Occupy: A Mother and Daughter Debate

Report · 10:22am

R u there?

Report · 10:22am

Yeah why?

10:25am

Chicago now bloggers will be jamming the servers on December 5th at 10am our time.  We are all posting  our ideas, thoughts pro or con on Occupy movements.  Also there are knitting sites on Facebook already delivering knitted items to Occupy sites.  I'll send yarn after the 1st.  Please video your knitting and whatever you wish to say.  Any friends or students want to join?

Why the current interest in knitting? I'll answer what I think about Occupy after that.

Report · 10:27am

Don't need to knit. It started as an idea to supply stuff for the people occupying in cold climates.

Report · 10:28am

I see. You don't need to send yarn -- I have plenty here. I have an idea for a scarf, but I need to play with a pattern when I have time. I  don't know if my internet connection will allow me to post video. I need to look into that. I also need to decide how I feel about the Occupy movement. I'm more of a "vacate" person -- I talk with my feet.

Report · 10:30am

I get that but so many of us can't just vacate. The other issue is the economic injustice goes way beyond our borders. Have you read Shock Doctrine?

Report · 10:31am
No, I've only heard of it.

We took it out of the library 5 times. I just found out a friend was given the book by the author and will give it to us. I think you would really enjoy the book.  It's an economic history lesson that is scary.

Report · 10:35am

I've read a lot of those in my tenure. I suspect most of what it would say I can guess. My feeling is that the economics of staying put have little prospect in a global economy. We're transitioning to something truly global. The rich will be rich no matter what the systems evolves into.

 

Report · 10:37am

The rich will probably remain rich. The issue is does it have to be such an enormous gap that we recreate the fall of Rome and other civilizations and governments that crumble when the masses can't stand it anymore. I've been researching the Mondragon model for over a year now. I know our government (corporations) will not support cooperatives but the movement is growing in the U.S. A representative from Mondragon is active through MAPA group here. They just set up a cooperative Mondragon style in Ohio.

 

Report · 10:39am

The Mondragon model is an old idea.

Report · 10:39am

But it's still working and growing.

 

Report · 10:41am

Then I would hope that proves my point about the Occupy movement. Learning to protest with our feet is a more effective way of dealing with what is happening. It's kinda like making free market capitalism work the way you want it to. So why am I knitting a scarf again...? There is a lot more I could say, but in general I think protest movements are more about emotion than solution.

Report · 10:45am

I might agree except for my witness of the protests of the 60's. Occupy is getting more coordinated. I just got an email from Occupy Canada by way of Occupy Chi. They are forming a cohesive web site for long term planning of economic, environmental, military industrial complex, etc. projects including major boycotts, move your money from big banks, etc.

Report · 10:48am

It is my understanding of the 60's that tempers my interest in protests, Maman. I think the effectiveness of some protests were not as great as many of their participants like to think. The long-term changes came through legislative and judicial action, only some of which was affected by protest. Ultimately, the protesters decided they needed to eat and became Yuppies.

 

Report · 10:49am

That is true but there would not have been legislation without the public push. The Buppies(black yuppies) were a result of being able to vote, go to school and get jobs.

Report · 10:53am

And now I ask to what end. I'm still on the fence about it. So many of them work on Wall Street now. That being said,don't think the real issue of global economic change is being addressed. Until it is, these crises will be quite cyclical and some countries, like the U.S., will lose bigger than others when the wheel turns poorly. I worry about that for my friends and family. I am not sure how I am going to handle it for myself yet.

Report · 10:58am

Are you familiar with Brooksley Born? She attempted to convince then President Clinton that the derivative market was going to bring our economy to a crash because of the lack of oversight. He listened to Greenspan instead. Since then Greenspan has apologized to congress. Yep, he admits he made a mistake in not wanting regulations. So sad,too bad but I bet his money is safely tucked away. There is a clear and present danger in allowing the markets to go without regulation and scrutiny. That being said I think your worry is well founded. We're trying to figure an escape route as well. We are also trying to learn as many ways as possible to provide real necessities locally.

