Thibs not changing anything, but changing everything?

Tom Thibodeau mentioned in his post-game press conference that he had no intention of switching up the lineup.   Everyone is hinting about whether Bogans would get yanked to try and give the Bulls a better star, and Thibs defended Bogans with these comments.   What's hard to understand about this is why this philosophy only applies to Bogans, the player most fans would pin many of the Bulls troubles on and like to see a reduction of minutes in.

However, Thibodeau isn't going to the chalk of what got him here.

Luol Deng 39.1 40 15.5 14.1
Derrick Rose 37.4 39 23.5 35.4
Carlos Boozer 31.9 34 18.8 11.4
Joakim Noah 32.8 30 18.8 14.2
Kyle Korver 20.1 21.5 13 15.3
Keith Bogans 17.8 18 9 1.3
Kurt Thomas 22.7 17 10 18.5
Ronnie Brewer 22 16 13.8 11.9
Taj Gibson 21.8 12 14.3 10.9
C.J. Watson 13.3 9 12.8 11.4
Omer Asik 12.1 2.5 11.8 3.1

The table is sorted by minutes per game in the playoffs.   Bogans has actually had a very slight uptick in minutes played (.2) while virtually every other bench player has had a downtick.

Brewer -6
Watson -4.3
Gibson -9.2
Asik -9.6
Thomas -5.7

It's worth noting that part of the reason for the down tick with the big men was the extra minutes available while we had injuries.   This is most notable for Thomas who typically racked up DNPs or played a lot of minutes, Thomas's minutes are also considerably on the rise if you just factor in 'healthy' lineups where everyone is playing while Gibson/Asik are on the decline in 'healthy' lineups.

From looking at the numbers and factoring for injuries, it would appear that Thibodeau has maintained or slightly increased the play of Korver, and the starters (including our main man Keith Bogans).   He's given Thomas a considerable bump in terms of playing in a healthy lineup, and he's cut by a decent chunk the minutes of Watson, Brewer, Gibson, and Asik.

Most of this is fairly easy to reason out

Watson makes sense, because Derrick Rose is playing at an unreal level, and he's the best player on the team.   Watson only plays to give Rose a blow, so there's nothing strange going on there.

What's going on with Taj/Asik/Thomas makes sense because Thomas has played really well, and the Bulls have really needed his toughness badly.   I think Gibson could have had a little more burn over Boozer given Boozer's ineffectual play, but I completely get why Asik has mostly been dropped from the rotation in favor of Kurt Thomas.

Remember, there's also just fewer big man minutes available with Boozer/Noah both healthy.

The thing that doesn't make sense is Keith Bogans

Bogans has had his playing time stay exactly the same.   He's done so despite having the largest PER drop off on the team (outside of Asik, but he's only played five minutes which doesn't really count).   Outside of a pretty good third quarter in game two, Bogans has been gouge your eyes with a spoon bad.  

Yet his playing time has stayed steady.   Thibs has said he doesn't want to make a change, but he's been willing to cut Brewer's minutes, eliminate Asik from the rotation, bump up Kurt Thomas, and cut back on Gibson.  

He's making adjustments to tweak the team played with every other lower MPG player except Keith Bogans despite the fact that Bogans has been the worst of the bunch by far thus far.

But Bogans is needed to defend Paul George, he'd eat Korver alive

Most people find this argument as ridiculous as me, but I've seen it floated around.

1: If the Pacers decide to ISO George on Korver, then good for us.   George isn't one of their better offensive players, and if they screw up their whole game plan to go to him to take advantage of a matchup it would likely backfire huge.

2: Ronnie Brewer's even more capable of defending Paul George than Keith Bogans, so we could always not cut back his minutes by six per game and instead cut back Bogans minutes by six per game.

Final thoughts

Thibs has done what almost every coach in the playoffs does.  

1: He's tightening his rotation
2: He's going with his vets

In a vacuum these are good things, but I'm certainly boggled as to why you reduce Ronnie Brewer's role considerably and keep Bogans role the same when he's been perhaps the worst player in the playoff rotation thus far. 

Why does every coach have a Bogans?   A guy who makes the right decision almost all the time, but can not produce good results despite that fact?    Why do they continue to play these guys so many minutes?    Is there value in making the right decision when you can't hit a shot, and you put immense pressure on your teammates because no one guards you?

Maybe there is, but I don't really see it.


Leave a comment
  • Good article Doug, perhaps Brewer's injury is worse than what's been put out there.

    It's a shame not to see Taj out there more - Taj & Jo seem to play well together.

    What has concerned me with who's playing, is the rotations(as you mentioned it in an article the other day) they just seem odd, and out of step from what was done in the regular season. But I'm sure Thibs know what he's doing ...

