It's time to start Kyle Korver

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I've been arguing for awhile that the Bulls should start Ronnie Brewer over Keith Bogans, but this argument was really that I thought it was time to stop playing Bogans with the realization that the Bulls would not start Korver.  

However, in preseason, I said the Bulls needed to start Korver and almost a quarter through the season, I feel stronger than ever that it's the right move.


Why do the Bulls want to bring Korver off the bench?

Look, Tom Thibodeau is a really bright guy.   This isn't some conspiracy, and I don't believe he's stubburn or a moron.  He's shown a lot of flexibility and smarts as head coach, and I'm writing a blog, so there's a pretty good chance he's right.  

The reason the Bulls want to bring Korver off the bench is they need offensive punch with the second unit, and they look for Kyle Korver to provide it.   If Kyle Korver is in the starting lineup, then you lack a pure offensive player to come off the bench and provide a spark.

So why do I disagree with this?

Korver really isn't that type of player.   The Bulls are trying to push him into a Ben Gordon like role, but Korver isn't Ben Gordon.  He doesn't create his own shot, and the Bulls run him off of multiple double screens in order to try to get him open with the second unit.   These plays frequently have no good second option and result in a very poor look on the (frequent) times that Korver isn't able to break open with enough space to make his shot.

On top of this, the plays we do get Korver the ball frequently result in shots he can hit, but extremely difficult shots.   Shots where he's sprinting off a double screen, catching, turning, and shooting all in one motion while going from a sprint to a stop.   Korver's an elite enough shooter that this shot is in his repertoire, but it's certainly the lowest percentage shot he's going to shoot.

Also, while running these double baseline screens for Korver with C.J. Watson handling the ball up top, the Bulls are not taking advantage of the space that Korver can provide.   They aren't opening up the lane for someone to penetrate, because he's not playing with slashers.  

In summary, Korver's forced to take the hardest kind of shots in his arsenal and the team isn't taking advantage of the space he provides.

Okay, but Bogans/Brewer are still going to play, why does it matter where Korver's minutes come from?

When Korver is on the floor with Derrick Rose, the Bulls aren't running nearly as many double screens for him.  He's typically floating around the perimeter looking for a hole outside the three point line.   When delivered the ball, he's typically shooting an open spot up three point shot. 

This shot is a much easier, much more efficient look for Korver.    Also, because the defense needs to always account for his presence and the defense needs to account for Boozer and Rose, the pressure put on the opposing defense is severe.    They will frequently lose him, or they will open up a lot more room for Derrick to drive or Boozer to operate in the post.  

It's a win/win when Korver/Rose play at the same time, because they complement each other.  Rose gives Korver easier looks, and Korver gives Rose more room to drive.    It's my opinion that all of Korver's minutes should be with Derrick Rose on the floor, and the easiest way to accomplish that is to start him.

Hold the phone though, what the hell happens to our offense when Rose/Korver go to the bench?

The beauty of the situation is that the Bulls are presently misusing C.J. Watson.   Watson can create his own shot, but frequently he's just standing behind the three point line dribbling the ball waiting for Korver to come off a double screen.  

Pushing Korver out of the minutes that Watson plays and asking Watson to run some simple pick and roll with Taj Gibson gives the Bulls a viable offensive set to use on the bench to utilize their two best offensive reserve players. 

We saw what C.J. can do against Denver, that wasn't a fluke.  It's the type of game he's capable of having when he's allowed to create for himself and become a high volume player.   C.J. has the skillset to play the shot creator role off the bench much moreso than Kyle Korver, and starting Korver will push C.J. into the role he's best at and most comfortable with.

Alight, you sold me on the offensive end, but I'd want a frontal lobotomy after watching a Rose/Korver defensive unit

Korver's going to play 30 minutes no matter what.   His defense is going to be what it is for those 30 minutes no matter what.   The Bulls have already acknowledge that they're going to live with those short comings, as they should, and they live with them in the critical moments of the fourth quarter.

The best way to minimize his defensive shortcomings is to get the most out of his offensive strengths, and that's by playing him with Rose where you improve Rose's game and Korver's game.

On top of that, while defense is important, perimeter defenders are highly overrated.   Perimeter defense is created by having great interior help defenders which minimizes the responsibilities of your perimeter defenders.   If your perimeter defenders know that they just need to honor a jump shot and force someone to the baseline, they can cover a much more athletic player fairly easily.

