A League of Her Own

Cubs Suspend Z Indefinitely, I Propose Suspending Front Office Instead

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Photo courtesy Chicago Tribune.

Where to start?

Jim Hendry just confirmed to the media that, following his meltdown in the Cubs' dugout, Carlos Zambrano has been suspended indefinitely from the Cubs. Judging from the reaction on Twitter, everyone seems to be applauding this move.

Everyone but me.

If you missed the fireworks, it went down something like this:

After giving up 4 runs in the bottom of the 1st, Z stalked back to the dugout and starting uloading (about something). He was screaming, yelling and stomping around. At some point, he and DLee started yelling at each other and had to be separated. Whether Z was upset with Lee for oleing a groundball that went for a double OR Lee told just to "shut the f*ck up" first is anyone's guess. Z sat in the dugout for a while, then was sent home by Lou. Reportedly, Z managed to get in a few more swears at a camera crew on the way out of the ballpark.

And so. .  . um . . .  what am I missing?

I know there's a huge contingent in this city that loves the Ryan Theriots and Mike Fontenots of the world. This group, led by the likes of Paul Sullivan and Phil Rogers, have been on Z like white on rice ever since Milton Bradley left town. This afternoon, I already saw the throngs calling Big Z "an embarrassment" and applauding his suspension. To these people I say this:

Are you crazy?

Look, no one wins awards in baseball for being a nice guy, or a good teammate or a likeable short white guy who sometimes gets on base. You win baseball games with TALENT. And Z has more of it in his little finger than most of the rest of the roster put together. Yes, he had a bad season last year. Yes, he's never won multiple Cy Young awards like everyone thought he would by this point in his career. But the bottom line is that Z is one of the most talented pitchers in baseball, one who barely let out a peep when his team sent him to the bullpen for a month, who is effusive in his love for Chicago, and who (gasp!) actually CARES that his team is the epitome of suck right now.

I don't know about you, but when Lou said that the Cubs would not "tolerate" Z's behvior, I laughed out loud. So they'll "tolerate" an offense incapable of scoring runs. They'll "tolerate" having John Grabow and Jeff Samardzija blowing lead after lead in the bullpen. They'll "tolerate" losing decade after decade.

But heaven forbid one of the few talented players on the team shows any emotion about the fact that this team can't beat the Pirates or the Mariners. Or that he call out any of his teammates for not playing up to their ability. And frankly, Derrek Lee, Aramis Ramirez, and a whole host of other players have not lived up to their ability this season. Personally, I'm glad Z unloaded on them. As far as I'm concerned, the way this team his played in the first three months of this season is FAR more embarrassing than anything Z did today.

What's worse, for the second year in a row, Jim Hendry has completely decimated a player's trade value with an "indefinite suspension." I think we're all happy that the Milton Bradley trade worked out the way it did, but that was sheer, unadulterated luck after Hendry sent Bradley home for the season, rendering him virtually untradeable for all but the worst reclamation projects.

Now he's doing the same to Z.

Comcast is reporting that the Cubs players were very happy with Z's behavior. Frankly, I couldn't care less how a team hitting 20th in the majors out of 30 teams in average and 24th out of 30 teams in runs scored in the majors feel. The fact that Jeff Baker, Mike Fontenot, Koyie Hill, and Kosuke Fukudome are UNHAPPY with Z really bothers me not at all. Because if we're all being honest, unless Z was insulting his teammates' mothers, wives, or children, he was probably justified in whatever he said. When DLee gets his average above .233, I might start caring about his feelings again.

The front office put this miserable excuse for a team together, despite red flags with many of the players that were visible from the international space station. Yet they are shocked (SHOCKED!) when one of their most talented, competitive players finally loses his mind in the face of (yet another) uninspired, apathetic loss. I'm not sure what's worse: the losing or the lobotomized look on most of this team's faces while it's happening.

If the Tiger Woods saga has taught us anything, it's the the Ryne Sandbergs and Andre Dawsons of this world are few and far between. Cubs fans are going to have to decide if they want a giant beer (and macaroni) garden of a ballpark with a bunch of mediocre players who are "good guys" and are likeble, or if they want to win badly enough to ride out the rough spots with the most talented, but often less-than-angelic, players.

The way I see it, for the first time this season, someone on this team (including the manager) got fired up about something. This is what the fans have been screaming for since mid-April.

I'll stand with Z.

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170 Comments

Umbra said:

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Carlos Zambrano actually had a pretty good 2009. Other than that, I agree with almost everything here. Behavior like this is pretty stupid from Z, but I don't think it warrants an indefinite suspension.

Ed Nickow said:

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From Hendry's comments, it sounds like the "indefinite" part of the suspension is just that they don't know the timeline for the "investigation" the GM suggested was required by MLB and the Players' Union.

A suspension that lasts a couple of starts would probably be appropriate. Certainly a rotation lacking Carlos Zambrano for a week will not diminish whatever infinitesimal chance the Cubs still have for post-season play.

go1demp1go said:

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I'm sorry, but I can't believe it has taken this long for someone on the team to get angry. We saw Silva get a little angry when he played against the White Sox, and frankly I liked it. It is about time the players show some emotion. Maybe Big Z and Silva weren't the right people to show emotion, but I agree with Bob Brenly---the team has been a bunch of Dead@sses. ....


The people that should have been showing emotion (Pinnella, Lee, and others) haven't stepped up to the plate. Pinnella has been Mr. Zen all season. Is that working? No. We need emotion. Pinnella used to have it, but he lost it. Pinnella should be the one yelling, but he's not. I'm glad Z did it. Not the best situation, but if Pinnella can't do it, and the team leaders won't do it. Someone needs to. ....


I am ticked at Pinnella....Taking Z out because he showed some freaken emotion after a bad inning....Even Len and Bob were happy to see some emotion...Calling the team a bunch of emotionless dead@sses for the past 2 months. ....


Then Pinnella takes Z out after 1 inning. Yes he let 4 runs score, but he is coming off his best start of the season, and we all know that Z normally has his worst innings right at the beginning of the game. He should have been left in for the 2nd inning and then if he still struggled have considered taking him out. ...


But he wasn't taken out for the bad 1st inning. He was taken out for showing emotion. True he shouldn't have lost it, but Pinnella should have, and he should have lost it a long time ago. Doesn't anyone remember that in the past when the team wasn't doing so hot, and then Pinnella lost it and bam, the team started to perform again? Now he is mr. cool and the team is just that -cool- They need to be hot. ...


Don't suspend Big Z. Suspend Pinnella. Not just for today, but for all around poor management of his team this season. ...


I wouldn't be surprised if Big Z asks to be traded to a team that can appreciate emotion--I'll renew my MLB subscription and watch their games. I'm sick of watching a team that looses day in and day out and just shrugs their shoulders and are waiting for next year to be better. ....


I'll still be a Cubs fan until the day I die, but I want to see a team that plays with emotion. Win or lose, show some emotion.

Ed Nickow said:

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I say suspend him
There should be consequences
For such behavior

But don't pack his bags
Zambrano is not Bradley
He blames the right guys

I mostly agree, Julie. It's nice to see emotions, and Carlos is arguably correct about the double getting by Lee. We've all complained about lack of effort. But Zambrano did get tagged for a three-run homer, so he has to take some of the blame himself - and perhaps he was as mad at himself as he was at others, But there's a time and place for such tirades. Dressing down your teammates in public is no way to reverse the negativity that has possessed this Cubs team. I hope this incident doesn't end like the Bradley affair.

