gate on defense. Rondo, Westbrook, Paul all play alongside bigger guards. Rose is already an iffy defender. I am not saying I don't want Ellis but you have to consider everything and see how he fits before you start trading.
    It is not easy to replace Deng/Noah after they have gone through the ECF experiences. Most times you end up getting a rookie who makes mistakes or an old guy who has no energy. You need players in their primes to win. I agree overall Ellis might be a better player than Deng in terms of overall impact but that doesn't mean he is the best fit. If we knew these things, we would be sitting alongside GarPax.

  • In reply to schaumburgfan:

    For ex: On Defense, Ellis's wingspan is probably limited to funnel somebody like Wade towards Noah like how much Brewer or Deng can do. But obviously, Ellis can create a better shot or pass than Brewer or Deng can ever do. If Wade/SG is in rhythm, they will just keep shooting over Ellis which they will not be able to do against Brewer/Deng so easily.

  • In reply to schaumburgfan:

    we both agree that we need Ellis however unlike you i think Ellis worth deng or Noah. Either u need a great player at the 2 spot then u'll have to give ip deng/noah Or you don't want to give up noah/Deng then forget about getting a star.

  • In reply to deewaves:

    Ellis is not a "great" player though.

    He's a good player.

  • In reply to deewaves:

    Ellis may be worth Deng or Noah in theory, they may all three be relatively similar caliber players. But that doesn't matter, this is reality, and in reality we need to add a starting SG without giving up a starter. Swapping Ellis for Deng or Noah, while possibly being a fair trade, doesn't make much better if at all.

  • In reply to jgingeri:

    without giving up a starter ? are u kidding me ? that means u want someone like courtney lee, Anthony parker or afflalo. trust me it isn't enough to beat the heat !

  • In reply to deewaves:

    Asik. Taj. Charlotte pick. Expiring contracts. A combination of these can undoubtably get us a starting caliber shooting guard, it's just a matter of the right opportunity presenting itself.

  • In reply to jgingeri:

    Well said, YOU ARE 100% CORRECT!!!
    Bull need to add a starting SG without giving up a starter!

    Granted, not a simple task, but this is Bulls off-season mission. I think they also don't want to give up Taj or Asik.

  • In reply to Edward:

    Taj and asik are our only all around solid trade pieces, but they should only be used if were getting back a sure thing at SG.

  • In reply to jgingeri:

    Problem is, there are very few sure things at SG so I don't believe Bulls will trade Taj or Asik.

    Rather, I think Bulls will be conservative and do the best they can with expirings and picks while holding on to their core players.

  • In reply to jgingeri:

    Hooray Mavs!

    And Ellis doesnt fit on the Bulls PERIOD

  • In reply to schaumburgfan:

    It wouldn't be my first choice, but I'd consider a trade for SJax + future pick for Watson + unguaranteed contracts.

    Pretty sure Charlotte would do it since it'd save them over 5M$ next season, giving them cap space (didn't do the math though) to sign someone this offseason.

    Jax isn't super elite, but he only costs us CJ and we'd get another pick from them (or make the pick we have less protected, like top 3 in 2014 and 2015, then unprotected in 2016).

  • In reply to OnePointSeven:

    I doubt GarPax will do this trade before the trade deadline of 2012. SJax is old and why would you give up the limited number of assets for trading for almost a rental now. They will try all the younger ones like Mayo, Lee, Affalo, Ellis, Martin or FA such as JRich, Crawford etc..before they go for SJax. And, Charlotte will not be giving up any more picks definitely

  • In reply to OnePointSeven:

    I wouldn't throw in picks to get Jackson, nor do I think we'd need to. IT wouldn't be the worst move to trade unguaranteed and watson for him.

  • In reply to DougThonus:

    That's what I meant Doug. We take Jax's salary on and get "rewarded" with a pick for Watson and unguaranteed.

    Again, probably not the best we can do, but a good deal though.

  • In reply to OnePointSeven:

    Gar/Pax don't like "talent". They like "character". Sorry...

  • In reply to fsalomon:

    Talent with bad team character very rarely wins. Doesn't necessarily mean they are model citizens, but guys who listen to the coaches and buy into the team win.

    Loose cannons typically hurt teams far more than help them.

    That said, Stephen Jackson is a classic bad character guy off the court, but not necessarily a bad character guy on the court where he's generally been thought of as a good teammate in my recollection.

  • In reply to deewaves:

    Steals is an absolutely horrible way to measure defense.

    Look at the defensive on/off numbers for Ellis, and they are awful with Golden State.

  • In reply to DougThonus:

    where can i see that number ? Don't forget steals create fastbreaks and that's exactly what bulls need.

  • In reply to deewaves:

    Steals create fast breaks.. sure, but sitting in passing lanes creates driving lanes and gives up easy buckets.

  • In reply to deewaves:

    http://www.nba.com/statscube/team-vs-player.html#Warriors-vs-Monta-Ellis|1610612744,101145;season=r

    GS's defensive rating with Ellis on the court is far worse. Their offensive rating when he is on the court is slightly worse.

Leave a comment