Korver's played solid positional defense and generally hasn't had an issue playing in that role.   Yes, there are times where he gets blown up on a play, but you don't see teams going isolation on Korver over and over again, because doing that on an player is unlikely to work in the long run.   The help schemes team's employ are too sophisticated. 

Final thoughts

I know it's not going to happen, and I know Tom Thibodeau is a bright guy, so he's certainly got his reasons, but starting Korver is the right thing to do.

Comments

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  • You convinced me.

  • Korver is a good scorer at times, even though he's been missing quite a bit lately but it wouldn't hurt to try him at the starting 2 position and hopefully he won't get burned on the defensive end. Both Philly and Utah tried starting him and it didn't turn out to well, hopefully things will be better this go around with the Bulls considering that he is just a spot up shooter and sadly that's all the Bulls really have for point production at the 2 position.

  • wrong. This is the BG argument all over again. And the answer is still to bring him off of the bench. Yes Bogans sucks. But Rose/Korver is absolutely not the answer. You turn a strength into a weakness.

    Korver is being used in exactly the right way by Thibs. For ~20 minutes a night he comes in against second teams and forces opponents to adjust to the bulls. He is a spot up shooter and nothing else. By playing him 30 minutes and starting him, the bulls are the ones forced to adjust. All of a sudden Deng and Rose are forced to play out of position defensively and against stronger individual matchups. So the bulls defense is worse and they have to score even more to make up for it.

    On top of that, you've diluted the effectiveness of Korver and Rose, not enhanced it. Because of the way Korver plays, running off of screens, etc., he can't do that for 30 minutes a night, game after game. Ray Allen can't even do that.

    The problem isn't the offense, it's the lack of foul calls for Rose. Brewer should be playing more and JJ should be taking minutes from Bogans if he isn't knocking down shots aggressively because at least jj is aggressive.

  • In reply to bullshooter:

    Most of what you stated is true and the only part of you statement I disagree with is the Bulls offensive. They don't have the personel for a good shooting guard. BG 7 was a good 2 guard as far as starting on the offensive end cause he could get to the basket at times and draw foul, but Korver is a straight up spot up shooter and that's all. They are both terrible on the defensive but like I said BG could bring more as a pure scorer. And I also agree that Korver needs to stay on the bench but at this point it wouldn't hurt to try him at the starting 2 for a few ganesh to see how he handles it. IMO I think that position is pretty much a lost cause this year cause the Bulls don't have the assets to trade for a quality shooting guard...( SARCASM )

  • In reply to bullshooter:

    BLIND AMBITION:

    Kyle Korver is NOT a SG. He's a back-up SF. That's where he should be playing.

    Doug's headline, if he wasn't blinded, should read....

    "It's time to TRADE JJ for a back-up SG."

  • In reply to MrHappy:

    NOPE HE'S not a shooting guard Happy but some Bulls fans are salivating to get Korver in the starting line up. He won't make that much of a difference because of his defensive liability and his game is not the make up of a starter but they have to try something cause sadly the Bulls management is nor creative enough to get some sort of deal for a shooting guard done. And you guys that think the Bulls can't get something done are fooling yourselves. It can be done, the Bulls will just have to give up a good asset or two in order to get a good asset in return, whether it be this year or after the season is over, someone on this Bulls team will be traded if the Bulls want to solve their scoring problems.

  • In reply to MrHappy:

    Doug

  • In reply to Edward:

    I think the JJ trade idea depends on what we want to do as a team; win now or win later. I think JJ could develop into a dependable 2nd unit guy (with A LOT of work and patience) but he has showed flashes of what he could be. He will be making tons of mistakes out there, probably costing the Bulls some games. The wing player is really hurting us right now, but I don't want to throw JJ into the mix and develop him so his trade stock rises. I don't see any player I would want to move right now for a solid SG though (Deng, Noah, Taj).

  • In reply to bpmueller:

    Assuming Korver started with Brewer being the first SG off the bench, whatever remaining minutes Thibs might have wanted for Bogans should go to JJ. JJ has at least shown flashes of being able to do something.

    I don't know if Bogans is just on cruise control prior to retirement, peeved that he didn't command more attention during the offseason or what, but he has looked completely useless so far this season.

  • In reply to bpmueller:

    Rather have Brewer starting and Korver off the bench for instant offense. Brewer actually plays good D, lives along the baseline which opens up our shooters and big men, his shot and offensive game look so much better now, and he crashes the boards hard. He finally has his legs underneath him and its time for him to get his shot starting.