  • I agree but I think you're just besting a dead horse.

  • In reply to dldjr:

    Probably, gut decision on the train today, either write about Bogans or recap the rest of the playoff games. No one seemed to reply to my other playoff game article, so I went Bogans.

  • In reply to DougThonus:

    It is a bit too early to care about the other playoff series all that much. Out attention will be more focused in round 2 and in the conference finals.

  • beating*

  • Yeah, I agree with most everything you wrote, but Ronnie's kinda sucked too, so maybe that's why Thibs has been hesitant to go to him. Then you figure he wants to keep Korver coming in at the same time no matter what (which I disagree with) and you're left with Bogans getting a slight bump in minutes.

    I'd like to think that if Ronnie was playing as well as he was a couple weeks ago (prior to that thumb injury) he'd be getting on the floor a lot sooner, and Bogans would be playing less.

    That injury really sucked. It was fluky, and in one of the last games of the year. Now it can totally affect our playoff run. Brewer just doesn't look the same out there.

  • In reply to Juiceboxjerry:

    btw, just a heads up, I think you meant: "gouge" your eyes

  • In reply to Juiceboxjerry:

    Agree with the Brewer comment. He was one of the consistent guards in the last few weeks before the injury. We are all so sick of seeing Bogans that we are now thinking that any average NBA guard(D-leaguer)can probably shoot better than Bogans(he is always so wide open for a long time).

    As I wrote in an earlier post, Bogans looks probably more valuable if the opposing SG is a top 3 option on offense(Wade, Allen, Richardson, Kobe) than if there is a Paul George.

  • In reply to schaumburgfan:

    Brewer was injured at the start of the season and missed few games to start with. Once he started playing we were appalled at how bad he was, and wanted our money back. It took him several games to get going and he never looked back. I hope we'll see him tear it up in Indy.

  • In reply to schaumburgfan:

    I think he looks less valuable in any situation because Brewer is better at defending those guys anyway.

  • In reply to Juiceboxjerry:

    To change away from Bogans now would be Thibs admitting he was wrong all season and every man and his dog with internet access and somewhere to post on was right. It's real hard for anyone to swallow that much pride.

  • In reply to DontLetsStart:

    True, but I don't necessarily expect him to stop playing Bogans or stop starting him. Just get him out of the rotation 3 minutes earlier in each period, and you've solved the problem.

  • In reply to Juiceboxjerry:

    Bottom line, forget all of the stats and excuses, Bogans has started all year and there's no sense of bringing it up now. He will continue to start barring injury and this is something that... it is what it is until the season is over with. This is a problem that has to be at the top of Gar/Pax summer to do list cause not having a legitimate scoring 2 guard that can contribute 10 to 15 points a game and has some athletic ability is costing the Bulls from being that much better. The rotations have been tightened and IMO, Thibs need to get Asik some minutes against Hibbert and Taj need to be used more along with Thomas when Boozer goes to the bench. I still hope for a sweep but seeing how the Pacers played the Bulls in Chicago, hope the Bulls can close out in 5 games.

  • In reply to Reese1:

    You could easily shift down his minutes by 6-7 a game without yanking him from the starting lineup. Thibs even did that at some points this season.

    Just pull him out at the 5-6 minute mark in the first and third, and put in Brewer. You're now giving Brewer the same amount of time he's always had while taking six minutes from Bogans instead of the other way around.

  • In reply to DougThonus:

    I know its asking for too much but I believe Butler should be used in some stretches of the game cause he is capable of stretching the floor and getting to the rim since Brewer is ailing but knowing Thibs, I know its asking for far too much.

  • In reply to Reese1:

    I'd be up for giving Butler an opportunity if it came at the expense of Bogans, but I can't imagine the Bulls doing so.

  • In reply to DougThonus:

    Agreed, Bogans is a good bench guy imo, that's why the Bulls got to resolve this problem this summer.

  • In reply to DougThonus:

    We could discuss the subject all day, but we know this is not going to change anytime soon unless a Bogans injury occurs. Since we know Keith is not coming out of the starting lineup, Thibs has to have a better handle on when to execute the quick yank on him and when not to.

    If Bogans is providing no offense and has missed one or two open threes pull him at the first television timeout and get Brewer in there immediately. If he's knocking down his threes and playing adequate defense, leave him in with the starters. It's really simple.

    Doug, I was actually one of the people who suggested leaving Korver in to play more minutes vs. Paul George. When they are matched up against each other it forces Indiana completely out of their offense. The Pacers feel this is a matchup they have to exploit, when in actuality it's playing right into the Bulls defense. The Bulls defense wants you to go isolation on one side of the floor and Korver, for all of his defensive limitations, does a great job of funneling his man into the help. This happened a couple of times in Game 2 and on those occasions George was either fouled, blocked, or turned the ball over.

