Does the White Sox getting Jake Peavy depress or inspire you?

I previously blogged about the trade when it was possible before and discussed Reinsdorf's aversion to spending on the Bulls relative to the White Sox as well.   Now Sox fans should be thrilled with this trade, but how about Bulls fans?

Does this enrage you that Ben Gordon wasn't good enough to spend on, but Jake Peavy was?  

Do you feel hope that if Reinsdorf can support this mediocre White Sox team that me may also support his mediocre Bulls team?

The Bulls could support 15 million in luxury tax payments a year
before their profitability fell to the typical level of the Chicago
White Sox.

That being said, I understand the saving cap room for 2010 plan very well.  I've pushed it for multiple years.   Getting a star next season is the best chance this team has at winning a title.  Ben Gordon improved our odds of attracting one relative to Kirk Hinrich, at least in my opinion, but opinions vary.

I just hope management doesn't use the cap space as a way to cheap out again.   Last time the Bulls spent big on Ben Wallace, they shuffled Tyson Chandler's contract out the back door because "he no longer fit".

The end result was a revenue neutral long term move that kept the Bulls away from the luxury tax barrier.   The Bulls need to spend on a big name FA next summer, but afterwards they need to spend some more on MLE targets to add to the team rather than find ways to stay revenue neutral.

The hard part for ownership will be spending the follow up money, because it will delve into the luxury tax for sure.   That's what it will take to win, and if the Bulls get LeBron, Wade, or Bosh, then we'll find out a year later when it comes time to use the MLE whether they were serious about titles or just serious about cashing checks.

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  • Peavy blows, but it should makes us Bulls fans feel good. If Rose becomes what we think he can and puts this franchise on his back, JR will step up and do what's needed to win. He's done it before with Rodman and stuff. IMO JR isn't the owner you want if you're looking at quick fixes and desparate moves. He's the owner you want when you know u have a winning team, he knows what to do

  • What I have heard time and time again is JR loves baseball and the White Sox and generally views the Bulls as business. I do think he would like to win, but at what expense? I know he went ove the Tax for Rodman and what not, but will he do it again? It's easy to when you have Jordan and you know your a contender, but now I don't know. I think much will be determined by how good Rose is and how good Jerry thinks he is. We will see, but I don't particulalry trust Jerry right now, especially after hearing his comments about the Wallace mistake.

  • Not that I follow the white sox very closely but this depresses me as a bulls fan. I don't think they are contenders with him. This however, will likely get them in the post season. Meanwhile JR is only willing to spend on a contender for the bulls.

  • First off, let's be careful not to make exact comparisons between baseball and basketball; the economics of both are different, if for no other reason than the lack of caps in baseball.

    I think you're being too negative on Peavy. I haven't really heard that his injury is a major long-term concern. Some people think he might come back in a few weeks, some not this year, but I haven't heard anyone suggest he won't be back to 100% next year.

    And his contract, while large, is not out of line for a pitcher of his caliber. Buerhle's contract is only about $6M cheaper over the next 3 years (Peavy is much cheaper this year, however).

    Also, the White Sox have a lot of large salary obligations coming off the books this year that they are not likely to repeat, so you could look at this deal as using up some of that money now instead of in free agency. Sort of a summer of 2009 plan instead of a 2010 plan. :)

    However you look at the merits of the plan, I think the lesson compared to the Bulls is that Reinsdorf is willing to let people he trusts do what they want. I think JR trusts Kenny Williams (and Ozzie Guillen) completely, and lets them do their jobs. And why wouldn't he? They brought the White Sox their first championship in over 80 years, and have kept the team competitive almost every since then.

    On the Bulls side, though, it seems that Reinsdorf doesn't trust the team he has in place. He continually jumps into negotiations over the GM. So, that's why you might be depressed, and the hope comes from hoping that with success comes trust, or that JR finds people he does trust. I think if that's going to happen it will come from the court, so the success of the team will dictate how things go.