    Didn't realize Booz is such a defensive liability. Didn't get a chance to see much of him in Utah. Is it due to just coming back from injury or does he have defensive issues?

  • In reply to bpmueller:

    KYLE WEAVER - SHOOTING GUARD
    http://blogs.bulls.com/2010/12/kyle-weaver-making-a-name-for-himself-in-nba-d-league/

    Kyle Weaver is 6

  • In reply to Edward:

    I doubt the Bulls bring Weaver back cause Bulls management don't have the balls to over rule Thibs. They will let some other team pick him up and the Bulls will be stuck with what they have at the shooting guard spot... NOTHING!

  • In reply to Reese1:

    Reese1,
    If that happens then like I said I need to stop wasting my time following the Bulls.

    Adding Kyle Weaver is a no-brainer! If developed, he has the potential to be another Taj Gibson or Wesley Matthews. And at no cost to Bulls!

  • In reply to Reese1:

    LA Lakers and Celtics have sure accumulated players and have plenty of tools in the tool shed to deal with any team!

    I was hoping we could have signed Matt Barnes and/or Shannon Brown, but Barnes more so. Brewer has great potential along with JJ but they need to bring it soon and so they get real time to play and show they are important members of the team and get more minutes.

  • In reply to smiley:

    Keith Bogans needs to sit so his minutes can be used to develop a player who has upside potential. Only problem is JJ is not a SG.
    Kyle Weaver should be signed and Lucas sent packing.

  • In reply to smiley:

    I like Korver with our starters but i dont feel he should start because as bad as it is, he and Taj an Watson are our only real scorers on that 2nd unit. An we need the scoring punch off the bench. But as you have seen....Thibs keeps Korver in there at the end of games with our starters. I love having the guy out...defensives at all times need to know where he is at...he even brings defenders off thier own guys at times. As you saw in the Houston game. IMO i want to give him more minutes....but I wouldnt have him start, I would have him finish the games though.

    There are soooooooo many SG's in the D League the Bulls could grab...i have no clue why they dont. We dont need Lucas on this team...a couple years ago....James White was in the D League scoring 26+ppg!!!!!! Plus he is 6'7!!! Bigtime athlete...im not saying he is the answer...but he is deff. better then having Lucas rot on our bench. Morris Almond is still out there too.

    D Leagues players are great to have because you can have those guys focus on 1 thing an have them try to master that skill. In the case of James White....we could of brought him up and had him play Defense for us. You tell the guy that the only way your going to get minutes is if you play great defense....IMO that guy will be playing the best defense he could to just get on the floor.

  • In reply to Csharp:

    That is the thing...you don't need a player who focuses on one skill, you need a player who can do a large sum of things on the court. I doubt if any of those guys down there are as good as the shooting guards available. Maybe they are but I doubt it.

  • In reply to Houston:

    In Bulls position where they need to add a SG but cannot afford to trade Taj Gibson, they have to try to develop talent.

    It's a dilemma that can only be solved by a younger player acquired cheap and emerging on your roster like a Wesley Matthews or Taj Gibson.

    Good young players emerge every year. It's just a question of finding the right young player to give minutes to. The Keith Bogans experiment needs to end - there's no upside, no future, there's not even a present.

  • In reply to bpmueller:

    Great points guys, I've been wondering where Kyle Weaver went and why we have short lil Lucas back on the team and not Weaver?!
    Weaver could play the Salmons role and is similar and could play SG/SF, but primarily SG which we need.
    I agree we should try a
    Rose/Brewer/KK/Boozer/Noah lineup and see how that goes!
    It looks like a well balanced group!

  • In reply to Edward:

    THE OTHER KYLE:

    What about bringing Kyle Weaver back?

    http://www.nba.com/dleague/playerfile/index.jsp?player=kyle_weaver

    * He's playing very well in the D-league.

  • In reply to MrHappy:

    During the preseason I corresponded with Sam Smith on the Kyle Weaver issue. Sam said Thibs refused to play Weaver because GarPax brought him in, he was not Thibs choice, sort of a power struggle thing with management. So instead Thibs went with Lucas (who totally sucks and is not an NBA player) and Scalabrini.

    Weaver CLEARLY was the only player with the athletic potential to develop into a decent player. He is the right size(6'6" 200), age(24), position(SG). Weaver's D-League numbers are great. They indicate he deserves a chance in the NBA.