JulieDiCaro said:

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But I guess we don't know exactly what he was saying. If he was yelling at himself and then happened to yell at Lee, too, I completely agree with him.

If he was just unloading on everyone else, it shows that he's tempermental and has a lack of self-awareness, but I don't think it warranted being sent home and certainly not being suspended.

Ed Nickow said:

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Lou's comments after the game gave me the impression that he was trying to avoid an "incident" in the clubhouse after the game. When emotions are high, perhaps a "time out" is in order.

Also, it sounded like Hendry suggested the suspension is mandated while the MLB and Players' Union investigate. I have no way to knowing how accurate that claim might be.

Cubear said:

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get em outta here.......GET EM OUTTA HERE!

PsyMar1 said:

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I once again propose that the Cubs release all their players, forfeit their games for the rest of the season, and try to rebuild through the draft (hah!).

gravedigger said:

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Can I say for one second that I am seriously, seriously in favor of this idea, and it might be the second best all day (after suspending the front office)

rudym55 said:

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Agree wholeheartedly.

JulieDiCaro said:

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I'm just incredulous--the Cubs put together a team that everyone knew was going to suck, then they get upset when the one guy who actually CARES about winning explodes the same way all the fans have done at the lack of effort by this team.

What did they think was going to happen?
Oh right--they thought this team was going to win the World Series. LOL

MB21 said:

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Cubs fans: want Lou to get angry and throw a fit to get ejected.

Cubs fans: angry at Zambrano for getting angry and throwing a fit.

I know you don't agree with many of the things I say about Cubs fans, but it's those kind of things that just irritate me. There's always a double standard. Always! Whether is down racial lines (scrappy white guy fan favorite) or something like this, it happens all the time.

JulieDiCaro said:

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Agree. It's ridiculous.

Cubear said:

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Zambrano dows not know his limitations. He throws meatballs and blames his teammates for not diving. Derik Lee does not deserve to be confronted in public like that. I can tell that Zambrano is not wanted. Cancer

gingiant said:

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You mean a white guy cant be a favorite because he is white?

MB21 said:

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Not at all. I'm talking more about how guys like Theriot, Eckstein and Erstad become fan favorites when they are pretty bad at baseball. People like to root for people that remind them of themselves. Most baseball fans are white. Most baseball fans are smaller than the average ballplayer and consider their physical tools more similar to guys like Theriot. So for no decent reason guys like Theriot become fans favorite even though they aren't very good.

cadarnell said:

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brilliant julie ... just brilliant ... I've been saying a lot of the same things since it happened today. I think Z was wrong, but for some reason I think the old saying "I'd rather burn out than rust out" fits him perfectly .. At least he's out there giving it his all everyday, every game ... and when things are going bad, he's pissed ... hanng in there Big Z ... you still got a lot of good pitching to go in your career. WAKE UP CUBBIES!!!! ... YOUR GETTING YOUR BRAINS BEAT IN!!!!!!!!

Alex Quigley said:

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Totally wrong. I'll save all the reasons why for ChicagoNow Radio on WGN Radio 720, tomorrow morning at 11am!

JulieDiCaro said:

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(rolls eyes)

YOU'RE wrong.

baturkey said:

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I'm glad that someone on this team still gives a damn.

gravedigger said:

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Exactamente

Darrylx77 said:

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Carlos Zambrano, you are my hero. Even Bob Brenly agree with you. He called the Cubs a dead azz team! These guys walk around and play like zombies.

How many times has Lou Pinella blown up on the Feild. I am so tired of Lou being a hypocrite when it comes to Zambrano or even Bradley when they blow up.

I think Derrick Lee has been a great player for the Cubs, but he is playing with no passion. I am glad that Zambrano yelled at him. I am sure that there are a few million Cub fans that want to yell at Lou, Jim Hendry, Randy Wells, Ryan Theriot, Fuckadome, Grabow, and even Ricketts.

Zambrano, As a fan of the Chicago Cubs for over forty years,I approve of your actions!

The team needs to apologize to Zambrano and ever other Chicago Cubs fan that has washed this team play like crap this year.

MB21 said:

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Don't mistake a lack of passion with playing poorly. It's like the whole clubhouse chemistry issue. Good teams have good clubhouse chemistry and bad teams don't. Teams that win have passionate ballplayers and teams that don't win have players that don't seem to care. The reality is there is little difference. Keep in mind that Derrek Lee is playing for a contract! He's playing for millions of dollars. I know we don't like to hear it, but going into this season Derrek Lee didn't care how well the Cubs did. He cared how well he did because it's his last pay day. Same with every other player. They all play for themselves and there is nothing wrong with that. It's human nature. The goal is reached if all players play for themselves anyway so playing as a team is each player playing for themselves. Baseball is weird that way. There's little interaction with players on the field. Double plays, caught stealing, some fielding plays. Everything else is an individual effort. Baseball is not a team game like people say it is.

cadarnell said:

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baseball is the best team sport ... that's why this team sucks ... you can't tell me the 84 cubs didn't play as a team ... you're just pretty wrong about much of what you just said.

MB21 said:

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What does the camera focus on? The batter-pitcher confrontation. It's a series of individual match-ups played over 9 innings of baseball. The camera angle alone tells us that baseball is in fact not a team sport. What other sport shows just 2 parts of the field at the same time as it's primary camera angle? None, but baseball can because baseball is about individuals.

cadarnell said:

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I guess you've never been on a bowling league before ... I do understand you point though ... I just think of the word team differently than you I guess ... anyway ... I'm gonna drink this pain from today away ... cheers fellow cubbie fan .. tomorrow's another day ...

MB21 said:

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Fair enough. I tend to look at football as a great example of a team sport. The offensive line is working together to create holes for the running back and/or working together to give the QB some time as well as giving the TE and WR time to get open. There's all kinds of misdirection going on offensively that helps open receivers down the field. The defensive line is working together to close the holes and create penetration to get to the QB. The LB and CB are trying to cover as many of the possible plays that are ultimately nothing more than misdirection plays so that they can isolate a situation which they believe benefits them.

This goes on and on and happens on every single play of the game.

Baseball isn't like that. Very few plays require the assistance of more than one player. Baseball is also very different in that the pitcher is considered part of the defense, but he's actually attacking the hitter's weakness, which is the definition of being on the offensive. As a result, that puts the batter in a defensive position from the start. The fielders are initially on defense, but once the ball is in play they go on the offensive. I think all of that creates the illusion of a team sport, but the game is ultimately about individual confrontations. It starts with the batter-pitcher and then moves to the baserunner/fielder and so on. It's a very unique game and it's what makes it so damn fun to watch and learn about. There's not another sport in the world in like it. Well, cricket of course, but you know what I'm saying.

When baseball first began the pitcher threw underhanded. His intent wasn't to get the batter out, but let the batter make contact so that the fielder could try to get him out. That game would have been impossible to televise. The only reason baseball became as famous in this country as it did is that some began to break the rules and began throwing sidearmed, which eventually led to overhand pitching. And that resulted in the strikeout and the batter-pitch confrontation and the beginning of what could become a very easy sport to televise because only 2 players were of interest in any one scene 99% of the time. Pitcher and batter. Baserunner and fielder.

danieldschell said:

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Haven't read the other responders; sorry if I repeat them.

First, it hasn't been fun to be a Cub fan this spring, and THAT sucks!

