Bulls Beat #169 - Start Korver

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Bulls Beat #169 - Start Kyle Korver
The Bulls go 1-2 over the week losing statement games to Orlando and Boston while barely getting past Houston. It's time to start Kyle Korver for the good of the team as the move puts everyone in a more natural role.

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  • BAD IDEA:

    If the Thibodeau started Korver, his bench production would suffer.

    The BETTER IDEA is to trade James Johnson (and/or K. Thomas) and a pick for a SG.

  • In reply to MrHappy:

    Nah Thibs is barely playing him anyways.

  • In reply to MrHappy:

    Korver can't guard anybody. Between Bogans, Brewer, Watson and Korver...Korver is the worst of the bunch defensively. You cannot discount the importance of perimeter defense. If you look at the losses that were suffered, the opposing guards caused a lot of problems, especially point guards. Vince Carter went off also. Korver would not improve the perimeter defense at all.

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    In reply to Houston:

    "Korver can't defend" is the 2010 version of "Rose can't shoot". Watch a game already. Last night 1 of Rose's 5 steals came off a Korver deflection (then a breakaway for a two-hand slam). Korver's not all NBA defensively but he's not a total liability either.

  • In reply to Redwhitenblack:

    1 deflection leading to a steal doesnt erase the fact that the guy your guarding is scoring like crazy....Korver puts forth maxium effort wich is a plus but he still is a crash test dummy on D

  • In reply to Redwhitenblack:

    If they started Korver I would be worrying about him getting into early foul trouble, cause they refs always call him for ticky tacs

  • In reply to Redwhitenblack:

    Watch a game already? You tell me to watch a game and give one of the dumbest explanations I've seen. Because 1 of 5 steals came off of a Korver deflection he is NOT a liability....after 18 games...that is really stupid.

  • In reply to MrHappy:

    Sigh. I guess it's time for the "Why Brewer Should Start Over Korver" post I knew in October would be inevitable before the new year. I just figured it'd be after light-out shooting off the bench during the stretch of 11 joke teams on the schedule after the Lakers this month.

  • In reply to MrHappy:

    This getting to be ridiculous with the 2 guard position. If a move isn't made on or after Dec.15, the Bulls better be looking to do something big by the deadline, meaning a 2 guard that can get the job done or make a sacrifice and go after Carmelo. At least if they have him locked up next year they go after some bulk to help Noah down low cause he sometimes gets abused down there. Bulls may have to give up Taj and Asik along with other assets but this scoring problem has to be resolved.

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    Finally!!!! Doug, welcome back to the good side of the force.

  • You wanna start Korver that's fine with me. Bogans production/stats are so non-existent I'd take Kyle, Brwer, or watson over him at the SG right now without doubt. It's obvious/screaming for a change.

    Quick note back to last night's game: 30 points and not one foul call? Derrick, for the love of god get some technicals and get thrown out of a game while you're at it. And then watch the tapes of last night's game with Martin and Lowery pump faking, heaving, and falling down/flopping their way to the line. If you don't start taking advantage of your athletic gifts and get some points/FTA's at the line(Westbrook is getting over ten a game) then you're really not taking advantage of your gifts the way a talented scorer like yourself should. And don't ask, "why not me for MVP anaymore if you are not going to start giving your team the trips to the line you need/deserve and stand up to the refs like a Real team leader would/does/should! I love you D, but you are dishonoring yourself with this passive crap. It has to end. Or your team will lag behind in your example/weakness.

  • If you want, I'm open to a point-counterpoint cross-post or discussion. It's more than perimeter defense, though. I actually see Brewer in the starting lineup as more conducive to the Bulls offensive strategy as well in the first quarter, closing out the half, maybe even at the start of the third.

  • Oh well... then I guess it Will be a mediocre season and we Bulls fans having to cheer for a team that will hover around the 500. mark

  • In reply to Reese1:

    Bulls will be well above .500. In fact, I think they will finish over .600. But come playoff time Magic and Celtics will crush the Bulls and there's no guarantee Bulls can handle Miami or Atlanta.