    Short of trading Taj and the Charlotte pick, Bulls might have to cultivate a younger, unpolished diamond like a Kyle Weaver. He has some potential upside.

    As much as we fans and coach Thibs want to compete this season, the fact is Bulls are a couple assets short of being able to construct a contender. They somehow have to acquire an additional asset or two. One way to do that is develop a young player like Utah/Portland developed SG Wesley Matthews.

    JJ warrants more playing time for similar reasons. Keith Bogans has no upside/future so Bulls are wasting minutes that could be used to develop assets.

  • In reply to Edward:

    As long as you brought up SS, he seems to be on the O.J. Mayo bandwagon.

    I would love to see Mayo next to Rose, as he appears to be a good defender with appropriate offensive skills which should improve playing with Rose.

    Apparently, Henry is now starting over Mayo, so maybe there is something to be done there. Cannot see them doing it for JJ, but is Charlottes pick worth a shot.

  • In reply to BigWay:

    O.J. Mayo would be worth trading the Charlotte pick, but the concern is teams will want Taj Gibson instead. I don't want to trade Taj!

    How do Bulls add a SG without trading away an asset? This is the riddle Bulls must solve as they are currently an asset or two away from being able to construct a contender.

  • In reply to BigWay:

    HOLY SH*T:

    Is Chris Paul coming to Chicago?

    http://nba-facts-and-rumors.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22748484/26278923

    That would be UNBELIEVABLE to have DROSE and CP3 in Chi-Town!!!

  • In reply to MrHappy:

    Chicago : This one was brought up by Sports Illustrated this week and it's an interesting question. Could Chicago support a fifth sports team, and a second basketball team? The Bulls undoubtedly would always be the favorite, the Yankees to the other team's Mets, as it were, but the market is indeed large enough to support a second team. Chicago has some of the best sports fans in the country, and attendance is almost always at stable league measures across sports. There are certainly enough investors to drum up an ownership group if someone was interested in a majority share, and sponsorships wouldn't be an issue, either.

    But what about the building? It already exists.

    The Los Angeles Lakers, Los Angeles Clippers, and Los Angeles Kings all occupy the Staples Center. While Staples is newer than Chicago's United Center which currently hosts the Bulls and defending Stanley Cup champion Blackhawks, the United Center is bigger, and you can make the dates work. The question would be if it would make financial sense for the United Center to give up the free nights for eight months of the year (geez the NBA season is long) in exchange for the tenant, and whether logistics costs would skyrocket too much with having to handle the demands of three teams.

    A second Chicago team would satisfy the NBA owners contingent's interest in a stable, big-market location. An at least temporary arena is in place should the team's owners decide they want their own digs in another part of town, and it's hard to see there being no interest in the club given how rabid Chicago sports fans are. But that's a whole lot of teams in one market, and even New York has not had more than the Knicks in several decades (though they're due for a new neighbor in 2012). It would simultaneously be the easy way out and a bold move for the league to approve and push for a second team in the Windy City.

  • In reply to MrHappy:

    Good, maybe we could pawn your stupid ass off on that team, and you could stop taking about the Bulls.

  • In reply to MrHappy:

    Sorry for so many posts, but Derrick Rose whether you agree or not, is seriously in the conversation for MVP according to Yahoosports.

    http://sports.yahoo.com/video/player/nba/23275789;_ylt=AlDyDem5klwqT4RQ8ZDIZJO8vLYF#nba/23275789

    Derrick starts pump faking/drawing fouls/getting to the line like his pal Westbrook and I agree he very possibly becomes a legit MVP guy.

  • In reply to Edward:

    Hey, anybody read about Kyle Korver tearing it up in the D-League?

    http://blogs.bulls.com/2010/12/kyle-weaver-making-a-name-for-himself-in-nba-d-league/

    Any chance they bring him up on a ten day contract or whatever/short term and see what he does for ten minutes a game?

    Either way minutes will be available to somebody Ronnie, C.J., and Kyle if Thibs wakes up, and sits his crony Bogans who is doing nothing stat wise on the court down. His non-production, black hole 20 minutes is killing this team.

  • In reply to MarkNorman:

    sorry, Kyle Weaver.