I can't disagree with you Julie, but I also can't stand with Carlos. IF, in fact, what he was doing in that dugout WAS calling out his teammates, 1. He went about it the wrong way, and 2. His performance over the last season and a half doesn't qualify him to be the voice of reason. In much the same way I think Dick Cheney should keep his mouth shut, I think Z should have as well.

danieldschell said:

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And Cheney immediately goes into a hospital. Great, now I'm the jerk

JulieDiCaro said:

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no, you're the hero.

Alex Quigley said:

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D-Lee was drawn in playing for a possible bunt from Pierre, and the ball went over the bag. There was no way he gets to that ball if he dives. There was no way any 1B in the league gets it! I was just watching the replay on CSN and TiVo-replayed it four or five times. AND REGARDLESS...you don't freak out when a fielder messes up a play.

Second, I wish Zambrano's fire and passion could've prevented him from grooving a thigh-high fastball down the middle of the plate on an 0-2 count to CQ. Was that Derrek Lee's fault, too? Three quality starts all season long from our supposed #1 pitcher.

And to suggest that other players "don't care" because they don't throw Gatorade coolers and blow up in the dugout...c'mon, you're better than that, Julie.

I have no problems with your criticism of the Cubs' front office, but your defense of Zambrano is flawed. He's a huuuuge part of the reason why the Cubs are 9 games under .500 instead of contending for the division lead.

JulieDiCaro said:

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Oh really? In what way is he a Huuuuuuge part of the reason the Cubs are 9 games under .500? Especially considering he spent a month in the bullpen getting no work whatsoever.

I would love to see your stats on this.

Alex Quigley said:

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He's a huuuuuuuge part because when you pay a guy $17,875,000 for 2010 and make him your Opening Day starter, it means you're counting on him to be your ace. At least 30 starts, 200 IP, a WHIP under 1.3, ERA in the mid-to-low 3's to high 2's.

5.10 ERA (without today's game). 55.2 IP in late June. WHIP of 1.646!!!, and that's without today's game! They put him in the bullpen because he fricking sucked.


He's terrible. Lee and (especially) Ramirez have been terrible at the plate, too, and the whole team has been incredibly bad at hitting with RISP, but it's pretty clear that if Carlos is performing anywhere near the level he was expected and paid for, the Cubs are probably at .500.

JulieDiCaro said:

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that reasoning is so flawed, I don't even know where to start. are you at all figuring derrek lee's .233 average into this scenario? i mean, don't you expect your #3 and #4 hitters who are also making huge sums of money to actually HIT THE BALL ONCE IN A WHILE? how about Ramirez? does he bear any blame? What about Theriot taking one walk in a month and getting caught stealing on the rare occasions he DID get on base?

Z barely got a chance to get settled in before he was shipped to the pen. Then, he got little to no work for a month while he sat out there in the bullpen and rotted. His last two starts were very good--he was just getting back on track. And he pitched well after he gave up the 3-run shot.

Z only pitches once every 4 days. The every day players have had FAR more responsibility for the losing record than he has.

Alex Quigley said:

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Oh, I totally agree (and pretty sure I just wrote it, Julie) that Lee, Ram, and the the everyday players are to blame as well.

But I don't see Ryan Theriot yelling at the entire team and getting into Marlon Byrd's face after Riot got caught stealing for the second time in a game.

Your "point" that he "pitched well after he gave up the 3-run shot" is laughable. Oh, cool, he was able to bring down his ERA for the game from 108.00 to a nice 36.00. He got two outs in a row without giving up a baserunner!

How can you possibly defend Carlos Zambrano's performance this season, especially given the large price tag he carries?

JulieDiCaro said:

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i'm not defending his performance this season, though i do think he should get a break considering that he was sent to the bullpen to rot for a month.

what i am saying is that i don't think what he did merited being taken out of the game, much less suspended. Hell, Randy Wells has been FAR worse than Z this season.

gravedigger said:

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Z is the least of the Cubs problems. He lost his cool in the dugout. Alex and Jim Hendry the other derps need to straighten out their panties and get over it. It wasn't a big deal (in fact, it was nice to see some fire in /someone/).

But people calling for the best pitcher the Cubs have had in a while to be traded because he called out teammates for their poor performance is, well, hurrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Alex Quigley said:

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How did he "call out teammates for their poor performance"? And who said to trade him?

--MGb said:

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I don't know about you folks, but I for one and VERY MUCH looking forward to Chicago now radio later today....

mlkirchw said:

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It's not Z's performance that got him kicked out of the game, its that he's criticizing his teammates. He can't take responsibility for the fact that he gave up an 0-2, 3-run homer so he wants to point the fingers at his teammates for uninspired play. Like somehow if Derek Lee made a miraculous play on the first grounder his gopher ball wouldn't have been hit that hard? He needs to go.

gravedigger said:

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Herp derp.

MB21 said:

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You're kidding me. You're telling me with a straight face that a starting pitcher not 3 months into the season has cost his team 9 games? I could explain why that is absurd, but I realize I would be wasting my time and it's better served discussing something with someone whose intelligent ranks above an insect. Good luck with life.

gravedigger said:

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I would like to add something more to this, but you pretty much covered it.

No, wait, you forgot: hurr, durr, derp.

Concreteman said:

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Why do people bring up a guy's salary as part of the argument? You do not pay him. He is not cutting into your pay. It does not take food from your plate. Why not bring up what the Cubs make annually? The purpose for playing professional sports is to get paid.

MB21 said:

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Agreed. The idea that Zambrano is even a small part of why they are where they are shows a complete lack of understanding of the game of baseball. Unfortunately most fans are that way.

I do agree with that guy about the groundball though. No way was Lee fielding that. Pierre initially thought the ball was foul and didn't even run at first. That's how close the ball was to the line.

gravedigger said:

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Most fans are retarded. That's why I'm following people around the internet today saying "herp derp" and posting pictures of the herp derp dog. That's really all there is left. Reasoned arguments don't work.

Alex Quigley said:

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What is your "reasoned argument" "PLAY WITH PASSION"?

Herp derp, indeed.

gravedigger said:

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Herp

MB21 said:

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Reasoned argument for what? It seems to me that reason and logic has escaped many, if not every single one of your comments.

Look, I understand the simpleton needs a hero and a villain. Baseball is a fantastic game to provide such examples. There's often that one guy fans can point to as the hero (Byrd in that 13-inning game neverminding the great pitching for 13 innings that ACTUALLY won the game) and the villain (any player they don't like who doesn't perform up to their standards). It's why this county has such a love affair with the game. We all like heros and villains.

However, at some point someone has to stop regurgitating what they've been taught to feel and start appreciating the finer aspects of the game. There is no such thing as a hero or a villain in baseball. It's a baseball game. There are 25 players who play a part in winning and losing. You can't sit here and tell me one week that it's about being a part of the team and then go off and say so and so has cost the team 9 wins. Which is it? Is it a team sport as many say or is it not? Make up your mind.

Alex Quigley said:

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If you plug the expected pitching numbers for what Carlos Zambrano should be doing, then the Cubs would have more wins. NOT NINE, but four or five. The fact that you can't grasp that suggests reason and logic have escaped you.

He is a significant part of the reason why the Cubs are failing this year: he, along with a couple key other players, are not performing anywhere near their expected levels.

The meatball bait worked, Julie! FIRE AND PASSION WILL WIN THE WORLD SERIES!!!