    I've been saying this the entire season, but what's one more time. Quick hooks for Bogans equals more playing time for Brewer/Korver.

  • In reply to Bulls986:

    Also, Noah's minutes need to go up if he is not dealing with foul trouble. Okay, now I'm done.

  • In reply to Bulls986:

    Nice article Doug. The ONLY reason I see Bogans on the court more is Thibs perception that he can stretch the floor and open things up for Rose. Which is why Korver also could be playing more. Obviously he has not produced. Not sure if Brewer is completely healthy and if that has anything to do with it.

    I too would like to see Butler play and he has to know the offense well enough after all these weeks. I wonder if Thibs is only looking at Butlers knowledge of the defensive schemes and not feeling comfortable with him yet. I was very surprised Thibs didnt throw Butler out there a little bit more at the end of the season to SEE what he could brig to the table. He looked alright in garbage minutes but that doesnt say a whole lot.

    I sadly don't think any changes are likely to take place and until either 1. Bogans gets hurt or 2. an opposing SG just destroys him. I dont think George has killed him yet so I dont think he is going anywhere.

  • In reply to Bulls986:

    Bulls management defined, and committed to, Bogans' role on this team from the beginning. He put in his time, and pushed through the 82 game grind. He's done what he's been asked to, and punishing him now is a horseshit thing to do.

    Yeah, there is obviously a better long-term solution, but for now Bogans is our man at SG (in limited minutes anyway). Bulls are the top-ranked team in the league, so Bogans can't be that detrimental.

  • In reply to BullsMan:

    If the Bulls bring me in as shooting guard for them, and I slog through 82 games and do whatever I'm asked to do, should they stick with me because I worked hard or replace me with someone who is significantly better at the sport of basketball than I am?

  • In reply to DougThonus:

    Ah, that's the point. Who exactly is "significantly" better? Brewer? He has a busted up thumb. Korver? Great shooter, but you lose on defense (and we know damn well Boozer's not gonna come over to help). Butler? He logged like a total of 3 minutes this whole season.

    There is no significantly better, not this year anyway.

  • In reply to BullsMan:

    Brewer and Korver are both significantly better.

    This opinion is backed up statistically, by the eye test, and by the way NBA GMs have judged all there players at contract time over the course of their careers.

  • In reply to BullsMan:

    While thomas was a starer, asik and taj were a nice tandem off the bench. Besides the increased pressure, could the insertion of thomas in lieu of asik be another reason that the bench is struggling?

  • In reply to pinkizdead:

    I definitely think you're on to something there. The bench mob used to play at a much higher tempo, but Thomas isn't capable of doing that.

    I think the insertion of Thomas into the mob, has thrown off their mojo some even though Thomas has played well.

  • In reply to pinkizdead:

    Yes, and I would like Asik to get minutes with the Dwight Howard matchup looming. Thibs needs to keep Asik ready. We all know Noah cannot guard Howard.

  • In reply to Edward:

    and Bozo the Boozer can't guard anyone, so shouldn't start either against the Magic.

    I would go with Thomas and Asik on Howard, and use Noah at the 4 as a way to dominate the boards. Thomas and Asik keep Howard at bay while Noah rakes up all the boards.

  • In reply to BullsMan:

    I'd take Brewer injured over him. Anyway, I think part of the point is don't play a borderline useless player even more than usual.

  • In reply to DougThonus:

    I am guessing that the Bulls only win 61 games with you at shooting guard.

  • In reply to BigWay:

    You're underestimating the glue-guy factor.

  • In reply to BullsMan:

    Hopefully Brewer plays more as his thumb feels better and Thibs makes the adjustment after reviewing. He's too smart not to, right???

  • In reply to bullswin60606:

    I think so too. Since the bench mob has been dismantled in a way and if Brewer gets healthier and Bogans keeps stinking, I wouldn't be surprised if Thibs does what Doug is talking about(reduce Bogans's minutes)

  • In reply to bullswin60606:

    I suspect Brewer's thumb injury is worse than we know, and it won't get better for weeks. It's a shame.

  • In reply to Edward:

    however, it is his left thumb, which while not inconsequential shouldn't affect his shooting that much.

  • In reply to bullswin60606:

    The article essentially asks the question why do people whose livelihood depends on coaching winning basketball play certain players who so obviously don't deserve to play (or play as much).

    I think we can rule out that they're trying to orchestrate their own dismissal, so it must be that coaches don't think that it's nearly as obvious as some fans do. In fact they think those fans are dead wrong.

