More thoughts from summer league chatter

I'm back from Vegas amazed at how fast the two days went by, but on the plane ride home I remembered a few more nuggets in my discussions with Gar Forman as well as other summer league chatter.
When talking about the Salmons / Nocioni swap he made the comment (rough quote) "Anytime you get the best player and give up the worst contract in a deal, you've really won".  Not that I think there's much doubt about that, but it certainly was a fair way to sum up the situation.

I think it also relates to the Hinrich/Tyrus for Boozer swap.   Even if the Bulls get nothing else back and that deal is on the table, you could say the same thing.   Bulls get the best player, give up the worst contract.

Forman also discussed how much the team liked Nocioni as a player and person, but he still referred to him as the worst contract in that deal.   I felt that sentiment stikes the appropriate cord with most Bulls fans who appreciated his hard nose style of play, but also realized he needed to move on for the good of the franchise.

I've come to the conclusion that at the same price level, the Bulls like Kirk Hinrich more than Ben Gordon.   Several peole discussing how improtant Kirk's leadership is for the team, and who believe the team would really struggle if he were to be traded. 

This sentiment was strong last summer as well, so it's not hindsight on Gordon leaving.   Everyone within the organization likes Kirk more. At the same price level, I like Ben Gordon more, but I'm not privy to the locker room mechanics, and I have to believe there might be something to it.  As it's not one guy who's told me this, but virtually everyone around the team.

One source told me mid season that Gordon basically wanted nothing to do with Rose while Kirk was trying hard to help him improve even while out with injury.   Gordon's a consumate professional when it comes to work ethic, but from what I gather, he never really went the extra mile for the team.   That could easily be due to his contract dispute and hurt feelings.  We'll never know.

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Tags: bulls, chatter, chicago, league, nba, summer


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  • Never heard that about Gordon before Doug though I remember being torn apart on Real GM for suggesting it looked like Gordon was pouting on the bench on nights when Rose had big games.

  • Hey Doug, when you say Ben wanted nothing to do with Derrick, do you mean didn't like playing with him? Or is that as in didn't reach out to him, invite him to practice together, that sort of thing? Don't know why it matters since Ben is gone either way, but it does a little, you know?

  • I have always contended that Gordon was a silent cancer on the team. Both because of his selfish play, especially as it relates to lack of effort on any play that didn't end with him shooting, and also because of his aloofness and lack of personality.

    He is not a chemistry guy, much like the complaints that we hear about Iverson, who though much more talented than Gordon I never cared for either.

    It is after all a team game, and you can be a bad teammate without being a raging jerk. I believe that this is why the entire Bulls organization prefers Hinrich to Gordon, and I suspect that the players feel the same way.

    If you use John Hollinger's per statistic, which only measures offensive ability versus the NBA average at your position, Gordons value is not much greater than Hinrich, or the average NBA 2 guard. This doesn't even factor in his extremely below average defense and his below average team chemistry, as well as the fact that Hinrich can play both guard positions. The Statistics suggest that Gordon will not be that hard to replace.

    Gordon is most likely a very self centered human being which leads to him being an individual performer, and not a great teammate.

    I think that the Bulls will prove to be a better team this season without him, causing the loons at DBagaBull to rant all season long that despite the evidence they are actually worse.

  • Personally, I value Kirk Hinrich. I love the leadership he provides, mostly by example. I can see why the organization values Kirk, even though I think they overvalue him a bit.

    The thing I don't get is why management seems to undervalue Gordon so much. The tidbit about "wanting nothing to do with Rose" is b/s if you ask me. Even if they didn't have a great friendship, who cares? On the court, they were great together, and that's all I ultimately care about.

    If one wants to talk intangibles, I'll favor Gordon all day. I definitely think Kirk has the edge in locker room intangibles. But I prefer the intangible ability to put the ball in the basket at the end of games, when it most counts.

    Finally, I've heard rumors that Kirk isn't happy with a backup PG role (and rightfully so IMO). Still, from an outside perspective, he has been very professional about it, which is great. In the same way, Gordon wasn't happy with the money we wanted to give him. Yet he was very professional about it as well, not allowing that to interfere with his play on the court. Kirk is really more of an organizational guy, but I would hardly consider Gordon's off-the-court behavior a problem.

    The note about us really struggling if we lost Kirk seemed strange to me, when given in a "valuing Kirk vs Gordon" article. While nothing is black and white to me, this situation is pretty simple. Gordon's a SG, Kirk is a PG. Rose is our PG of the future, and Kirk is paid too much to be a backup (purely a backup PG, as I don't think playing minutes as a SG is beneficial for us) PG. I just think we will struggle much more with the loss of Gordon than we would if we lost Kirk.

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