 

Report · 11:03am

Greenspan is wrong only in retrospect, and it's not the first the U.S. has banked on a dumb economic idea. This is why I didn't buy a house using a bubble loan in the early 2000's and didn't invest in mutual fund markets in the 1990's. No one else complained because they didn't think much past a few years. Sadly...many Americans brought this on themselves. Wall Street is evil, but Main Street is greedy. Now they are trying to blame each other for what happened.

 

Report · 11:08am

I think Main Street tends to rely on common sense, which as you know isn't common. It's more like "sheep"sense. Most people follow the Judas goat and for many reasons. One being lack of information. How can you make any reasonable deductions based on Fox news? The greedy people were those who hopped on board of the derivatives train without understanding of the consequences. I can assure you that few of those people were part of the 99% then. They may be now because they also lost a bunch of money. Just recently a friend revealed that her husband who was a CEO of a large corp has lost most of his retirement.

Chat Conversation End

11:13am

Lost you in the cloud

Sorry about that -- someone came over.

Report · 12:43pm

Got to feed us lunch. How long are you going to be available?

Report · 12:45pm

I dunno. A couple of hours I guess. I'm doing research for school.

Report · 12:49pm

I'll be back in about an hour. BTW I would like to use this conversation as my blog post for the Occupy day. Is that ok with you?

Report · 12:49pm

If you want --- if you felt I said something useful, sure, go ahead.

 

Report · 1:27pm

I just got an email from Progressive. They are delivering a petition to our mayor to allow the Occupy Chicago people to remain at their spot. Early this morning the police raided the Occupy at Liberty Plaza.
According to a person on site the police dumped their belongings in garbage
trucks. Are we devolving into a police state?

 

Report · 1:28pm

Isn't this what you asked after Selma? Kent State?

Yes, (sigh). I wonder if we will ever learn.  After Kent State so many people who hadn't gotten involved in the anti-Viet Nam issues got angry and then involved. I hope we don't have to see a repeat of the violence.

Report · 1:31pm

I don't know. One of the few things that seem to galvanize a nation is violence. I hope it does not come to that more than it had in Oakland.

 

Report · 1:33pm

When you get a chance take a look at Brooksley Born http://to.pbs.org/287K2s.
I'd like to know your thoughts. Oh are you going to blog with us at ChicagoNow?
We are recruiting other bloggers to join the Occupy: Flash Mob Blogging.

I don't think so. I can barely keep up with my own blog! If I write
something relevant on it, then you can certainly use it.

Report · 1:36pm

That's a deal. Is there any discussion in Beirut on the Occupy Movement?

Report · 1:39pm

No. Beirut is in an Arab Spring country -- that is what is on the news. The issues in the Middle East are very
different. They're "occupations" are much much messier. Lebanon is pretty quiet. Honestly, the Occupy movement is not really noteworthy here as a protest movement given what is happening here. People in the U.S. and Europe are more focused on it. Most people shrug at it here.

Report · 1:43pm

That's interesting. I would have thought with all the grievances the Middle East has against American overly zealous capital take overs they would be very interested. It appears that the Iraq campaign to privatize and own Iraq didn't go as planned because of Arab thought and resistance. True Cheney and buddies made a fortune before most of the cronies had to pull out but there aren't any WalMarts and Micky D's there at least.

Report · 1:45pm

People don't have a grievance with American capitalism -- they (have) a grievance with American imperialism and interference in the region. Iraq is already owned, and other dictatorships are falling that make American interests less executable. And there is a McDs in Baghdad. There are plenty of them all over the Middle East, actually.The Middle is HEAVY into money, and governments are regularly corrupt. What the U.S. is going through is minor compared to say, Lebanon. In terms of corruption I mean.

 

 

Report · 1:50pm

I just read that the Micky D's are on bases
but that's not all that important. The point you make about American
Imperialism is on target. The problem, in my view, extends to corrupt capitalism as in corporation control of U.S. government, the military industrial complex and our use of military to encroach and meddle for corporate gain.

 

 

Report · 1:51pm

That is not Lebanon's issue though. :)

All of that may be true, but Americans have,to a great extent chosen the culture they live in. They are claiming helplessness now when the going is tough. This is unfortunate -- it undermines the power of the people.

 

 

Report · 1:52pm

So tell me about Lebanon. I know I'm glad they are not rioting in the streets. After all my child is there.