    By not reducing Bogans' minutes in the playoffs, Thibs has reconfirmed that what he wants from the SG position to start the 1st and 3rd quarters is good defense, 3-point shooting threat and few mistakes.

    My guess is that Thibs is playing Korver as many minutes as he's comfortable playing him. Other guess is that 3-point accuracy is the deciding factor between Bogans and Brewer in terms of "best fit" with the other 4 starters.

    As for the PERs, I strongly suspect that if someone tried presenting to Thibodeau the comparative PERs of Bogans, Brewer and Korver, the look on his face would be priceless.

  • In reply to Nossem:

    I would make two responses:
    1) To the idea, that you can't question a coach because he knows more than you.

    Well, no duh he knows more than any blogger, however, Vinny Del Negro also knows far more than any blogger about basketball, but it's fairly easy to see many of the mistakes he made as head coach.

    Frequently, a coach can be too familiar with a situation to see the forest from the trees, in the case of Thibodeau who has a long term relationship with Bogans, I think that's the case. I simply think he vastly overvalues Bogans contributions to the game.

    Again, the eye test, basic stats, advanced stats, and +/- metrics all back this up.

    I do agree with you in the rationale behind starting Bogans, however he doesn't live up to that rationale.

    Bogans doesn't provide a threat of three point shooting. Watch game film of how the defense defends him, and they don't treat him differently than Brewer.

    All Bogans can hope to do is actually make three point shots in order to penalize the opponent for not treating him as a threat. Something which he has not done in the playoffs thus far and was fairly pedestrian at during the regular season.

    I think Brewer puts more pressure on the opponent on offense though because the defense has to account for his movement which they rarely have to do with Bogans.

    Ultimately, Thibodeau agrees that Korver and Brewer are better than Bogans or he'd play Bogans in key crucial situations. He never does that.

    That means that you have to defend why you think the rotation works with Brewer/Korver having their minutes limited rather than playing more. Does the limit help them in some way with energy or fouls or something else?

    If not, then why are you doing it?

  • In reply to DougThonus:

    First, I think it's fine for fans to 2nd-guess head coaches. Heck, I've done it plenty of times, though I'll usually say that "I don't understand why he's doing _____" rather than that "he's wrong." Maybe this comes from my sensitivity to this sort of thing when I coached.

    Second, I agree that Thibs considers Brewer and Korver to be better players, ignoring "fit" issues, than Bogans. So do I.

    Third, I've already made my guess as to why Korver's not getting Bogans' minutes...Thibs is already playing the number of minutes that Thibs sees as optimal for him. This leaves the Bogans or Brewer question.

    From what I've seen, in the Bulls' offense there are always 2 players who share defensive safety responsibility. One is always the PG, but the other is a player who hangs out at the 3-point line. If the PG penetrates (obviously, Rose does this a lot), you'll see the 3-point "hanger" play the safety role.

    A look at offensive rebounding rates this season bears this out...Korver, Bogans, Watson and Rose (in that order) have the lowest ORB%s among the rotation players.

    Brewer is almost never one of the safeties, probably because this would take away his baseline roaming (his primary offensive skill and he's great at it) and because he's a pretty good offensive rebounder.

    If Brewer took Bogans' spot with the starters, either he or Deng would need to be the other safety. Deng's a better offensive rebounder than Brewer, so it'd be Brewer. This role is quite possibly the worst possible way to utilize Brewer because it is a role that requires accurate 3-point shooting (his greatest offensive weakness) and minimizes his opportunities to work the baseline (his greatest offensive strength).

    This is why I believe Thibodeau plays Bogans and not Brewer with the starters. Thibs has never said this so it's just my guess.

  • In reply to Nossem:

    It's a good guess, and I agree with your view overall on why Thibs chooses to play Bogans.

    What I fail to reconcile is the idea that if you've decided Brewer and Korver are better in big minute situations, why would you ever want to play Bogans more than in a minimal role to keep him active in case he's needed due to injury.

    Why would you not minimize his role further (yanking him quicker) at the start of the 1st and 3rd? Your guess is a good explanation, however, in important minutes, you're already saying you'd rather not use Bogans in that role because something else works better.

    One other reason might be to keep continuity on the bench which played exceptionally well this season, however, he's already shown that he's willing to screw with that by removing Asik and putting in Thomas which changes the entire dynamic of how the bench works moving from a more up tempo group to a slower group.

