Derrick not drawing fouls: A ref problem or a Rose problem?

Check out this video from shamsports:

Derrick Rose honestly doesn't get fouled a lot. He tries to avoid
contact so as to maximize the percentage of making his shots, and,
because of his great athleticism and body control, he is able to do this
to great effect. This is the main reason why he doesn't get to the line
much, and also why he shoots such a high percentage. Only one play in
this clip is shown from the first half of the game, and in that first
half, Derrick Rose took 16 field goals and 0 foul shots. This is not an
injustice, because Derrick Rose wasn't fouled on 15 of his 16 field
goals. (And the one on which he may have been fouled, the first clip in
the film, Anderson
may have gone straight up, thus making the no-call the
correct call.) The shots he took were floaters, open layups and
jumpshots that he got himself open for, either in isolation or pulling
up off the dribble.

Looking at the video, I see probably one foul call that should have definitely been made [the one Mark points out].   One foul that was really borderline, but could have been made [first clip] though given the total number of fouls in the game, I'd suggest it probably was fair not to call it.

Outside of that there may have been some physical bumping and body contact in the incidental area on a couple plays, but again, relative to the way the game was called it's hard to complain.

In the end, watching this video of all the clips just made me feel like Rose simply needs to do a better job of creating contact rather than falling away from contact.


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  • The transition/break play at 1:12 is the sort of situation I think Rose gets a bit hard done by. It's obvious without the contact Rose will score in those sorts of situations, and there's not a lot of bodies there, so the refs surely know any contact is an intentional ploy to prevent the basket. I guess in this particular example Rose doesn't help his own case by losing the handle, if he managed to get some sort of a shot up maybe they'd have sent him to the line.

    In the plays where the paint is crowded Rose certainly doesn't do himself a lot of favors with the way he sort of rocks back after the contact and tries to shoot a fadeaway over the player, like the contact was part of the set up for his shot. Maybe we should have kept Noc around to give him a few acting lessons on how to fall to the floor to milk a foul (although obviously Noc's talents in that department were at the other end).

  • Across the internet the consensus seems to be that Rose gets no respect, but I find myself between that and the argument above. While I believe Rose should get more calls, at the same time he does go out of his way to avoid contact. That is just who he is. I have heard Rose say before in interviews that when he was growing up and playing in the parks around his house, there were no refs so you had to learn how to get your shot off. Foul or no foul. I've also heard him joke about having older brothers that were always bigger, he always had to find creases and holes to fit in...bottom line is his game was formed around trying to weave his way through traffic and still produce a quality shot.

    It's unfortunate he doesn't get fouled that much, but at the same time its a breath of fresh air that he's not like Bron, Carter, Kobe, Duncan...all of the 'superstars' that just plow into traffic, take a tap on the arm, and then fall in agony like they've been shot. That's not basketball. I understand its rewarded, but to me there is still value in doing things the right way, and letting the chips fall where they may. D-Rose does that, and that is why I don't begrudge him his lack of FT attempts.

  • This reminds me of the comments from the announcers regarding Lebron, he's the size of Karl Malone but with quickness. Hmm if Karl Malone bowled into people like Lebron does it would have been called a charge. Also I agree with you Jumpman, almost 95% of those blocks from behind are goaltending, but the refs call the game differently. The bulls need to take the game out of the refs hands but thats easier said than done, considering chicago has their own faults, and lack of talent.

  • I had to work so I didn't see a lot of the game. Just watched a little of both halfs to get a feel for the game/series.

    I've said all along that IMO Derrick gets no support from Vinny. If he doesn't get it on that blatant new jersey foul, then he ain't gettin' it period.

    Screamingly comnesurate to his abilities of freakish athleticism, speed, and hang time/body control he has to learn to create contact. D should be averaging at Least seven trips to the line a game. That's right seven. Watch tapes of Allen Iverson in his prime. He was the master. The guy only shot low 40's percentage wise most of his career yet his FTA's per game were at 9 and ten for nearly a decade.

    While Derrick needs to get with it, and be his own advocate fighting for calls with the refs and making it a confrontation as Wade and Kobe do, not just barking once while the ref blows you off, and walks away. You have to stay in front of the guy, and keep arguing the case in strong, emotional exasperation until you get some acknowledgement or a T preferably at least to get a start at them listening. Derrick's a big boy, and he's got to learn to fend for himself. And he also has to learn how to fall, do a head fake/shoulder fake, and bring his arm up swiftly to create contact/the "bump" with the leaning player.

    Of all the faults of Derrick and Vinny on this, I fault the NBA agenda and rep driven refs even more. Anyone who says the double standards and star treatment plus giving lucky teammates the same advantage or disadvantage of non-rep teams isn't corrupt is just fooling themselves. It's an embarassment to the sport.