    The wing/SG woes are well documented. And Magic, Celtics, Lakers (with Bynum) have frontline bulk that the Bulls cannot handle. Until those holes are filled Bulls are not even in the conversation for the Eastern Conference crown.

    Celtics added three 7-footers this off-season to prepare for playoff battles with Magic and Lakers.

  • In reply to Reese1:

    I'm feeling this way too, I've moved from the Brewer camp to the Korver camp simply because I don't think the Bulls offense is going to get that much more out of Brewer than it currently does Bogans. Korver fits the scheme so start him.

    Split Bogans minutes between Korver/Brewer/Watson, and give Rose/Deng/Noah a few more minutes rest too. They're the #7/8/9 players in MPG at the moment. I don't think the team gets killed by giving Rose more rest IF you put the right players out there with Watson. You can't just run Watson/Brewer/JJ/Scal/Asik and expect good things to happen.

  • In reply to DontLetsStart:

    Also some people will probably hate bringing up this stat, but in the limited scenario I think it applies:

    Brewer and Korver mostly subbed for each other in Utah, and Korver always had much better +/- numbers. Even adjusting for the fact there might be some offense/defense switching going on, it seems Utah played better when they had Korver on the court, the Bulls numbers suggest that so far too.

    So I think the stats back up what the eyes see: Korver is our best SG, so start him.

  • In reply to DontLetsStart:

    that tells me Korver played with starters more, but that also means Sloan agreed with Doug & wanted him in there with Deron to help with spacing

  • In reply to ChiRy:

    Brewer probably played with the starters more since he was starting.

  • In reply to DontLetsStart:

    maybe to open the game. Just like Thibs I'm sure Sloan had Korver out in crunch time, as well as other times.

  • In reply to ChiRy:

    also, maybe its skewed b/c he was playing mostly against other reserves

    I just don't really like that stat

  • In reply to ChiRy:

    I don't even know what it means to dislike a stat. Plus/minus isn't like PER or Win Score where it's a formula that has been subjectively chosen to give what the author feels are good results, it's just a measurement of what happens while a player is on the court.

    Like any one data point it's not the holy grail of player evaluation, but it seems like overcompensation to ignore it completely.

  • In reply to DontLetsStart:

    I don't think it represents how good a player is, & it is misleading. Never said I would ignore it completely, but thats why I gave you 2 examples of how it can be misleading.

  • In reply to ChiRy:

    I don't know what it means, to not know what it means to dislike a stat. To me that makes no sense.

  • In reply to ChiRy:

    Doug,
    Do you get the sense that Gar & Pax might be a bit displeased that the man they signed to be 12th man is getting such a large role, and not really earning it?

  • In reply to ChiRy:

    Here we go, player pair data from 08/09: http://www.82games.com/0809/0809UTAP.HTM

    Korver in 1040 minutes was +126 with Deron
    Brewer in 1809 minutes was +98 with Deron

    On the face of it supports Korver in the starting lineup, except this one worries me:

    Korver in 414 minutes was -88 with Boozer.

  • In reply to DontLetsStart:

    BTW
    Korver leading all Bulls in +/- @ +79. Rose @ +64 Noah is @ +36

    James Johnson also has a +13, greater than or equal to all his competition @ SF & SG, & 10 more than the starter Luol Deng

    Bogans is also +6 while Gibson 0 & Brewer -2

  • In reply to ChiRy:

    Deng is terrible in +/- this year for some reason, he's historically been a positive. Then again he's playing so many minutes the amount of time he's off is a pretty small sample.

  • In reply to DontLetsStart:

    when people are talking about perimeter defense it a joke you can no longer hand-check so you will never have a perimeter guy who can stop penetration that why you have bigs it more about rotating to the open man kyle should start now because of boozer passing ability when the two guard drop to help in the post you have kyle there to keep him honest. thib needs to play jj more he is better than bogan.nobody blame thib however, you have to wonder about some of the lineup we wouldn't have to worry about the two so often if he played watson and rose together you would have a more dynamic back court.