MB21 said:

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First of all, 4 or 5 is considerably different than you first said. it's still so completely freaking wrong that I can't wrap my head around it, but it's not as wrong. You do realize we can calculate wins these days, right? Tell me what YOU think Zambrano should be doing so far this season (innings pitched, HR, K, BB, IBB, HBP) and I'll tell you exactly how wrong you are. Deal?

I can get the answer for you within 3 minutes after you give me those numbers. It's that easy to calculate.

Alex Quigley said:

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Again, no, if the Cubs won 4 or 5 of the games played thus far this season, then they'd be at .500. If they had instead won 9 of those games, then they'd be 41-32. This is mindboggling that you don't understand that concept.

And how 'bout Carlos maintained something close to to his 162-game averages, prorated to 73 games played. From baseball-reference:

16 or 17 GS, about 100 IP, 7-4 record, ERA of 3.59, WHIP of 1.308, 88K, 46 BB, 8 HR.

Be sure to calculate the domino effect that results when our #1 starter becomes our #2, #2 becomes #3, #3 becomes #4, #4 becomes #5, and #5 doesn't make any starts at all.

MB21 said:

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The reason I can't wrap my head around this is that Tim Lincecum was worth just over 8 wins all of last season. Greinke was worth just over 9. Zambrano, in his best season was about 5 wins or if you do it as an individual win-loss record to make it easier for you, he was 8 wins and 0 losses in his best season, 2004: http://www.tangotiger.net/wonloss/index5.php?retroid=zambc001

He was worth 5.5 wins in 2004 and 5.0 in 2005: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/z/zambrca01.shtml#pitching_value

You're telling me that a guy whose career best win value was 5.5 wins is worth 4-5 in less than 3 months, a month of which he spent in the bullpen? Are you freaking nuts? Seriously, are you nuts?

This is very simple. Carlos' best season, 2004, he was worth 5.5 wins. So you're telling me that all of a sudden we should expect Zambrano to be worth 8 to 10 wins over the course of 162 games or basically that we should expect him to be better than Greinke was last year? I ask again, are you freaking nuts?

JulieDiCaro said:

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If there's one thing I've learned from hanging around with the likes of Harry Pav, MB21, Berselius et al over the course of the last several years, it's that you can argue your point to death, until one of them whips out the numbers to prove you're wrong. At that point, when cold, hard facts are staring you in the face and disproving everything you said, you'd better man up and admit that you were wrong.

I think it's fair to argue that Z behaved like a child and deserved as suspension--that's a matter of opinion. But to say he's costs this team even 4-5 wins over the course of 2 months, when there are actual numbers to prove otherwise, it's best to just admit you were wrong on that point.

seriously--i admit i'm wrong all the time with them.

Alex Quigley said:

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okay, I gotta go to bed soon.

But let's say Carlos performs at a 4.0 WAR level for the year. Call that 2 wins for this half season.

Then did you factor in the domino effect for the rest of the rotation? Or the significance of Z's bat when it's in the lineup as opposed to a terrible, normal pitcher's bat? Bet those two factors are worth at least 1.0 WAR through 73 games.

And then...HOLY CRAP. YOU GOT ME. I WAS OFF BY ONE GAME.

You must be a blast at parties. I mean, you already lost when you resorted to personal attacks, but seriously...you can't even read. I never said nine games, ever. Julie kinda-sorta did but not even in that same context. I don't even know where you got that number.

Anyway, Jimmy, you could've saved me a lot of trouble by just opening with "he's a Milton Bradley supporter".

JulieDiCaro said:

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for like, the 10th time, could you NOT insult my readers, please? seriously. . . i have a history with this guys. i've known them way longer than i've known you. and they know what they're talking about. you don't have to agree, but you DO have to not be a jerk to them. at least on my blog. you can do what you want on yours.

MB21 said:

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Trust me, Julie, if he wasn't putting me down, I'd feel like I was doing something wrong.

Sorry for coming by tonight. I didn't mean to start all this crap, but that stuff was just utter nonsense and I actually disagree with you about the groundball and suspension. I just thought the HUGE part of the problem thing was ridiculous. This, after a game the Cubs offense scored 0 runs.

JulieDiCaro said:

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I like it when you stop by. I'm glad you did.

millertime said:

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I like it when the posts nest like this and all my words are vertical. Wheeeeeeeeeeeee!

MB21 said:

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This domino effect you speak of actually has a name. It's called chaining. The interesting thing here is that the result of taking chaining into account is that it actually makes Z's underperformance seem like less of an impact because Silva has been so good, Gorzelanny was very good, etc. And no, Zambrano's bat is not 1 WAR over half a season. It's been over 1 WAR in one season. It averages about .7 WAR per season and if you're counting on .7 WAR from a pitcher bat in 80 freaking plate appearance which has a variance in wOBA of about 200 points you're going to be very disappointed.

No, you weren't off by 1. You were off by 3 to 4. Numbers, man.

Milton Bradley supporter or not, the numbers don't lie. If you'd like to dismiss them because of that, so be it, but it makes you ignorant. I made a mistake and was wrong. You can choose to pay attention to what's right or you can ignore it. If you do that, I call you ignorant because you are.

MB21 said:

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The problem is that they're looking at this from a strictly won-loss record standpoint, which of course factors in defense and offense. As we know, if you want to find out what Z is responsible for, you have to include only what he can control and he can't control his offense scoring no runs or his defense making multiple errors per game.

I say things that are wrong all the time. Many of my opinions are wrong. That's life. But the numbers are the numbers. They don't lie and they always beat an opinion because opinions are so flawed. Mine too.

Jimmy Greenfield said:

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You used the numbers to argue that Bradley was an above average player last year and that the Cubs were dumb to trade him.

So which is it? Were you wrong about the numbers last year or do numbers never lie?

Jimmy Greenfield said:

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Wait, pitching doesn't matter that much? Is that what's being suggested here?

MB21 said:

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Nobody is suggesting any such thing. I can't speak for everyone here, but I don't take such a simplistic view of baseball. There are 3 ways to affect run scoring: offense, fielding and pitching. Pitching is about 35% of the game (look it up, it's been proven), fielding is about 15% (look it up, it's been proven), and batting is about 50% (look it up, it's been proven). All 3 of these aspects are responsible for wins and losses. It's why I hate such simplistic statements that say so and so cost the team the game today. I've heard people say that when the final was 13-9 and they'll say the starting pitcher is responsible because he gave up 6 runs in 2 innings before leaving the game. Unfortunately, things are that simple. Each and every player has an impact in each and every game (this what we call win expectancy added).

Zambrano had a terrible game. Nobody would ever deny that. Yes, he is a big reason why they lost today. That is undeniable. An equally big reason why they lost today was because they scored no runs. Did you know that in the history of baseball not one team has won a game while scoring 0 runs or fewer? It's not happened.

Of course pitching matters and any person who has ever watched a game recognizes that. Why ask such a silly question when you already know the answer to it?

Jimmy Greenfield said:

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This is what's silly: "The idea that Zambrano is even a small part of why they are where they are shows a complete lack of understanding of the game of baseball."

Zambrano's failure is a HUGE part of why the Cubs are a disaster. Not only hasn't he produced, but the money they invested in him could have gone to other player and his failure forced them to alter their rotation, screw with the bullpen, basically add more chaos to an already chaotic situation.

If Zambrano was putting up Carlos Silva-type numbers (reasonable expectation, right?) the Cubs would be around .500 and who knows what the domino effect is.