    It's hard to believe as the money has gotten exponentially huge/bigger that the agenda for favoring higher rating products/teams has not become more urgent. I'm surprised congress(corrupt to the hilt in their own right) or some legislative or some prosecutor's office/Attorney General hasn't demeanded access to all NBA heigharchy communication and instruction to the refs. Which is exactly what should occurr. Make it an indepedndent body(the NBA refs assoc) if you have to headed by a former I don't know general, business titan, Federal prosecutor someone regarded as completely beyond reproach.

  • I honestly think Rose's quiet and humble demeanor contributes to him not getting more calls. He rarely complains, talks to refs, gets involved in the politicing of the game. I like that about him, but it makes it easier on refs to call nothing. His strength and body control hurt him in not getting calls too. He can take a hit in the lane that would throw C. Paul or Mo Williams to the ground, but Rose has the body strengths to stay on his feet and try and make the bucket.

  • He gets the doubt because he is Shaq and he's so big that it's hard for refs to tell when he is actually fouling someone, using his strength to gain position or box out, or is being fouled himself. His size alone has made him maybe the hardest guys for refs to call in the past decade. On that note, some of Noah's called fouls on Shaq were absolutely horrible calls. On one, Noah properly held his position and on another Shaq just fell over his own feet.

  • The only problem with Rose trying to avoid contact is that there is nobody else on the Bulls team who tries to make contact. But we also have seen the impact for Rose of going against somebody like Dwight Howard. But that said, it would seem that he would get more benefit of doubt because he is a smaller guy than LeBron, Kobe, Duncan.

    Maybe Rose needs some acting/faking classes to get a few calls. The main impact is once he gets some calls, the defenders might be a little hesitant to body him up so much

  • Oh please, Doug. You know that if that was Lebron he would have gotten every single one of those calls. The preferential treatment in this league makes me sick. Ugh...

  • I definitely think that Rose needs to be more vocal or sell the foul more. Go the the John Stockton tapes and fling yourself all over the court any time someone touches you!

  • Lebron is a bad example. Now Doug, would you agree that Dwayne Wade would have gotten at very least three calls out of those clips? D. Wade goes to the hoop and uses that Eurostep of his to avoid contact and still gets the call half the time.

  • We all know Lebron uses steroids...

  • I realize that Rose is a quiet kid and I do understand that he doesn't gripe at the refs as much as most (although he is doing it more), but you would like to think that over time his demeanor of just playing the game will pay off for him, in that the refs will grow to respect a star who isn't carrying on all the time and will start giving him his share of calls. After all, as we all know you could blow the whistle on just about every play in the NBA, especially anything around the basket, so I believe that so much of it comes down to reputation, status and respect.
    I would LIKE to think that over time he'll benefit from his businesslike attitude, but of course we'll see...

  • If Rose can learn to initiate contact and still make his shots he'll be tough. Not sure which order to put them in but he needs to work on a 3 pt shot, his D and finishing after initiating contact. Then he'll be ridiculous...

  • Doug I'm agreeing and disagreeing all in one statement, I'm still stuck in the 80s and 90s when the rules were different and the game was called different, I think the new NBA and its new rules has made these newer players the superstars they are. No straight arms, no touching or looking at certain players or its a foul. I think Jordan and Bird would love to have their youth right now and play in this league versus the more physical league they had to play in. Needless to say I'm not on the lebron bandwagon just yet.

  • I think its a little bit of everyones fault. Rose is so athletic and good that ya i believe he doesnt get fouled alot...but when he goes in the lane and somebody is reaching in...that should be a foul almost everytime. Rose is so fast and athletic...its almost impossible to strip him clean in the lane.

    Vinny Del Negro is terrible...he doesnt yell at the refs enough, so those calls are easy for the refs....Vinny has no backbone out there. If a call really makes you angry, GET PISSED ABOUT IT!

    LeBron just plows over everybody lol...Deng got pissed at half time about that. Either take the charge or hit the gym and get big and dont let him Punk you like that anymore.

  • I agree Vinny should plant that Fouls Seed in the Refs mind before the start of the series or he should do it now after the 1st game. But,Vinny is probably one of the lowest paid coaches in the league. He doesn't want to lose a big chunk like 35K for yelling/criticizing the refs like Phil Jackson. Maybe if the Bulls Management have an arrangement that they will take care of Vinny's fines, he might do it..Wait...They want to fight him not support him:-)

  • i think we can all agree that derrick has been more aggressive taking it to the cup after he admitted that he generally would avoid contact... derrick just doesn't get the calls that other all-stars would at this point... so him avoiding contact makes a little more sense... look at westbrook in the laker game... he drove it regularly, and only got 4 ft attempts... he's not an official all-star, but it just shows that they aren't getting the calls, and as defense tightens up in the playoffs, the likelihood of getting calls goes down a bit... hope the refs stop swallowing their whistles...

  • The point isn't "LOOK AT ALL THESE BLATANT FOULS ROSE ISN'T GETTING CALLED FOR" - the point is "of all these borderline calls, Rose got only 1." They are mostly borderline, and some are probably not fouls. And Rose has to do a better job of selling contact when he gets it. But for him to only get one call all night, both in the of shooting and on the floor, isn't right either.

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