  • In reply to chicago1971:

    I would like to see more JJ if they were to agree that he shouldn't be handling the ball a lot, or making decisions. Just play a Bogans like role, and be athletic & disruptive on D & on the boards, and run the floor. Hit the shot when it is wide open. You prove you can do that role for a couple of months, then it gets expanded.

  • In reply to ChiRy:

    What position would you have JJ play? If he plays PF he eats into much better players minutes in Boozer/Gibson/Noah. If he plays SF he either eat into Deng's minutes or he takes the backup SF minutes from Korver, which is the position we can best hide Korver defensively. He can't really play SG, so he can't take Bogans' minutes.

    There's no minutes for JJ on this team.

  • In reply to DontLetsStart:

    Are you kidding? Korver plays lots of SG, thats where he gets most of his end game minutes.

    SF & SG, that's where JJ would play.
    There is definately minutes at the 3. I would have Korver mostly play 2 to limit Bogan's minutes. Deng needs less minutes too.

    As long as Bogans has minutes, there is minutes to be had.

    Also, no JJ at PF, we are extremely deep there.

  • In reply to ChiRy:

    I'm not saying Korver doesn't play SG, I'm saying you want to get him as many of his minutes at SF as possible because he's better defensively at that position.

    Not really a fan of using JJ as the defensive 2 guard, that's what you have Brewer for. Watson probably defends most SGs better than JJ too.

    Really there's no reason to play JJ when you have guys who are better than him at any position. I think throwing JJ in as an energy guy when the team is down big is fine, but I don't want him part of the regular rotation.

  • In reply to DontLetsStart:

    I would give him 10-15, esp during the upcoming cakewalk, pretty much all at the 3 when Deng rests. I would have a lot of Korver & Deng out there together, both can hit the 3 while Derrick is out there.

    I like Brewer as an energy guy, but JJ does some nice things too. He can shoot a little better & blocks more shots, rebounds too, just have to limit the dumb plays

  • In reply to ChiRy:

    I like JJ's talent but his overall game is just a mess. I mean if he could limit the dumb plays he'd be a starter for some teams, but I don't think the Bulls are the situation for him to learn to do that. JJ needs to go to a struggling team where they can promise him consistent time no matter how he plays because they don't care whether he loses them the game.

  • In reply to ChiRy:

    I think the Bulls should look at possibly trading for Anthony Parker of the Cavaliers to fill the starting 2 guard slot. He is currently in the last year of his contract earning 2.8 million dollars. The Bulls could absorb his whole contract without giving any players, however James Johnson and a future pick could get it done. Seeing that the Cavaliers are rebuilding, they can probably get him for just a future pick. I think Parker would be a great asset at the 2 guard postion. He's a big guard who plays respectable defense, and hits the 3. He is also from Chicago.

  • In reply to DontLetsStart:

    I have been for starting Korver for a long time! The only thing is I'd like to see Brewer start when we play teams with star 2 guards.

    Korver really hasn't been that bad of a defender though but I would love for us to match Brewer up on Wade like Utah does Bell on Kobe

  • In reply to UtahBullsFan:

    exactly

  • In reply to Reese1:

    Doug, that is interesting insight about the use of both Korver and Watson. All season Korver's shots have looked very rushed - he is not getting quality looks and his shooting percentages are down. You idea is worth trying as Bogans is providing nothing at SG and it seems obvious a change should be coming.

    The defensive liability of Korver is the only caution I have with him as starting SG. In watching Korver this season it seems rather obvious why he has not been a starter for most of his NBA career. But barring a trade Bulls must experiment with what they have.

  • In reply to Edward:

    The flip-side of the defense argument, is that right now, opposing 2-guards expend zero energy on defense (unless they're crashing the boards or doubling Rose). With Korver out there, you at least keep opponents honest defensively.

    Bottom line, the goal is to have at least 1 more point on the board at the end of the game than your opponent. Korver probably gives you the best shot at that right now, with Brewer contributing a little, and Bogans being groomed for a administrative position within the organization (Head of Siberian Scouting seems fitting).