  • In reply to Edward:

    Maybe the Bulls best lineup might actually be: Rose, Brewer, Korver, Boozer, Noah. Brewer is almost never a primary scoring option on a play but he plays a unique style of offensive basketball that almost seems entirely built on cleaning up broken plays or missed shots. Considering the Bulls main scoring threats in the first unit will be Rose and Boozer, they don't really need a big time scoring 2, just someone that can knock down an open jumper or be a potential bailout pass around the hoop. Bogans gives you the bailout corner 3 and that's about it. I think Korver is a better system scorer than Deng in the 3rd or 4th scoring role bc he runs off screens so well and has better range at the 3. Also, since Brewer is 6'8" and athletic (when healthy, which he seems to be) he could be used to guard the top wing scorer from the other team while Korver would hang with the lesser of two evils.

    This would allow the Bulls to put Deng with the second unit where he has played a bulk of his minutes already this season and should be comfortable. When the Bulls were getting into their reserves earlier this year, often times Deng would be the holdover from the starters. You could then make Deng the primary scorer in the 2nd unit and ease the scoring burden placed on CJ Watson while ultimately setting him up for easier scoring opportunities. I know the team would never actually do this but I still just wanted to throw it out there.

  • In reply to swolty:

    Speaking of things that will never happen.

  • In reply to Edward:

    I just posted this. But it didn't go through.

    http://blogs.bulls.com/2010/12/kyle-weaver-making-a-name-for-himself-in-nba-d-league/

    I agree with Doug that Bogans should not be starting over Kyle, Ronnie, or C.J. But due both to his career numbers and his current production which is basically 20 minutes of emptiness that is killing this team I take it a step further, and say sit Thib's pal Keith completely. He is killing this team by taking away 20 minutes a game Ronnie and/or C.J.(and a few more possibly for Kyle if he starts with Derrick and is cashing in with points/production) need. Give Ronnie a good chunk of that 20 and see what he can do. If he doesn't give you his career 10ppg on 50% with 1.5 steals then you turn it over to C.J., and bring him up to 28-30 minutes and see if he can give you 10-12ppg on solid shooting with both unlike Bogans have shown they can do. And 20 extra minutes could give you ten a game to bring up Kyle Weaver on a short term contract, and take a chance and see what he can do. He sure is starring big time down there right now in every way.

    You think about it why not give him a chance? We let Samardo Samuels go, and he's scoring 6.5 ppg on over 50% from the field with Cleveland.

  • In reply to MarkNorman:

    sorry, the first post about Kyle Weaver from Sam Smith's story on Bulls.com took a while/delayed in posting.

  • In reply to Edward:

    I'd also like to add that Brewer creates more turnovers and also passes/finishes better on the fastbreak than Deng.

  • In reply to MrHappy:

    i've figured it out! we'll TRADE JJ and OMER for eric gordon! it happened in my TRADE MACHINE. so IT IS IMMINENT, similar to DWYANE WADE signing with the CHICAGO BULLS.

  • In reply to MrHappy:

    i think it has to be a matchups thing. if you're playing a SG like Kobe, you need to start brewer because korver will get killed. if you play a SF like durant, they usually just have a stopgap at SG like sefolosha so you can get away with a Deng/Korver lineup. If you play miami, you have to bring korver off the bench because miami's poor post D means you can get away with not spacing the floor as well for rose, but you need to keep your perimeter defense up because otherwise lebron or wade will go off.

  • In reply to MrHappy:

    I would say that Taj is our 6th man. The problem is we need a 5th wing player. Taj is capable of bringing a strong presence to our 2nd unit. And I agree with most that's being said, Bogans needs to be out (completely). Between CJ, Korver, and Brewer, I think they could handle the 2 role for now (in a short term solution).

  • In reply to MrHappy:

    One thought on tonight's game Thunder at Bulls: Durant and Westbrook are both averaging 9-10 trips to the line per game on near 90% free throw shooting. So that's nearly 20 points right there guaranteed. Talk about efficiency.

    If the Bulls are going to win tonight they probably will have to shore up their D which often has been suspect of late, and stop Durant and Westbrook from driving to the basket/getting to the line. And on the flip side Derrick needs desperately to up his trips their himelf instead of making his scoring task so much more difficult then OKC's top two who have it relatively easy. Of course I know the NBA refs shunning Derrick are part of the problem i.e they suck wang.