Instead, he's been terrible. This isn't to argue the Cubs were right to suspend him, I agree with Julie on this one. But baseball-wise, he's a disaster.

Alex Quigley said:

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Beardmen know the truth. Domino effect on the rotation and poorly invested money that could've gone to a better pitcher = my next post.

JulieDiCaro said:

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It's A part. . . not a HUGE part. Not nearly as big of a part as the fact that our 3-5 hitters have sucked all season. No one is saying that pitching doesn't affect winning, but a starter doesn't affect a team's record NEARLY as much as the every day players---especialy when the everyday players are giving their pitchers NO run support.

Alex Quigley said:

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If all we're going to do now is argue the definition of "huge", then this is done for now.

Clearly the worst player on the Cubs this year when comparing performance to expected performance is Aramis Ramirez.

But Z's anywhere from #4 to #2.

And bottom line: there's no excuse to act like a bratty child. Seriously, just take his actions alone and examine them. That's not baseball. That's not professional. That's a nutcase. Being a nutcase doesn't help anybody hit doubles, take walks, steal bases, or win games.

MB21 said:

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The money invested in Zambrano is NOT Zambrano's fault. If ChicagoNow offered you a contract for $3 million, are you going to decline it? No. So while in the end that contract may be a reason why ChicagoNow goes bankrupt, you are not a HUGE reason why. You are simply a smart man for taking advantage of a company willing to pay you an obscene amount of money.

As for, "who knows what the domino effect is?" I do. This was an 83-win team entering the season. Aramis Ramirez and Derrek Lee have played very poorly. Randy Wells has not played well. The defense has been atrocious. The bullpen even worse. So if Zambrano was as good as Silva, yes, they'd be better, but they'd still be terrible because they weren't good going into the season!

As for the suspension, you might find it hard to believe, I disagree with Julie. That's mostly because I simply don't care one way or the other. His trade value isn't lessened any more than if Hendry were to stand up today and talk about Zambrano doing humanitarian work in Africa. Teams don't care about that stuff any more than they care about the stuff they saw today. If the player is good enough, they put up with up. Zambrano is no longer good enough so he doesn't get away with it. I'm fine with that. That's how baseball has been and will continue to be (see Sosa, Sammy).

But please don't sit here and tell someone understands the statistics in this game far better than you that he has cost this team X number of games. I can tell you exactly how many games he's cost the team if you'd like. This isn't voodoo. These are very similar numbers to what MLB teams like the Red Sox, A's, Yankees, Twins and Rays use. The Cubs will soon too. All I need is for one of you to tell me what we should have expected out of Zambrano.

I know what we should reasonably have expected from him (3.9 FIP), but I have no idea if you guys expected something in the Mariano Rivera, Tim Lincecum range or if you were expecting more in the realistic range.

Alex Quigley said:

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If I took that $3 million and proceed to let my dog pound on the keyboard and call it a blog posting, then it wouldn't be my fault? GREENFIELD, I GOT AN IDEA!

MB21 said:

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I assume if they paid you $3 million for your current level of work then they would absolutely be expecting the quality of work that a dog could pound out on his keyboard.

gravedigger said:

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I'm so in love with this comment.

JulieDiCaro said:

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and i also take issue with you saying that i'm insinuating that players who don't trash the dugout don't care. i never even hinted at that. but when you see the same players doing the same thing game after game after game and then looking shocked at the response, it's hard to imagine that they care all that much.

Ed Nickow said:

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Tweet of the night?

@44R0NCH4R8 I heard that if Carlos Zambrano destroys a Gatorade cooler, it means at least six more weeks of atrocious baseball. #Cubs #MLB

Alex Quigley said:

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and you still haven't responded to the fact that 1) Lee didn't "ole" at that play, and 2) Z gave up FOUR RUNS in the first inning! The reason for today's "apathetic" Cubs loss: Carlos Zambrano can't pitch for shit!

JulieDiCaro said:

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Derrek Lee is usually rock solid at first, but he barely moved for that ball. Maybe he doesn't field it cleanly, but if he pushes it follow, it's a single rather than a double.

I'm still not convinced that Z said anything to Derrek. I'll stand by what I tweeted: it looked like Z was yelling at no one in particular when DLee turned around and said "shut the fuck up." i'll be interested to hear what happened once someone decides to talk about it.

Jimmy Greenfield said:

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Quigley + Julie + ChicagoNow Radio tomorrow = FCC fine for WGN.

JulieDiCaro said:

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if WGN manages to keep their license at all.

gravedigger said:

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I might actually pause drinking to listen.

Wait, why would I need to do that?

Alex Quigley said:

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You have absolutely no idea what wexactly as screamed by Z during his rant, and neither do I. I agree it was pretty clear Lee told him to "shut the fuck up". So given what you already know about Lee's quiet demeanor over the years...you think Z was saying "Puppies are awesome! Unicorns are the best!"?

And again, he barely had a chance to move because Juan Pierre ripped the shit outta that ball AND Lee was drawn in for the bunt. I mean, c'mon, Julie: Z's pitching made Juan Pierre look like a frozen rope hitter.

mikeproper said:

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Ah "quiet demeanor." How rose-colored your glasses are. Let's not forget Lee is the same guy who clocked Chris Young for NO legitimate reason.

As Harry Pavlidas pointed out on Twitter, it's the same thing when people point out how great of a clubhouse guy Ted Lilly is when he got into a confrontation with his manager more than once in Toronto.

MB21 said:

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We can't expect Alex and Jimmy to be rational. They have an agenda and they consider their opinions to be facts. This way they can ignore anything they don't agree with. Neat little world they live in, isn't it?

JulieDiCaro said:

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okay, well NOW let me say that both Alex and Jimy are good friends of mine and they don't have an agenda. Trust me on that. We all disagree on Z's behavior-that's fair. But let's not resort to chasing waterfalls.

MB21 said:

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Julie, it seems there are certain types of Cubs fans who jump at any and every opportunity to bash Zambrano and explain to all of us how he's not very good and terrible for this team. It's been happening since 2004 when he even had his best season. I think it's very fair to say that Jimmy and Alex both want Zambrano gone and enjoyed this last episode because it further strengthened their argument. If I'm wrong, I apologize, but there has been an agenda against Zambrano (fans and media and probably even the team) for years now. I said going into this season that Zambrano would be the scapegoat and he has been. Even if he was pitching well, he'd still be the scapegoat. I said he'd be traded around the deadline and he will be. This has been in the making for years. It's typical Cubs behavior and Zambrano's actions (and underperformance) have just made their decision to get rid of him much easier.

I'm perfectly fine with that because it's what they should do. Every player 26 or older on this team should be available at the deadline and should be traded if a decent deal comes their way. How it all happens doesn't matter much to me, but the Cubs, the media, and many of the fans are going to celebrate when one of the best pitchers in Cubs history is traded for nothing.

berselius said:

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See also: Sosa, Sammy. Now that the team isn't owned by the Trib I sure hope the franchise retires his number.

gravedigger said:

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Derp.

MB21 said:

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Odd that you fail to mention one other important statistic: 0 runs scored.

Doesn't fit your storyline though, does it? Oh well.

Alex Quigley said:

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No, dude, the team isn't good at all. Are you reading my entire posts? I've said it a few times now. But Z didn't blow up after the game. He blew up after one inning.

And if the Cubs win FOUR or FIVE more games thus far, not NINE, then their 32-41 record transforms to 36-37 or 37-36, or .500-ish. Insect math, right?