  • In reply to Nossem:

    For the amount of time Bogans is left open on the 3 pt line and the number of them he really makes, I think Brewer can do the same with his funky 3pt shooting even if it is his weakness. You are basing the theory on "what we signed" Brewer than the "actual" Brewer. I think almost NBA player(SG types) can make more 3 pt shots when they are so wide open(because of a MVP PG) than Bogans. That is why we question Bogans. Somebody might be off with their shot for a few games. I think Bogans has sucked so many times...if it was not for his supposed understanding of Thibs's scheme, he would have been benched/cut a long time ago. It is so frustrating to watch him screw up Rose and Boozer's offense.
    They are so many issues because of this. People are going of on Boozer's offense and that has become the focal point of discussion because of Noah and Bogans. And after all this, look for Bogans to go and score 3 3pointers and great defense in the next game;-)

  • In reply to Nossem:

    very good post Tom, great analysis

  • In reply to UnstopaBull:

    good arguments on both sides. I bet that thibideau has spent less time analyising this or even thinking about it than either Doug or Tom did.

    He is doing what coaches always do, going with his gut, what he feels comfortable with.

    and he is stubborn, no doubt about it.

  • In reply to Nossem:

    The thing about Bogans I never see mentioned here is that, by Thib's and his own account, he's Thib's defensive coach on the floor. Any number of times you'll see them in deep conversation during foul-shot pauses etc. He seems somehow to be facilitating TT's defensive schemes. I'm not saying it's right or best, just listing another possible reason why he's there besides the obvious (best combination of tough veteran defense and realistic three-point possibilities). One of you who likes to crunch numbers, have a look and see if you can tell the difference in Bulls defense when Bogans is on or off the floor, that would tell us a lot.

  • In reply to DougThonus:

    With Korver I can understand it. You want to start off with more D. Not rick Korver getting into early foul trouble and to save his energy for the end of games. But as Doug has said Brewer plays better D than Bogans so if this increase in Bogans and decrease in Brewer is NOT due to Brewer's injured thumb then Thibs will figure it out. Otherwise, I assume he's trying to ply Ronnie less in the hopes his thumb heals for when we will really need him.

  • In reply to bullswin60606:

    Not sure why you get so hung up on Bogans. Citing his PER is a red herring. His main contribution was never big and never showed up in PER to begin with. Basically your saying that instead of hitting 2 of 5 or 6 shots, he's only hitting 1. That has almost no consequence to the bulls offense. Now if the guy Bogans was guarding was doubling his regular season output, that would be a big deal. But that isn't happening. Bogans had a big impact at the start of the third quarter in game 2.

    And Brewer is hurt.

    And Korver almost fouled out in 20 minutes last game. He is still a huge defensive liability. He can't play any more minutes. Indiana was running plays for Dunleavy and George down the stretch against him and scoring.

  • In reply to bullshooter:

    Bogans had one impactful three minute stretch in the entire playoffs and was a complete trainwreck the entire rest of the time. No one else can live off that.

    Brewer, even hurt, is still playing better than Bogans.

  • In reply to DougThonus:

    The entire playoffs? You mean two games? Let's try and keep a little perspective...

    Bogans turned game 2 around at the start of the third quarter. Bogans went 0-3 in game 1 in 17 minutes and 1-5 in game 2. About par for the season. The guy he is matched up against Paul George, has scored 8 points total in two games in more minutes. The bulls aren't exactly losing that battle and calling it a trainwreck is one of the bigger exaggerations I've heard.

  • In reply to bullshooter:

    If I change my statement to Korver and Brewer have both consistently shown to be vastly better than Bogans in the regular season and the playoffs it's still true. I mentioned the playoff minutes because Thibs has changed his rotation in the playoffs and is keeping Bogans minutes static despite playing poorly.

    As for Paul George, he's played twice as many minutes as Bogans, so obviously, he's not much of a threat in his other minutes either even when Korver is defending him, so that's sort of irrelevant isn't it?

    Bogans isn't a train wreck because George is abusing him. He's a trainwreck because the team functions very poorly when he's on the floor and has done so the entire season.

  • In reply to DougThonus:

    You'd be wrong both about Bogans playing poorly and Korver outplaying him.

    Relative to what their roles are both guys are doing the job, and Brewer is hurt right now. I'm not sure why it isn't completely obvious to everybody at this point that Thibs doesn't play favorites. If Korver was the answer at the 2, he'd be playing the majority of the minutes. He's not because he couldn't guard my grandmother (although she was all-state in HS).

    When does the team function poorly with Bogans? According to 82games, Bogans is in the top 3 5 man units by minutes that have winning percentages of 62%, 57%, and 50%. He's in only one unit that doesn't have a >50% win percentage. They don't perform poorly when he's on the floor.

    The difference is that when Bogans is on the floor to start the 1st and 3rd quarter, they run the offense and force the ball to Deng and Boozer and Rose is a lot more passive. Again, not Bogans fault. But go ahead and keep on pointing to Bogans...