  • In reply to bullshooter:

    Korver will never hit threes at the percentages he is capable of if he's constantly taking tough fade aways off of screens. He's getting worn out and isn't able to set his feet well. With him in the starting line up he gets to take the type of shots that Orlando feasts on. I don't agree with Doug that you don't lose anything defensively since he plays the same overall minutes, he'll be playing against better offensive players. It makes for a tough choice, but I really think Brewer is over rated as a defender, outside of Chicago he actually isn't known for defense, John Hollinger actually refers to him as a defensive liability in his pre season player evaluation. All things considered I'd keep him on the bench, but I'd change the way our bench plays offense. We should let CJ create his own shot with the space that Korver provides, and instead of running KK in circles, let him move around and get lost in the corner where CJ can defer to when he is unable to finish.

  • Good points Doug, hopefully Thib uses Korver as a starter like you say is makes sence and with Rose, KK, and Boozer on the court together they all need to be covered giving Noah easy buckets as well. The 2nd unit needs scoring punch but if we can build up some leads with our 1st unit, the 2nd unit will hopefully concentrate more on defense and try to hold that lead while the 1st unit gets rest.

  • None of your arguments address the bulls problems. Offense isn't the problem. The bulls score 100.7 pts/game. Miami scores 100.7 and Boston scores 100.9. Orlando scores fewer.

    The bulls don't need to score more, they need to defend better. That's the difference between them and the legitimate contenders in the East. Adding Boozer to the mix makes the defense a little shakier, and adding Korver makes the defense significantly worse.

    And since when is Korver's role that of a creator? When has he ever put the ball on floor? The bulls run offensive sets to get Korver open spot up shot attempts. They have plays to take advantage of when the defense overplays, but Korver is never directly creating anything.

  • In reply to bullshooter:

    Actually, he has put the ball on the floor more than I would like to see, and his passing has been borderline disastrous.

    The Ben Gordon rule should be in affect for Korver, the less dribbles before the shot the better. By the time he gets to a third dribble a turnover is more likely than any points being scored.

  • If you look at Korver's numbers this year for minutes, points, and FG percentages they are spot on for his career numbers.

    One thing about starting a defensively marginal guy like Kyle is that then other team's immediately try to iso him to exploit him or get him into foul trouble. Where as you bring him in off the bench, and if the team(defense is already playing well) he might not stand out so much/get the immediate focus of other teams and the refs.

    That said I would not have a problem with starting Kyle. He still could get a bonanza of wide open shots off Derrick's constant double teams. Maybe he has a career year type of situation, and can get his minutes up to say 27 with a couple of extra wide open attemtpts and bring his scoring up to say 13ppg.

    My real concerns, other then Derrick not utilizing what has become the standard in pump fakes/drawing contact(and ocassionaly selling it with a fall down and, 'oh My god I've been shot'(Stacy King line) which has become the league standard for scorers/starting guards and wings getting to the line, but my other concerns are the guards terrible offensive production and Boozer as a defensive liability.

    Between Bogans, Brewer, and Watson each is averaging about five points a game. Bogans of course on 38% FG's. And while C.J. is also shooting in the 30's he showed us something with that 30 point outburst. I mean I'd take it as more of an anomaly except he did it in his very first opportunity to see major minutes/replace a starter(Derrick). Quite a coincidence?!

    Also Ronnie Brewer has had two seasons of 12 and 13.7ppg on 50% FG's and nearly two steals a game. His career numbers are 10ppg on 50% with 1.5 steals.

    Either one of these guys should be playing over Keith Bogans. It's just that simple. Get Bogans off the court. We need scoring from the guard position. It just can't be Derrick, Kyle(who seems to score in bunches/on certain nights), and a bunch of guys shooting in the 30's with 5ppg.

    Really, you have to fit player spots/positions and rotations based om minutes. So say Kyle does start. Who by the way besides having the freakish wiring and picture perfect release does have Kirk Hinirchitis meaning despite his career percentages he still takes a lot of off balance shots many of which are unecessary/he just rushes himself. He will get open shots with Rose and even sometimes otherwise, and he quite often simply rushes them while still moving/flies into them rather gathering himself, and then going straight up. Someone please correct this as the Lakers/Phil or whomever on his staff you always see players improving on this when they join his teams. There's a reason why so many guys come to him, and thier shooting percentages soar(Shannon Brown, Ariza etc.)

    Anyway so Korver starting at SG say 22 minutes. Hopefully now with Bogans out Kyle is playing with Derrick, and you give some of Korver's backup SF minutes to J.J as a defensive energy guy(who doesn't turn the ball over four times per game). So 26 minutes left at SG. So if we're agreed Bogans career numbers(7ppg and 40%) and this year's production are far deficient to Brewer and C.J. then he's out.