    (Oh, and one last thing...you said in your linked post that the White Sox are not a winner now or in the future...call me a homer but I think you're dead wrong on that. GO GO WHITE SOX!)

  • In reply to Duke:

    I actually signed up for an account in order to respond to this post, but your comment pretty much nailed it.

    I would also add that perhaps the lack of a salary cap encourages an owner to take more chances. It's easier to get out from under a bad deal in baseball than it is in basketball. You can pick up some of the money, or throw in prospects. In basketball, every bad contract you have is eating up a part of the cap, preventing you from bringing in someone else, and making other teams unwilling to trade for them. In that scenario, I'd expect an owner to be a little gun-shy when offering players big money deals, as the cost of making a mistake is not only in money, but in the opportunity to improve your team in the future.

  • I'll tell you this, if Rose hasn't gotten a say in the past events, expect this kid to leave after this next contract. I'm saying it second and Scoop Jackson said it first.

  • Doug I didn't say Peavy was a quick fix or a desperate move which was my point. A lot of people want the quick fix, for example Okafor and guys like that. JR isn't that type of owner which I like.

  • This is yet another example of how he is willing to do and pay whatever it takes to win as the White Sox owner and as a Sox fan I am happy to have Reinsdorf and think the addition of Peavy could push them to the top of the division this year or next depending on when he comes back. Unfortunately he is the complete opposite when as the Bulls owner and as a Bulls fan I despise him as he is only concerned about achieving the biggest profit he can.

  • The entire premise of the move was to give the Sox a filthy rotation that alone will make the Sox world series contenders each of the next three seasons (if all goes well).

    If he comes back this year, that is butter. This was anything but a quick fix, it was the Sox taking advantage of the situation and getting a guy that typically would never be available.

    Peavy is one of the 5 best pitchers in baseball and the Sox got him by giving up one top 50 prospect (Poreda), one young starter (Richard), one borderline top 100 prospect (Carter, but Carter is moving up prospect lists) and a guy that failed to make it in the Sox pen (Russell).

    Thats a no-brainer. They also have over 40M in contracts coming off of there books this season.

  • JR has constantly said he loves the Sox more than the Bulls. I do too (Baseball is my first love, football second, basketball third). But ask Sox fans and most think he doesn't spend enough.

    I'd counter and say JR runs the Sox like a business too, he's a business man and he isn't going to lose a ton of money every year.

    He paid Jordan big time money so I really am hard pressed to see how he hasn't spent money on the Bulls.

  • Wait, how is mediocrity awarded in baseball. 4 teams make the playoffs compared to 8 in each league. It used to be only two. If you ask me it means the 4 best teams typically play things out.

  • Different sport, different rules, different financial realities.

    Peavey by the way is a far more accomplished player in his sport than Gordon is in his. Cy Young award trumps 6th man of the year by orders of magnitude. If Gordon were the equivalent of Peavey he would still be a Bull making Deng or more type money.

    Pitching also happens to be the "defense" of baseball. Gordon is the sugger who hits under .250 and strikes out 180 times a season, but hits a game winning homer once or twice a season.

    Teams that win in the playoffs, win with consistent, dominant starting pitching. YOu can do it with 2 guys, but 3 is optimal.

    I wanted the Cubs to land Peavey this past offseason, and I was totally dissappointed that the Cubs weren't even mentioned in the Halladay trade rumors.

    I am an old school Cub fan, so I hate the Sox, but it was a good move to try to get the Sox to the next level, a bit of a financial risk, but they will never pick up that crazy $22 million option in the final year of the contract.

  • In reply to BigWay:

    First off this is not about Gordon but rather that Reinsdorf is consistently willing to spend more on the Sox then he is the Bulls and is seemingly determined to be the most profitable team in the NBA every year. However if you think Gordon is effectively Adam Dunn then you should focus less media coverage, and look at more games and statistics as he is a very efficient scorer and not a bad defender who will be missed.