MB21 said:

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And if the Cubs win 27 more games they're in first place! I can play this game too. You know what? I just figured out that if no player on the team ever made a player that hurt the Cubs chances to win, they'd be undefeated. That's right. That's all it takes is absolute perfect from every single player on the team. These guys are bums for not being perfect.

I feel like I'm talking to someone in kindergarten. But at the end of the day you're a traditional type person and I'm more of the sabermetrically inclined. Look who's taking over the front offices! It ain't people like you. They're being replaced by smarter people. People who aren't afraid of advanced math.

Alex Quigley said:

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Jesus christ, dude, I go to b-r and fangraphs, too. Crunch those numbers already. You said it would only take 3 minutes.

Jimmy Greenfield said:

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Quigley, you're arguing with a guy who think the Cubs were dumb to trade Milton Bradley.

MB21 said:

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Yeah I was wrong about that. It wasn't the first time I was wrong and it won't be the last. We're arguing math here. Math isn't wrong. Zambrano can't be expected to have his best season in his career in 3 months. That's a fact, but it seems you and your buddy think he should have. At least you guys make the rest of us laugh. We thank you for that.

gravedigger said:

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Quigly, you're talking to a guy who uses twitter terms for non-twitter events.

MB21 said:

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If you go there, you're doing it wrong.

MB21 said:

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I said it would take 3 minutes if you supplied me with the numbers you thought he was capable of. So far all you've done is talk team numbers. I thought we were trying to figure out how much Zambrano has cost this team. In order to do that, we have to take the team out of it. Get it? If we don't take the team out, we're left with the team. Simple to most. Difficult for the idiots that that get upset numbers are taking over the game.

gravedigger said:

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you're wasting your breath. Try a language they understand. Huurrrrrrr durrrrrrr.

derp.

MB21 said:

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Oh I know. It's like Bill James has always said. Don't worry about people like Jimmy and Alex. Keep doing what you're doing and they'll catch up soon enough. There's no reason to sink to their levels, but I have lots of time and that's what I've done.

Zambrano has cost the team just over 1 win and that's if we ignore the fact that the CUBS put him in the bullpen for a month. Under 1 win if we factor that in. Those are the FACTS.

http://www.anothercubsblog.org/index.php/site/comments/stupid-fucking-people/

MB21 said:

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We're on the old site for awhile because we're moving servers and that's been a big headache. So we went retro for the weekend.

JulieDiCaro said:

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it's surprising, i think, to a lot of people how many things in baseball are measurable. and when you don't understand how they are measurable, it's easier just to ignore them.

i also don't understand how a bunch of letters in an equation prove gravity, but i accept it anyway. even though i'm far from a stathead, i try to respect that there are numbers out there that can prove me right or wrong.

MB21 said:

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Exactly, Julie. We need only look at teams like the A's, Twins, Rays, Red Sox, and Yankees and see just how valuable these advanced metrics are. They have some of the most advanced front offices in baseball and it's no surprise they are where they are on an annual basis.

I don't give hitting tips to Aramis Ramirez because I'm not qualified to do it. I can't sit and watch him and with any confidence at all say what he needs to do (I have opinions, but I keep them to myself). However, there are people with very limited knowledge in statistics who have no problem throwing numbers around to support their arguments. We all understand batting average and stats like that, but win values are not simple to understand and it's always bothered me when people throw around "this guy has cost this team this many wins."

gravedigger said:

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If you were a god, and i wasn't an athiest, i'd worship you.

gravedigger said:

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This team is officially Sarah Palin.

cadarnell said:

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she's hot ... this team ...uuuuu ... not so much

gravedigger said:

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Julie, we don't always agree, but on this one I'm with you ten thousand percent.

gravedigger said:

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Hurrrrrr. Durrrrrrr. I'm a Cubs fan.

gravedigger said:

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I'm hoping that, after my performance tonight, Julie suspends me indefinitely.

MillsChC said:

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Comments like these is why this is the bestest site ever.

cadarnell said:

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agreed

gravedigger said:

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me too

oog of ulams said:

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This is all so rich. How many people jump at the chance to be Yellon? Amazing!

JulieDiCaro said:

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um . . . what?

gravedigger said:

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al says "Z must go" and everyones like "herr derp yeah!!!!one"

oog of ulams said:

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Not you, CJ. What Gravedigger said. Herr. And derp.

gravedigger said:

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Exactly. Hurrrrr

MillsChC said:

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So... where's the video of him cursing out camera guys on his way home?

MillsChC said:

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A D'backs pitcher is taking a no-hitter into the 9th.. and a 1-0 lead even though he's allowed at least 8 baserunners.

MillsChC said:

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150 pitch no-hitter.

cadarnell said:

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I really think Z has been a ticking time bomb since they put him in the pen. I think Piniella and Hendry share some blame in what happened today. They knew he was a head case, and they sent him to the pen anyway. I'll betcha they wish they would have just let him stay in the rotation about now..... I really think he would have came out of his slump and won at least 10 games for this team, if they wudda just let him pitch thru his early season problems ... they really Fu**ed this up in a lot of ways.

gravedigger said:

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julie, you might have the smartest group of cubs fans on the internets. Seriously.

Rich Beckman said:

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There is plenty of blame to go around for the crappy season...RAmirez, Lee, Soriano, Fukudome, Theriot, Piniella, and, yes, Cra-Z (to begin with).

Regarding Cra-Z, I have no problem with a player showing some emotion, but I do have a problem with players behaving like a spoiled 12 year old.

cadarnell said:

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I'm sure you've seen spoiled 12 year olds play ... it's actually very entertaining ... this team, this year could use a few more "spoiled 12 year olds" in my opinion ...GO CUBS!!!!!

gravedigger said:

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SERIOUSLY. You're my best friend tonight. I will refrain from hurrrr durrrr derping you

cadarnell said:

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thx. .. I'm drinking to you GD...........

gravedigger said:

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and im drinkin to me

go1demp1go said:

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I'm sorry, but I can't believe it has taken this long for someone on the team to get angry. We saw Silva get a little angry when he played against the White Sox, and frankly I liked it. It is about time the players show some emotion. Maybe Big Z and Silva weren't the right people to show emotion, but I agree with Bob Brenly---the team has been a bunch of Dead@sses. ....


The people that should have been showing emotion (Pinnella, Lee, and others) haven't stepped up to the plate. Pinnella has been Mr. Zen all season. Is that working? No. We need emotion. Pinnella used to have it, but he lost it. Pinnella should be the one yelling, but he's not. I'm glad Z did it. Not the best situation, but if Pinnella can't do it, and the team leaders won't do it. Someone needs to. ....


I am ticked at Pinnella....Taking Z out because he showed some freaken emotion after a bad inning....Even Len and Bob were happy to see some emotion...Calling the team a bunch of emotionless dead@sses for the past 2 months. ....


Then Pinnella takes Z out after 1 inning. Yes he let 4 runs score, but he is coming off his best start of the season, and we all know that Z normally has his worst innings right at the beginning of the game. He should have been left in for the 2nd inning and then if he still struggled have considered taking him out. ...


But he wasn't taken out for the bad 1st inning. He was taken out for showing emotion. True he shouldn't have lost it, but Pinnella should have, and he should have lost it a long time ago. Doesn't anyone remember that in the past when the team wasn't doing so hot, and then Pinnella lost it and bam, the team started to perform again? Now he is mr. cool and the team is just that -cool- They need to be hot. ...