  • In reply to bullshooter:

    And Brewer has scored 6 points on 2-6 shooting in two games and is -16 to Bogans -3 over that span. Can we please try and keep some objectivity here. Bogans is a journeyman, but he is hardly the bulls problem. The bulls problems are turnovers, defense on Collison, and Boozer's lackadaisical play. All of those dwarf Bogans limited offense by several orders of magnitude.

  • In reply to DougThonus:

    Complete trainwreck? How so?

    Got torched on defense? Nope. In game 1, George scored 2 on an alley-oop and Rush made a 3 when Bogans got caught on help. In game 2, George scored 2 points while Bogans was in. My eyes tell me he's playing good defense.

    Lots of turnovers? No, actually he's the only rotation guy who has none.

    Even his 1-8 shooting hasn't been as bad as it might have been since 5 of the 7 shots he missed were rebounded by the Bulls.

    Hardly a trainwreck.

  • In reply to Nossem:

    My eyes(sometimes) tell me that his defense is just based on reputation and there is nothing special than even Korver.
    He has no turnovers because Rose will pass it to him only a few times because he is not moving around except standing around in one corner(he thinks he is spacing the floor)...even I can do that. He gets as much defensive attention as you or I would get if we are playing with Rose.
    I know you can recite for ex Jason Richardson or Hedo missing so many 3s yesterday...but they run around and try to do other things.
    And as somebody mentioned below, I think even Rose is sick of him. That's why the Obama joke.

  • In reply to Nossem:

    Bogans has played 34 minutes.

    He has 3 points, 5 rebounds, 1 assist, and 1 steal over that time while shooting 12.5% from the field. Outside of the rebounding, that's god awful production for those amount of minutes.

    When a guy's offensive output is bad enough that if you pro-rate it, he'd never be signed to another deal, I think it's perfectly fair to call that sample size a train wreck while acknowledging that it's a very small sample size.

    His defender typically doesn't bother to stand within 10 feet of him while he's on offense which causes an automatic double team for someone else on the floor and puts tremendous pressure on the rest of the offense.

    George has scored seven points with Bogans on him. He's scored 1 point while shooting 0% from the field while Bogans is not on him (at most 34 minutes defended by Bogans and a minimum of 24 minutes defended by Korver and/or Brewer).

    I'm not arguing that Bogans has been horrid defensively on George, because the reality is that George simply isn't good on offense and doesn't need a good defender on him, but what minimal damage he's done on offense has all been with Bogans on the floor, so clearly putting someone else on the floor to defend him isn't an issue.

    It's a small sample size, but if you extrapolated it out for a season, he would never even get a training camp invite again in his life. As such, I think it's quite fair to call it a train wreck while noting the sample size is small.

  • In reply to DougThonus:

    My mistake that should have been 36 minutes.

    Also worth noting that Bogans is 9th in +/- on the team for the playoffs showing that the team has continued its trend of playing worse while he is on the floor (though Brewer is presently the worst on the team in +/- in the playoffs, Brewer also has not played with the starting caliber players).

  • In reply to DougThonus:

    You are getting into Tonya Harding's territory on Bogans. Bogans better look out for his legs in the next game you attend:-)

  • In reply to DougThonus:

    Hate to nitpick Doug, but George has only scored 4, not 7, points on Bogans. I believe that you charged Bogans with George's lone 3-pointer scored with 3:14 left in Q2 of Monday's we all know, Keith has it written in his contract that he gets to watch Q2s. Believe Korver had him.

  • In reply to Nossem:

    My fault, I was reading your post to account for scoring, and I thought Rush's three was George's 3. I actually had no idea what he scored specifically while Bogans was on him and was using the data you provided (or attempting to).

    However, like I noted, the defensive impact here is minimal and not worth discussing because Paul George isn't doing any damage on offense either way.

  • In reply to bullshooter:

    Doug, it sounds like you don't really want to see it because it doesn't jibe with the numbers. It's the same reasoning Thibs has used all season. It comes down to trust and continuity. Thibs trusts Bogans and wants to keep that continuity in the starting lineup. There's no question that either Brewer or Korver would be more productive. But in Thibs' eyes chemistry and continuity are just as important - if not moreso.

    I read an article about Brewer's thumb still giving him some issues. That would explain why he hasn't taken a few more of Bogans' minutes. Korver is still closing games at SG. Besides, Bogans isn't the reason the games have been this close. Thru most of the 1st game they didn't challenge the jump shooters - especially the Pacers' bigs shooting mid-to-long range jumpers. In the 2nd game it was turnovers and misses at the rim.