  • In reply to MADman24:

    I watch and TiVo every game, and have been doing so since before there was TiVo, and even before all the games were on TV. I listened to nearly evey Bulls game during the Dick Motta, Jerry Sloan, Norm Van LIer, Bob Love, Chet Walker, Tom Boerwinkle teams of the early 70's. Gordon would not have played for those Bulls, Sloan and Van Lier would have killed him.

    He is one of the worst defenders in the history of the game, I only need eyeballs to see this, not advanced statistical metrics.

    I rewind plays constantly during live action. If all fans did this, and focused on Godons play for one entire game, especially when he is attemting to do anything but shoot, you would understand why I can't stand the guy as a basketball player.

    He is a circus act, not a basketball player. By the way Adam Dunn has made the All Star game, BG hasn't even sniffed it.

  • In reply to BigWay:

    I don't understand your anology. BG is niether inefficent or turnover prone. Why would he be the equivlent to a poor hitter that strikes out a lot. BG's efficency is actually one of his strengths. He is not a volume scorer, he would be a .300 hitter who puts up 30-40hr and a 100+ rbi a year if you could transfer the stats. He is not Puljos but almost every team in the league could find a spot for a guy like that.

  • In reply to TheStig:

    A .300 hitter, 30-40 home runs and 100+ rbi guy has never in the history of the game failed to make an AllStar game, and if he did it for 5-10 years is a guaranteed first ballot hall of famer..

    The number of 20.7 ppg scorers who have never made the All Star team even once is so long that nobody can even remember thier names.

    BG has never made an All Star team in a league in which it is easier to make one, and never will. The only way Gordon sees the Hall of Fame is the same way that you or I do, buy a ticket.

    The fact that you mention Puljos in the same conversation with Gordon is beyond delusional. Gordon is at best like Ron Santo(no wait he won a gold glove or 6) no more like Alfonso Soriano(streaks and no D), after steroids.

    I cannot thank you enough for proving my point on how badly the Gordon loving brigade overestimates what Gordon does and his value to winning.

    Puljos, Oh my God.

  • I'm still missing it but I'm not really a baseball guy. I would think mediocrity is more rewarded in basketball since more than half the teams make the playoffs every year.

  • I mean, seriously, can you imagine if we got Garnett or Gasol and then Stern gave us the 1st. pick in the 2008 draft?

  • I guess I kinda get what you are saying because if a team gets hot, that can really carry them.

  • Yeah, I can see your point of the playoffs being a bigger oppurtunity for the bottom seed but thats mainly just because they have less teams that make it. The winning percentage of 4 seeds in the nba is probably around the same as in baseball.

  • "regardless of how mediocre the White Sox are"

    You say this, despite his pattern of only being willing to approve big money deals/trade for high salary players when the White Sox have a serious chance at making the post season? Every time the White Sox have a made a trade to bring in a high salary player, they've been either in 1st or 2nd place in their division, or within at least a handful of games of making the post-season. Also, as you've stated, any team that makes the playoffs in baseball has a shot at winning the championship. Therefor, investing in a team that can simply make the playoffs is a much better bet in baseball than it is in basketball.

  • In reply to Greddy:

    Mike, good point, I am a Cub fan, don't much follow the Sox, but it does seem to me that Rdorf has made moves when he felt that the Sox were on the cusp of winning, and unfortunately for Cub fans it paid off at least once.

  • I listened to a interview with Slam and Derrick. It honestly sounds like he wants a change of cast because he knows that winning isn't knocking on his door with the current guys. Seriously, he said at the draft press conference, too. I think if we don't get the right guys whom wants to win and not worry about adding another million to their pocket, Derrick will leave.