Don't suspend Big Z. Suspend Pinnella. Not just for today, but for all around poor management of his team this season. ...


I wouldn't be surprised if Big Z asks to be traded to a team that can appreciate emotion--I'll renew my MLB subscription and watch their games. I'm sick of watching a team that looses day in and day out and just shrugs their shoulders and are waiting for next year to be better. ....


I'll still be a Cubs fan until the day I die, but I want to see a team that plays with emotion. Win or lose, show some emotion.

cadarnell said:

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word !

gravedigger said:

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im remembering the simpsons where homer says "your mother makes a very LOUD point..." im sure this is a great post but im too drunk to read it

sloan peterson said:

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Just checked in to read all of the comments re Z's suspension.I think the Cubs need to take a deep breath on this-they dumped Barrett for the same thing. This weekend will decide whether management has shut down for the year, or wants to have a respectable season with what's left.Zambrano does not play every day-Lee,Ramirez,Theriot,etc do. Teams have won with 1-0 games before-we know that. We also know that Z gave up a home run. However,one of the few intelligent LA broadcasters noted that sooner or later the Cubs pitchers would wear down due to the lack of run production. Z has worn down obviously-as Cubbiejulie noted he went to the bullpen without complaint. Some media want him gone-that doesn't help.How many games before the all-star break?Maybe sit Z down till after the break-but if the Cubs do that, they better zap Lou with 80,00 volts to wake him up out of his torpur. This could get really ugly unless SOMEONE acts like a grownup...

Reverend H.L. Spork said:

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Let's face it: Lou Piniella is essentially waiting for October, when he can retire. And if Ricketts really wants to clear the stench of a perennially-underachieving team, he'll not only fire Jim Hendry at the end of the season, he'll also hold a fire sale. Sure, Soriano and Co. carry fat contracts, but you know something? Dump the underachievers, eat the contracts, and move on. This team has a huge payroll and a lot of talent: what they don't have is hunger. Zambrano is one of the few players who is, but he has physically and emotionally flamed out with the Cubs. He needs to go, not for the Cubs' benefit, but for his own good.

Maybe I'm naive. I can accept that. But maybe what the Cubs need is not to be a perennial playoff contender in March, but to be a bad team for a couple years, bring up talent from a fairly good farm system, and rebuild. I'd rather have a fun, overachieving team that wins 75 games than an underachieving team with bad attitudes that settles for 85 wins and a three-game playoff exit.

gravedigger said:

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Lets pull a Marlins!

camden said:

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There's a right way and a wrong way to "express emotion" and "communicate" frustration. Zambrano behaved like a spoiled child, his actions detrimental to the team. If you acted that way at your job - regardless of what it was - would you be disciplined (severely?) Of course you would. "Caring" too much is not a justifiable excuse.

And Zambrano is nowhere near playing to what his salary and expectations require. Neither is Ramirez, Lee, Soto, Soriano, etc. etc.

The unfortunate reality is that the Cubs are a monumental joke of a major league baseball team and an embarrassment to Chicago. Zambrano is only one of a myriad of problems. They have an inflated payroll of players well past their prime (if some of them had a prime). Poor business decisions have guaranteed this "team" many successive future seasons of woe.

As a 40 year Cubs fan and Blackhawks season ticket holder, it's absolutely shocking to compare and contrast the hard working, unselfish, dedicated, team-first, down to earth Blackhawk players with the selfish, spoiled, clueless Cubs. The difference in attitude and approach to their respective games is palpable.

The Cubs will not change until fans stop going to games. That's what happened to the Hawks. They figured it out. And they rebuilt, brought in the right people, fostered the right attitude, demanded commitment to that attitude and won a championship.

That's what the Cubs must do and it will be a long, painful process. Let's hope by 2020 this train wreck will have reinvented itself. But until this process runs its course it's futile and a waste of time to think anything but the present day sub-par performance and shenanigans will occur.

berselius said:

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I like pie.

millertime said:

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I like pie too. Let's be friends.

djcel said:

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Big Z has every right to express himself, even "blow-up" on his (lack-luster) team-mates but not in the middle of the game and not in public the way he did. He should also look in the mirror before he is critical of his teammates. Z is 3-5 with a 5.10 ERA. 5.10 is almost a full point above the league average ERA of 4.18.

MB21 said:

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If Zambrano wasn't on this team they'd finish the season 200-(-38). I know this because I said so.

ckfred said:

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Does Zambrano have talent? Yes, but when is he going to start using it to its full potential? Grag Maddux played on some Cub teams that were bad, yet he put up good numbers during his first tour with the Cubs. He even got his first Cy Young Award while pitching for a Cubs team that was pretty mediocre.

Yes, it's nice to have Gold Gloves in the field when pitching, but part of a pitcher's job is to either strike out batters or make them hit easy grounders and fly balls. There have been times that Zambrano couldn't hit the strike zone, unless he threw pitches in the middle of the zone.

I'm tired of Zambrano not living up to his potential and blaming his teammates for his problems on the mound. I want him out of town, even if the Cubs have to include cash considerations to move him.

It's one thing to tell your teammates that they need to hustle in the privacy of the clubhouse. It's another to do it in a profanity-laced tirade in the dugout with the cameras zoomed in.

If an employee of a Fortune 500 company started swearing a blue streak at a fellow employee, within earshot of others, because of mistakes, that employee would probably be fired or suspended without pay. So why is Zambrano being applauded for showing that he's tired of losing and swearing at fellow teammates?

This isn't saying that Hendry and Pinella should keep their jobs. Jim Hendry assembled a pretty good team in '03 that should have gone to the World Series. But it is time for both of them to go.

But they need to take Zambrano with them.

ollie6777 said:

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wow, i had to start an account just to comment despite the spam i know i'm about to receive.

i can't say i've ever seen a championship ball club that made family business public. family business is family business and should be kept inside of the family. championship ballclubs are willing to take a bullet for each other. 2003 was the last time i saw that from the cubs.

zambrano's drama is a cancer and i hope that is the last time i see him in cubby blue.

i would support advertising all over wrigley just to pay zambrano off and ship him out of chicago.

cubbiejulie, we all feel dumber for reading that puff piece and may god have mercy on your soul.

cadarnell said:

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I can't say this for sure because I'm not sure when and where it has had to have happened b4. But there has to be some teams in the history of baseball that won chamopionships even though they had some public arguements. Lou screwed up by not just leaving Z in that game. Let the boys have a little spat in the dugout as long as no punches were thrown. Hell we've all seen Z pitch great after he gets emotional. Lou should have left him in and then this might not have beeen the huge story it is this morning ...Lou screwed up with Z yet again... I have just lost any small amount of hope I had left that Lou still has it ... he should just step down..

sloan peterson said:

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So, why did you go through the "effort" of starting an account, if you feel your opinion will not be appreciated?Aren't there other places for you to comment,or other Cub blogs,? And, if reading lowers your intelligence, then you might want to see a doctor....

MillsChC said:

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Sigh...

I really miss when looking at a 123 comment thread on this site meant that 100 or so of them were gonna be something actually funny to make me chuckle, instead of the back and forth nonsense that is on every other lame Cubs blog.

cadarnell said:

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some of it was hilarious though ... I'm hooked on this page. It's really even better than watching us play this year..haha

gravedigger said:

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You didn't enjoy my drunken hur durrrr derping?

sloan peterson said:

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But all the new commentors have so many ways to say "Z sucks,get rid of him".(not)

Doc said:

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So, hey...um...so who will be the next Cub with a psychological problem that will have a hissy fit and get suspended indefinitely?