    I'm not even saying I agree with Thibs. But I won't question him. It's an easy and logical argument that Bogans presence in the lineup makes things harder offensively and probably defensively on the rest of the team. But I learned my lesson about doubting Thibs' moves over 40 games ago.

  • In reply to magestew:

    Part of the point of the article was Thibs has shown he's willing to throw continuity out the window by completely changing the bench dynamic. I believe much to the detriment of the entire bench.

    If he said, we're going to go exactly with what got us here, then it'd be rehashing the same stuff. However, he's considerably altered the minutes and rotations of many other players on the team; Taj, Brewer, Thomas, and Asik.

    If he wasn't altering any minutes, I wouldn't bother mentioning it, but he lowered minutes of guys who've considerably outplayed Bogans IMO.

  • In reply to DougThonus:

    Altering Taj's minutes to try to get Boozer effective.
    Altering Brewer's minutes due to injury.
    Thomas takes Asik's minutes to get him in the groove, provide veteran stability and toughness, and to protect the team from refs calling rookie fouls on Asik (and Omer's lousy FT average).

    Not sure I like or agree with these moves, especially with Taj and Omer, but I can see Thib's logic. Hopefully Omer will get his run when we play teams who do lots of penetration, no-one clogs the middle like the Turkish Delight (and he'll help a lot on Dwight Howard). And I'm on record for wishing Taj would get more minutes with starters and Boozer provide more scoring for the second team. And damn, Ronnie's injury couldn't come at a worse time, and he's always said since then that he'll play regardless, but not that the injury was minor or irrelevant... he's clearly hurting, and if he's not an offensive threat of some kind, or if the thumb limits his ability to play disruptive defense, he's much less effective to Thib's schemes.

    Point being, I don't think Thibs is making these changes just for fun, I think he's been forced into them by injuries and the continuing lack of confidence in the Boozer / Noah tandem... It's ugly, but really, we've missed so many "easy" shots in these first two games, especially early in the first and third quarters, if we make three or four of our usual gimmes these games are never so close... I think we're looking at the wrong problem by focusing on Bogans again.

  • In reply to DougThonus:

    I think the most telling statement made about Bogans came from Rose, when he mentioned that it is too bad Obama couldn't suit up for the Bulls, because they needed a starting SG for the playoffs.

    I know everyone and their mother dismissed the comment as a joke, but I'm not as quick to do so. Rose could have easily said another shooter, another scorer, etc, without coming close to hinting at someone's deficiencies. He specifically said starting SG, and I think it was purposeful.

    Rex Grossman is my QB
    Neifi Perez is my SS
    Keith Bogans is my SG

    Must be something in the water in Chicago!!

  • In reply to saigman:

    I don't think Rose was joking either but no one wants to bring it up. I'm sure Bulls management will address this issue when the season is over cause the Bulls are too close to becoming a potential dynasty even tho I do feel Miami and the Knicks will be problems for the Bulls for some years to come.

  • In reply to Reese1:

    ANy chance Rose said that because that's the position Obama plays? So that's what he'd say to make a polite and smart comment about the President? I'm sure his teammates knew he was joking... that image you're believing is so totally at odds with the Derrick Rose we all know and love. Um, FAIL... -100 or whatever...

  • In reply to petert23:

    But, Rose said we need a starting SG and not just a SG. Maybe going on your theory, he thinks it is disrespectful for the President to come off the bench.
    That said, even Bogans knows he is on borrowed time.

  • In reply to petert23:

    Its not about me failing at anything, however... its kind of sad that you do not see that the Bulls do need a 2 guard that can score at a better clip than your best friend Bogans, and that's no joke. If you had a chance to ask Rose does the team need a better shooting guard, do you really think that he would say no??? Again... sorry for you if you think he would say our team is fine with Bogans starting.

  • In reply to petert23:

    Keep in mind... we've played two playoff games so far... TWO. Not much of a sample size now is it? I'd give a coach that has won 62 games and 2 playoff games thus far some benefit of the doubt. Perhaps Brewer's injury is worse than we all think and the staff are trying to let him heal up some more for the next three series we'll be in. We will definitely need better play from Brewer for the next rounds of the playoffs. Against the Pacers... ehhhhh not so much. Bottom line: we're wins away from the second round, no need to over-analyze things, just enjoy the ride :D

  • In reply to DougThonus:

    Regardless of the bogans argument, I totally agree that Thibs is messing with the good chemistry that the Bulls had in the their rotations during the regualar season, and so far it seems to be hurting the team not helping.

  • In reply to DougThonus:

    I guess that my supposed Mappy like "hatred" for Bozo the Boozer is not unjustified. An 11.4 per despite his "awesome" stats(17 & 16) in game 2.