  • In reply to Reese1:

    see if you can make this statement 2 months from now without getting laughed off the board

  • In reply to ChiRy:

    Which statement is that? About Bulls finishing above .600? Or about not being able to handle Magic and Celtics in the playoffs?

    Bulls schedule is considerably easier the next 2 months and Bulls will rise in the standings as a result. But it takes a different kind of roster to compete in the playoffs. I feel Bulls weaknesses will become less apparent with the weaker schedule, but will become more apparent again during the playoffs.

  • I believe starting Korver will open up Deng more also on the perimeter, then the second unit will be the Gibson/Watson/Brewer show. Thibs has already said that the second unit is gonna run through Gibson anyways.

  • It's true that the only trade assets Bulls really have are the Charlotte pick and Taj (and I'd really like to keep Taj). I don't see anyone else having much trade value: Korver, Watson, Brewer, Bogans, Asik, Scalabrini, Thomas or JJ. In other words, besides Boozer the Bulls off-season acquisitions have no trade value! What does that tell us about the state of the roster?

    GarPax have a lot of work to do if their goal is to produce a contender.

  • In reply to Edward:

    There are rarely any teams that were under the cap to start their off season that have a lot of trade assests. The Magic for example have almost 40 more mil in payrol than us, and there is nothing Bulls management can do about that until they get more time.

    Give Brewer a chance to see how he functions with starters. Give Korver a chance as well. See who works best. I think Brewer is significantly better than Bogans on offense, because he can use his althticism, make cuts, get tip ins, & create fast breaks.

  • other than that I would be all about it for the reasons you mention. Brewer, Korver, & Watson need to be playing with Rose. Esp Korver & Brewer

  • I agree that perimeter defense is pretty low value, although there is one thing that make Brewer's defense valuable more so than a guy like Kirk: he actually has the ability to generate steals (and not by gambling passing lanes, that hurts you as often as it helps).

  • exactly
    the only way that would change would be if a guy was playing lights out

  • agreed, your last line of defense is most important, if Korver gets beat off the dribble, he just needs to be smart & rotate over quickly to the right guy

  • Doug,

    That's a NAIVE statement on your part.

    - Nick Young
    - Courtney Lee
    - Sam Young
    - Jermaine Taylor
    - Wayne Ellington
    - Terrence Williams

    Anyone of those guys can be had and would be an UPGRADE at SG.

  • In reply to MrHappy:

    cortney lee for sure, maybe nick young, he is looking mighty inconsistent again and refused to MAN UP the other day with a minor ailment.
    terrance williams is a head case, the rest of the guys suck

  • In reply to ChiRy:

    ChiRy,

    FYI: Nick Young put up another 20 point effort.

    Know your basketball!!!

  • In reply to MrHappy:

    After putting up 2 terrible shooting nights & 1 DNP !!!! That's inconsistency

    Know that your a moron!!!

  • In reply to ChiRy:

    The same inconsistency that has plagued him his whole career. I'm with you Happy, I would like to see the Bulls give him a shot, but know that he is not a savior.

  • In reply to ChiRy:

    I don't know Lee is an upgrade, he's not the defender/finisher that Brewer is, and not the shooter Korver is. He's kind of a utility guy, but do you really want another of those next to Deng? I think I'd prefer the specialists we have that you can sub for each other as the situation dictates.

  • In reply to MrHappy:

    SF NOT A SG:

    Another reason why Doug's plan fails is because Korver is better suited at SF.

    SG - Brewer/Young/Bogans
    SF - Deng/Korver/Bogans

    That would be an UPGRADE.

  • NICK YOUNG:

    Another 20 point game on 8/14 FG shooting vs. Phoenix.

    Why not go after him? He's cheap and a RFA after this year. The Wizards are going nowhere.

    I bet they would take either JJ or Kurt Thomas and a pick or cash for him.

  • In reply to MrHappy:

    I would send a #1 for him

  • Contrary to what Doug thinks, Korver is needed on the bench.

    - Start Brewer
    - Trade JJ and/or K.Thomas for a SG (Nick Young or another guy I listed)
    - Move Bogans to the #3 SG/SF, where he belongs.

    That's the better direction to go.

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