    So then the question becomes do you let Ronnie Brewer play most or all of those 26 minutes, and see what he can do? He was brought in as the probable starter. Then what C.J gets Derrick's 10-12 minutes on the bench. And then if Brewer doesn't produce offensively 10ppg and 48-50% then you reduce him significantly, and give those 20 minutes to C.J. who then ends up with 30 minutes to see what he can do. We've got to committ to somebody and get an identity/consistent player presence there.

    Aside from Kyle playing with Derrick with wide open looks, the main point to me is either Ronnie or C.J. are going to have to step in as a significant player/contributor for the guard position not to be a liability past Derrick(and Kyle). I do believe the lack of production/dud offensive play by the current platoon trio of Bogans, Watson, and Brewer is hurting the Bulls energy on both ends of the floor.

    So completely dump Tib's crony Bogans for either C.J. or Ronnie to get the time they need, and then give the other guy a good look if they don't seize the opportunity.

    One other note. Boozer to me looks so lumbering/slow defensively
    guarding fours yet has the size/strength to me regardless of height to guard many 5's. If it's me maybe you play Booz more at center with Taj at the four and maybe even Jo some at the four. I know people will say he's too small/will get killed, but personally I'd try it.

  • None of your arguments address the bulls problems. Offense isn't the problem. The bulls score 100.7 pts/game. Miami scores 100.7 and Boston scores 100.9. Orlando scores fewer.

    The bulls don't need to score more, they need to defend better. That's the difference between them and the legitimate contenders in the East. Adding Boozer to the mix makes the defense a little shakier, and adding Korver makes the defense significantly worse.

    And since when is Korver's role that of a creator? When has he ever put the ball on floor? The bulls run offensive sets to get Korver open spot up shot attempts. They have plays to take advantage of when the defense overplays, but Korver is never directly creating anything.

  • In reply to bullshooter:

    You need to adjust for pace. The Bulls are the 18th ranked offense and 10th ranked defense.

  • In reply to bullshooter:

    I feel like by mentioning the S word you're just going to get knee jerk responses to that rather than the point, which is we can do better at SG by better using the players we have.

    Really whether Korver or Brewer starts isn't a huge deal, this isn't a Ben Gordon situation where not starting him is costing him minutes, Korver and Brewer aren't going to be playing more than 30 minutes anyway.

    I think improving the SG really depends on three things:

    a) Bench Bogans, because both Korver and Brewer are better. He'll still play when theres foul trouble or an injury (and be an asset for that sort of role), but not as part of the regular rotation. Can see why Thibs wanted him in to just have a low mistake player while the Bulls get going, but now is the time to transition out of that.

    b) As Doug says, stop running so many screen players for Korver. Just lok at the shots that result from them, they're terrible shots that he struggles to make. This is a guy who knocks down probably 2/3 of his set shots, you have to try to find a way to get a couple more of those. Whether that's the drive and kick from Rose Doug suggests, or post ups of Boozer followed by kick outs, I don't know, but Thibs needs to figure out how to get the most out of what Korver can do rather than try to shoe horn him into being Ray Allen lite.

    c) Ronnie Brewwer needs to get more of the ball when he's out there. He's hitting a decent percentage, and getting to the line a decent amount (not making the FTs yet, but that will come), but he's just not getting the ball as many times as he did in Utah. He's never going to be a big time scorer, but I feel like you need to at least look to him a little more to keep other teams aware that he is out there and you're not playing 4 on 5. The baseline moves he has are nice, if they could run something that lets him do that a couple more times a game then that would be perfect.

    Basically if you can get Bogans out of the game, get a little more efficiency out of Korver and a little more volume out of Brewer you'd at least get a decent amount out of the SG position. It'd still be the weakest position for the Bulls, but it wouldn't be the "five different people post completely unrealistic trade ideas after each match" position it is now.

  • In reply to bullshooter:

    Hi Shakes,

    I agree with most of what you state and what Doug has suggested regarding better utilizing Bulls current roster, but hold one remaining caveat: no matter who Bulls start or play instead of Bogans it is not, nor never will be, enough to make Bulls a contender. That's my opinion.

    Those players that will elevate Bulls to contention are not currently on this roster.

  • In reply to Edward:

    I disagree with the not currently on the roster bit, I think whether you improve the SG position or not contention rests almost entirely on how good Rose can become.