    The problem with the entire playoff rotation, is Boozer playing way too much and the other bigs playing too little as a result. 11.4 is not starter level play, and that stat doesn't even factor in his historically attrocious defense, which is at least a -30 on the PER scale, that would be Michael Jordon level bad.

  • In reply to BigWay:

    It's not about whether Boozer has played badly in the playoffs (I think we all agree he has), I'm not saying you're a troll like Mappy.

    It's the fact that like Mappy you're becoming a one issue poster. For example you come into a thread about Bogans and want to turn it into a Boozer thread ...

  • In reply to DontLetsStart:

    Thats because we've beaten the Bogans story to death, and nothing is changing baring injury, and the thread was also about Thibs changing his entire rotations, but not moving on Bogans, one of those changes has been more Boozer and less other bigs, as well as Boozer at center, so my comments are indeed relavent to the post.

  • In reply to DougThonus:

    I can't wait til the front office just rids themselves of Keith Bogans this summer. Yes, he is a decent emergency guard, but it is clear, if Thibs has him on the roster, he will give him a role Bogey clearly doesn't deserve. I'm looking for Gar & Pax to force his hand, while adding a nice young player like Courtney Lee or someone similar. I'm sure Gar would have to run it by Thibs before they tradded Bogans, and that could make for an awkward situation potentially.

  • In reply to ChiRy:

    Yes thats exactly what i was just about to post about. I feel like we need to just get rid of bogans after this season otherwise Thibs will continue to play him even if we add a two guard like OJ Mayo or Lee. just need him off the roster to keep him from playing which is stupid cause everything u hear is that he is a good locker room guy. But thats all he should be

  • In reply to ChiRy:

    All this talk bugs me a bit and it's been going on all year. Bloggers and fans can have their opinions, but we don't know as much as we think. I don't love Bogans, but remember he played more minutes last year under arguably the best coach in the league, Mr Popovich. Count the rings.

    Last time I checked, the Bulls were 2-0 up and won 62 games this year. It's obviously working with him starting, even if it's not the way everyone would like it to happen.

    Thibs has got a ring, so let him do his thing for now. By all means, complain about it when it doesn't work.

    Then again, it's the internet and we've all seemingly got enough spare time to theorise about things that we have no control over and probably will never happen, so go for your life.

  • In reply to JonoHimself:

    and then the Spurs glady replaced Bogans with a rookie, one who was not a high pick mind you, and they are better this year, much better.

    Sometimes coaches are not perfect, even the great ones.

    Bogans puts very little on the table, anyone can see that.

  • In reply to JonoHimself:

    If you want to argue about him starting the the past: Pops tried it and replaced him mid season. Van Gundy tried it and replaced him mid season.

    The difference this year? Thibs is too damn stubborn to replace him mid season.

  • In reply to bullshooter:

    Boozer played 40 and he is a worse liability(defensive and otherwise) than Korver, and provides less benefit to the offense than Korver does also. and Boozer practically fouls out on just his offensive fouls, and actually would every game if they called them all.

  • In reply to bullswin60606:

    It's hard to say this, but Ronnie was shooting the ball pretty well(mid range of course not out to 23 or threes) before his thumb injury. And in transition he was doing an excellent job as the mid court/second ballhandler either dishing for dunks or going in himself for monster jams. If his thumb is decent/healthy enough there's no doubt I'd like to see him getting more then 22 minutes to Keith's surprising 17.8.

  • In reply to Bulls986:

    I agree with the quick hook philosophy as a way to mitigate the damage this problem causes.

  • In reply to DougThonus:

    We're 64-20 with Keith Bogans starting. I've come to the point, where I'm sick of reading any analysis on this team. They are, who we think they are. A team that plays very ugly at times, but wins. I wouldn't bet against D. Rose in a 7 game series.

  • In reply to gibby6385:


  • In reply to Reese1:

    Butler can play! He is a scorer who looks for his shot. There is no one else on Bulls roster who fits that description (besides Rose). 3 or 4 buckets per game would be such a big help to this team.

  • In reply to Edward:

    Using Butler would give us a little bit of the Korver effect, which I believe is good for Rose and the Bulls offense in general.

    and is Butler really any worse on defense than Bogans. Bogans is a pitbull type, but is he really a great defender, I am not so sure.

  • In reply to Reese1:

    Agreed Reese1 a quality SG is a must this offseason because we can't continue having Rose carry the team by himself at the guard position!

  • In reply to Reese1:

    Thibs needs to stop playing BGBZR at center period, that would cut back his minutes by at least 6-8 per game and let Taj or Asik play more.

    Asik obviously made a bad joke about Thibs mom or his sex life, which from all accounts doesn't exist.

Leave a comment