 

 

Report · 1:53pm

They have rioted a couple of times...but that's what the average taxi-driver strike looks like here.

 

 

Report · 1:53pm

OMG

 

 

Report · 1:54pm

Political violence is pretty average. Where I live it's quiet. In fact, a person here is more likely to stop you on the street to give you the cell phone you dropped rather than steal it. People leave their cars unlocked and their motor scooters with the keys in the ignition.
There is little mundane crime.

 

 

Report · 1:56pm

I didn't get a chance to finish reading your last blog. I did notice you mentioned the messiness at home.Take that back I had reached the end. I think I'll stick it in my Occupy blog.
Don't you want to ask yourself the question as to why in the name of all that is holy would the Brits wish to emulate us?

 

 

Report · 2:00pm

Which blog? I guess what I am saying is that
what is considered bad is relative. My Lebanese friends who hear stories of the ghetto are more freaked out by that when they lived during the civil war.They see the violence in the ghetto as unpredictable and unavoidable.I see what they went through as more intense. In terms of everyday danger though? They're pretty comparable.

 

 

Report · 2:06pm

Ah once again I return to "free trade". You are more familiar with the opium, tea triangles of our past.
Right now we have a thriving business in the drug trade as part of our economic ladder. Illegal drugs are huge business. That business again leads back to the industrial prison system. We had more crime during prohibition(booze another drug) than after the repeal. If the government was to legalize
drugs today and they were sold in Walgreens, most of us still would not buy them but at least they could be taxed and we could have more treatment options. We would probably also have reductions in violence.

 

 

Report · 2:07pm

It worked in Switzerland.

 

 

Report · 2:07pm

Ah a good point!But then again look how many folks at the
top of the drug food chain would lose money.

 

 

Report · 2:09pm

Perhaps. But again...the top benefits because the bottom partakes. Switzerland works because drug use is no longer
appealing to users -- to be an addict is a stigma.

I don't blame the top for being rich. I blame them for being opportunistic.

 

 

Report · 2:15pm

As do I. I think the take away from our correspondence is just that. The 1% is often opportunistic. In New Orleans hurricane Katrina was used to remove poor people from their homes and take over public schools and push privatized for profit charters. The tsunami moved poor fishing villages away from ocean front property their families had owned for
generations to be replaced by gleaming hotels with $5000 per night cottages that oddly enough are built to look like fishing villages. I know there are a lot of different voices out there Occupying but I think the thing we all share is a disgust of the opportunists who use disaster or create disaster to make more money. They do this without consideration of people or planet. It's only profit that matters.

 

 

Report · 2:17pm

I guess. I would point out that the villagers who lost their lives in the tsunami in Indonesia mostly died because when the waters receded they went out to collect fish instead of head for higher ground. Opportunism has drawbacks too.

There is something to be said for being sensible for the greater good.

 

 

Report · 2:20pm

The few that went out to fish are much like those of us who don't read, study or listen. Like them we too will drown. I
think the blog you wrote said something like that (ignorant electorate)?

 

 

Report · 2:22pm

Mob politics.
ignorant electorate.
The "meek" who fail to learn the lessons that meekness teaches you. I think when the Beatitudes were written;
most people misunderstood "Blessed are the meek," actually. I may be wrong, but so many religions talk about humility and wisdom that there must be a system related to it. The only thing I can think of right now is that Occupy and Arab Spring are in a sense real demonstrations of what being meek can do: meekness collectivizes humanity at key and crucial times. Most of us want to feign or seek strength and power.
I'm beginning to wonder if that is a good idea.

 

 

Report · 2:26pm

Is it going on 11:00 PM for you?

 

 

Report · 2:27pm

10:30. I'm working on my assignment sheets,

 

 

Report · 2:28pm

Your last statement was so profound. I want to close the blog with it. It's a question we all should be asking. Sleep well and know I love you.

 

 

Report · 2:28pm

I dunno if it is or not. It's unformed.

I love you too.

Chat Conversation End

 

Comments

Leave a comment
  • While I think OWS is pure rubbish, I'm just impressed to see a mother and daughter constructively chatting with each other for over 3 hours in this day and age. Wish more parents and children would follow this lead.

  • I second that opinion...rubbish..great post though
    Lucid Dream Machines

Leave a comment