  • It's been my opinion for some time that what the bulls need more than anything is that 6th man. Korver more than likely isn't that guy. I don't know if CJ Watson is either though. And Taj certainly isn't. If the Bulls make a trade before the deadline, that's what I'm hoping for. A 6.

  • But they aren't using him as a creator. Watson is the creator, he's just not very adept at being a creator.

    And why would you put a guy in the starting lineup and not increase his minutes? Isn't that what they are doing with Bogans? Korver should find it harder to be effective against starters. And Rose is doing just fine as it is. He doesn't need any help on the offensive end, he needs it on the defensive end.

    You're worrying about the fifth option on offense. You should be worrying about the defense.

  • In reply to bullshooter:

    While I agree that the Bulls defense has sucked to start game lately(and to start the third quarter), the offense is not producing during those periods either, which is why we are constantly facing double digit deficits.

    Bonehead has to go, try either Brewer or Korver at this point, but trying Korver first makes more sense, since the fallback is Brewer anyway.

  • I love the idea of Korver starting, but not at SG. He's just not fast enough to hang with the athletic 2's. I know you made the point about perimeter defense being overrated, but against teams like the Lakers and Heat, you need a lock down defender out there.

    Why not start Brewer at the 2 and Korver at the 3 and bring Deng off the bench.

    A first unit of Rose, Korver, and Boozer is awesome offensively and a second unit of Watson, Deng, and Gibson is better than anyone else's in the league offensively.

    Of course then you could argue that with Luol becoming a legit 3 pt shooter, it destroys the spacing you are trying to create for Rose by putting Korver into the starting lineup. With Luol and Korver in at the same time, Rose has a lot of space to roam... so I do get that.

    It's an interesting paradox and something I'd like to see Thibs experiment with while it's still early in the season.

  • In reply to johnbegone:

    When Boozer rounds into shape this could be an interesting idea.

    However, if we can't get Bonehead out of the starting lineup, moving Deng only happens in a Mappy wet dream.

  • In reply to johnbegone:

    One final thought, comparing Korver to Ben Gordon is an insult to Korver, defensively at least.

  • Doug, what do you think about bringing up Weaver for a ten day/short term contract is that possible, and if so would you do it?

    I know that unless Thibs sees the light and sits Bogans 20 minute abyss of non-production/empty stats butt down this all will be a moot point. God, I wish Thibs would wake up, and put his connection with Bogans aside, and realize he has players that were brought in in Ronnie and C.J. who were supposed to have significant roles on this team, and in recent years and career wise have produced with much greater proficiency then Keith Bogans who is doing nothing. To me the Bulls are the conservative types who wont do this, but I'd bring Weaver up and see what he can do in ten minutes a game.

    What will it take for Thibs to realize that these other guys have a far greater ability to produce offensively then Bogans. And we do need some production besides Derrick and Kyle at the guard spots.

  • You were/are 2/3 correct, we will all need a double lobotomy after watching the Rose/Korver/Boozer trifecta on defense.

    Thibs might just have a heart attack on the sideline.
    Which is why it likely never happens.

    The problem(defensively)with both Korver and Boozer is that they seem to not know where to go, or who to guard in Thibs schemes, or they do not have the will or atleticism to go where needed. Not sure that this will ever change no matter how good Thibs is as a coach.

    I would certainly give it a shot at this point to see if the extra offense materializes. The early defense has sucked as is anyway, and I would do anythng to get rid of BoneHead(Bogans).

    I cannot see how we have anything to lose, maybe we try this after the Laker game, when we hit that stretch of games where we will be favored for a month.

    I totally agree with your thoughts on CJ, Thibs needs to put him in a position to be what he is, which he displayed in the Denver game.

    Good post, even though I think Korver is more small forward than 2 guard.

  • yes yes yes. Korver is running around getting burned out and when he does get a shot he's usually actually fading away without setting his feet well. But Doug, I'm not sure its fair to say you don't lose anything defensively as Korver would be facing more starting caliber players. Given, he does play against starters in the 4th quarter most games since we need him out there to hit threes. I'd like to see some numbers to give us a better idea as to how our defense stacks up when Korver is in the lineup late against tough lineups.

    If you don't want to start Korver, then I think we have to change the way our bench operates. Let CJ be a creator and cut down the double screens allowing Korver, as well as the other 3 players to find spots on the floor that CJ can defer to when the defense collapses on him.

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