  • This is not a good apples to oranges comparison, because NBA teams in general have higher winning percentages than MLB teams. For example, in 2008 the team with the most wins was the Angels with 100, which is not particularly low for any year; that gave them a .602 winning percentage. 8 teams in the NBA had a higher winning percentage than that this year.

    http://www.nba.com/standings/team_record_comparison/conferenceNew_Std_Div.html
    http://www.mlb.com/mlb/standings/index.jsp?ymd=20080930

    But overall, I get your point. A team that gets hot pitching can carry itself to the World Series title sometimes (for example, the 2006 Cardinals). The same can happen in the NFL (substitute defense for pitching; in fact, in a lot of ways pitching is defense in MLB). But I can't remember a similar thing happening in the NBA (although the Starks-Ewing Knicks got close that one year).

  • One team plays 41 home games the other plays 81

    One team can sell 22 thousand tickets per game the other 45-50 thousand.

    One league has a defined salary structure, the other doesn't.

    One team has 13 players, the other 25

    So we are comparing apples and oranges, or in this case Maybachs and Bentleys.

    Baseball, is a bigger business than the NBA. In general the the bigger a business gets, the larger should be your gross profit Number. That is why EXXONS $40 billion in profit was not nearly as insane as it seemed, they are in the biggest business in the world, they should have the largest gross profit number.

    Plus if the Bulls had spent money the ways the fans wanted we would be a luxury tax strapped team of midgets who have no shot of getting out of the first round. Pau Gasol on this Bulls team would have looked like on overpaid bum, he needed Kobe and Phil to act like he deserved his contract, which by the way he still doesn't.

    And finally, I don't believe that we ever had a deal on the table for either Kobe or Garnett, that thier respective teams were willing to make, probably not in the case of Gasol also.

    No fan of RDorf but it is far easier to spend more money in a non salary structure league than in one that is both capped and taxed. In one you can afford to spend your way out of mistakes(see Yankees, RedSox) in the other you are stuck with and handicapped by the garbage for years.

  • As usual that depends, if that $20-30 was spent paying guys like Marbury or Steve Francis, or Jermaine Oneal, or even Tracey McGrady, or Eddie Curry and on and on and on., we would have accomplished nothing, just like we did with the Big Bum.

    Plus I wonder how much of the difference comes from the fact that Rdorf owns(50%)of the United Center, but pays rent for Sox park. His profits could well be United Center profits not necessarily Bulls profits.

  • I was in favor of getting Gasol, but as I recall the price to us was pretty high, it seemed like 3 starters, and maybe we had to take back other bad contracts. In fact I probably like Gasol's game better than Bosh's. With no Kobe in house would it have been worth it.

    But even if we had acquired him, I think that given our lack of a true superstar he would have continued to look soft and Bulls fans would have turned on him. Thus to this Bulls team, which wouldn't have Rose he would tend to be overpaid.

    The history of giving max contracts to non top 10 players is filled with far more Marburys and Francis's than Kobe's, Duncan's and Garnetts. So the argument can certainly be made that it is never worth paying max money for a guy who isn't top 10 or 12 in the league, especially when you don't already have one of the top 10 or 12 guys.

  • I give Rose a small pass for being a Rookie and having to deal with all the responsibility of being a point guard as a rookie.

    However, if he is as bad and disinterested a defender as Gordon by his 5th season then I will be extemely dissappointed and critical of him.

    I am somewhat perplexed by an athlete of Rose's caliber being so bad on D. Maybe he learned it from watching Gordons effort on D, or lack thereof.

    Doug, you seem like a reasonable guy, I bet I would enjoy watching a game with you with extensive use of Tivo, maybe a Bulls/Pistons Game.

  • History proves that spending the money wisely(not even perfectly) is extremely difficult to do, even for the best of organizations.

    The more often that you do it the more likely you are to screw it up and become the Knicks. In baseball you become the Yankees, but at least if you have it you can keep spending it. In basketball you don't have that luxury.

    At this point I can't think of any money or players that the Bulls didn't spend or acquire that would have led to a championship, or even an appearance in the Eastern Conference Finals.

    It basically takes a lot of luck, and a judicious use of money when your window is open.

    I believe that RDorf will spend the money when/if we get to the open window, which will require at least one more stroke of luck.

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