I'm hoping it is the self-delusional Ryan Theriot.

sloan peterson said:

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I expect it will be Aramis,I would hope it would be Rothchild,so we could get a pitching coach that would HELP the staff. Maybe we can steal the Diamondback's pitching coach....

jtbwriter said:

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Here in So Cal-I see that life for the followers of that moron from WGN radio is pretty dull-since joining a blog to insult everyone for their opinion of the Cubs and Carlos Z seems to be so important to them! Obviously Z acted stupidly-you don't throw a tantrum to show how much you care about the game or how you think your teammates play. But an indefinite suspension is overkill. With every sad and tragic event that has happened in the last 24 hours, Z's behavior is small potatoes. Sit him down for his next start without pay and have him attend a anger mgmt class, but don't punish the rest of the team and fans. John Wooden once said not to mistake activity with achievement-so don't suspend someone just to look like you are in control!

JulieDiCaro said:

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Sorry guys, i'm already out watching soccer today, so no game thread from me. We can make do wiith this one.

Teebob2000 said:

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I have a better idea. Can't we just delete this thread entirely? This got unnecessarily ugly and personal.

gravedigger said:

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Did you just call me ugly?

Teebob2000 said:

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"Sir, you're drunk."

"Yes, and you, Madam, are ugly. But tomorrow, I shall be sober."

sloan peterson said:

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Well, team USA lost-but sure kept it exciting....

gravedigger said:

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Now they're saying Z will go back to the bullpen after the suspension is over. That will solve everything. Very good idea.

cadarnell said:

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I don't think they should even be saying what their plans are when Z returns ... they just want to kick him when he's down ... cubs front office is no better then Z in that they are making this even more public by even talking about it ... they suck ... they should just shut up and play with 24 like hendry said he would rather do .... the uniforms are all I'm cheering for right now. (and maybe starlin)

Fred Balbo said:

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I've said all along the Carlos was one of the most over rated pitchers in baseball. Even his no hitter was pitched against a team that was tried and had their minds on friends and family back in Houston cleaning up after a hurricain. My hope is that the new owners clean house of all the prima donnas and a coaching staff that has their colective heads up their butts. The one thing that sticks out is the last group of owners refusal to fire Larry Rothchild. I have beleived for a long time that he was the cause of both Kerry Wood's and Pryors's pitching wows. How can Mark Pryor go from being the next Kofax to never playing ball again? When he came out of collage they made a film of his pitching motion, arm position and release point. Someone messed with someting and effectively ended his career.My hope is that the Ricketts will fire Lou, Larry and a few others and put Bob Brenly in the managers position. While they're at it Send Lee and Ramiraz packing. Theriot has got to stop swinging at the 1st pitch he see's with runners on base and 1 out. How many times will he hit into a double play before he thinks before he swings. Please Ricketts. We know your Cub fans, give us all what we deserve. The Cubs in the World Championship so all those fair weather Sox fans will shutup.Fredbigcubfan

gravedigger said:

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Instead of putting thought into a response about why this is such a shitty idea, I'm going to assume this was actually a cleverly disguised attempt at humor.

Teebob2000 said:

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Where's MB21 when you REALLY need him?

MillsChC said:

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There's a BP cup winner now.

MillsChC said:

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Oh just what would the average MLB on Fox fan do without Tim McCarver in the booth?...

Tim wants to be sure to let everyone know that Manny Ramirez used to play for the Red Sox, including even the year that they won the World Series for the first time.

Oh yeah, and he also wants you to know that the Red Sox got into that World Series by coming back and beating the Yankees after being down 3 games to none.... which had never ever, ever been done before.

Thanks Tim for letting us know those obscure facts... this is just a small fraction of why MLB on Fox is the most interesting baseball broadcast going today.

sloan peterson said:

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The best part of theNY/LA broadcast was Lasorda vs Reggie Jackson. The lowlight was the famous manager McCarver stating that no team would ever fight during a game-I seem to remember that the St. Louis Cardinals,NY Yankees,NY Giants, among other teams have had fights during games. They did not even attempt to go into what has happened to the Cubs to state why it happened. I would have even rather watched the Cubs- I would have muted it if the Sox were announcers.

Flubber said:

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Aren't the Cubs playing like they have already been suspended?

gravedigger said:

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Ha! The Cubs lost again today. PLEASE lets start the fire sale.

Chinch Bugs said:

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Fine Carlos - go ahead and yell. But the bottom line is, he was throwing 85 MPH belt high cheese to major league hitters. That why he gave up a 4 spot in the first inning.

He arm is dead. He isn't even a AAA pitcher at this point. Forget the meltdown - he simply doesn't have the stuff to pitch in the majors right now.

Maybe he just wants Lou to put him at first base. He probably has a better chance of getting a clutch hit than DLee does....

cadarnell said:

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he pitched well the game b4 ... I don't think he's done ... he was having a rough start and felt like his team wasn't helping him out ... he's still a MLB quality starter ...

berselius said:

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Julie, you need to change the marquee in the banner to either "We suck" or "Fire Sale!!"

millertime said:

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Oh my God we're having a Fire...Sale! Oh the burning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!


And scene.

sloan peterson said:

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I'm watching the lead-off man show- is Paul Sullivan that short? Dan Roan seems to feel that Sullivan knows everything-kind of like the Shadow....

BearNDesert said:

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I have no trouble with a player showing emotion--In fact, I quite enjoyed D-Lee telling that overweight, overrated baby to "shut the 'F' up." That was great.

The problem with Zambrano doing it is that he does it ALL THE DAMN TIME. Even at that, I'd be willing to forgive him if I felt his tantrums were designed to do anything other than to divert attention from his own poor performance. If a fielder makes an error behind him, Zambrano thinks he has the right to throw meatballs down the heart of the plate, or miss the catcher by a mile on a pitchout, or fail to cover 2nd base, etc., etc.

I'm sick of it, and any remotely sane Cubs' fan should be too.

B-N-D

DustyBaylor said:

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If Zambrano pitched like even a $8 million a year pitcher..outbursts like this are tolerated. He has not pitched well since 2008. 9-7 with a 3.77 ERA? For $18 million? That stinks. You do not..EVER show up your teammates like Zambrano did...like he has done in the past. You get through it...and do notthrow a meatball that gets tattoed for a 3-run homer. Enthusiasm? Passion? That's great. You never, ever, ever, ever show up your teammates. EVER. Zambrano acts like a child. He should be treated like one. He pitched a good start against the ANgels. Yep he did...4 of 9 quality starts this season..for almost $19 million this year. Great.... Pure Effing Cubbery.

DustyBaylor said:

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If Zambrano pitched like even a $8 million a year pitcher..outbursts like this are tolerated. He has not pitched well since 2008. 9-7 with a 3.77 ERA? For $18 million? That stinks. You do not..EVER show up your teammates like Zambrano did...like he has done in the past. You get through it...and do notthrow a meatball that gets tattoed for a 3-run homer. Enthusiasm? Passion? That's great. You never, ever, ever, ever show up your teammates. EVER. Zambrano acts like a child. He should be treated like one. He pitched a good start against the ANgels. Yep he did...4 of 9 quality starts this season..for almost $19 million this year. Great.... Pure Effing Cubbery.

DustyBaylor said:

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Yeah...I'm not going to blow up at anyone about my double post..lol..

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