Mark Buehrle's incredible perfect game on Thursday will surely go down as one of the greatest pitching performances in Chicago baseball history. But was it the greatest?
The only other game that compares is Kerry Wood's 20-strikeout one-hitter against Houston in 1998. The only two baserunners Wood allowed came on an infield single and a hit batsman.
So without making a case for either one, I'll let you decide.
Have fun voting, and debating!
43 Comments
Doc said:
I'm going to have to go with Wood on that...
I don't recall (it's been a while) anyone hitting a ball off of Wood as hard as Gabe Kapler hit that ball in the top of the ninth yesterday.
The perfect game yesterday was a bit more of a team effort than that game in 1998. Wood pretty much did it all himself on the cold day in May.
gravedigger said:
Agree with Doc. The Astros didn't even get the ball out of the infield. The hit should have been an error.
Moreover, Buehrle's game score was a very impressive 93. However, Wood's was a best-in-MLB-history best of 105.
Not only was Wood's game more impressive than Buehrle's, it is possibly the most impressive start in MLB history.
ChicagoMyHome.com said:
Human emotion currently high, and memory crystal clear from Buehrle's perfect game, but for those that vividly remember Wood's game, DOMINANT is the term that best describes it.
South_Side_Bryan said:
It's this city's undying love for the Chicago Cubs that will keep the score skewed in Wood's favor. Which is unfortunate.
Who is up for clarifying - as if ESPN didn't do so enough last night - whether the game Wood pitched in '98 wound up being a perfect game? Twenty-seven up, 27 down... no?
No.
If you do a little research, there have been a number of "near-perfect games" pitched by mound-takers for the North Side ball club. Wonder if Cub fans will blame it on a goat, or maybe a fan's interference.
I don't hate the Cubs. But as long as the White Sox are around, I don't have room to even *like* the North Side.
gravedigger said:
I disagree. While I am a Cubs fan, I'm looking at this objectively.
I watched Buehrle's game, thought it was amazing, and was seriously pulling for him to get it. I'm not biased here.
Wood's game was more impressive in the sheer dominance -- the players couldn't even make contact with him, and on the rare ocassion (8 times) that they did, they couldn't get the ball out of the infield. Nobody made particularly good contact against Buehrle either (except for the ball that Wise caught which should have ended the perfect game), but they did make contact. I think that's a fairly significant difference indicating that Wood's performance was more dominating.
Of course, the whole argument is kind of dumb, like asking if you'd rather have 100 million dollars or 101 million dollars. Both look pretty effing good to me, and the difference is hardly worth arguing over.
tom said:
Talk about excuses.Hawk Harrelson constantly whines about the weather being against the Sox and if an umpire makes a call that he thinks is bad he talks about it for at least 3 or 4 innings letting everyone know why the opposing team is winning.They are never winning because they are playing better than the Sox It is always because of a gift from a bad call.He forgets about how all the calls in the 2005 playoffs went the Sox way
Nobody said:
"Impressive" is such a vague term. If I knew nothing about either pitcher, I'd say Woods in a heartbeat. A perfect game as occurred 18 times. 20 strikeouts in one game - only 4 (and only three pitchers).
But when you look at the type of pitchers they are, I'd have to give the nod to Buehrle. Woods was an elite strikeout pitcher in his prime so it wouldn't be completely surprising to see him perform that well. Not to belittle his accomplishment or skill, but getting 15+ strikeouts a game once in a while was almost expected of him. Buehrle on the other hand is a ground ball pitcher which means he is EXPECTED to give up hits here and there then force double plays. Even after his first no-no few people seriously expected him to have another (let alone a perfect game) due to his style of pitching.
To sum up,
Without knowing the pitchers: Woods
Knowing the pitchers: Buehrle
gravedigger said:
But Wood was also wild, and a fly ball pitcher. So sure, he was expected to get a lot of K's, but also to allow a lot of walks and homers. Yet, he didn't even let them make contact.
It should also be pointed out that it was Wood's 5th start. Some might say that gives him an advantage, but that early in his career (and given that he did not spend much time at AA), I don't think one can really argue that he was "expected" to pitch dominating games at that point in his career.
Nobody said:
True, Woods wasn't "expected" to dominate that early in his career but everyone knew he had the stuff necessary to do so eventually.
Think about it this way. Which is more unlikely to you:
1. 4th overall draft pick tying the record for most strikeouts
2. 38th round draft pick pitching a perfect game
Things like that makes Buehrle's performance more "impressive" to me - it was just so damn unlikely.
But I'll never try arguing who's performance was more "dominating" - that clearly goes to Woods.
gravedigger said:
Ah -- what you're really saying, and I certainly agree, is that determining which is more "impressive" is subjective, whereas "dominating" can be measured objectively. I agree with that. In that case, it makes sense that people disagree because different people find different things impressive.
thread over :)
SpawnOfDitka said:
Hey dude, its WOOD, not WOODS. And, it doesn't get any better (or "more perfect") than a Perfect Game.
Nobody said:
Yeah, yeah... Wood... Woods... I tend to forget his name because I'm not really a fan of the guy. I rarely misspell Buehrle though. hehe
chisoxmike said:
Well, this is just going to turn into Cubs fans voting against Sox fans, but come on...
Are all you people trying to compare it (talking about how hard balls were hit lol) forgetting the fact that Buehrle did not face a pitcher?
The fact that a guy who is not overpowering and isn't going to blow it by anyone makes it even more impressive. Strikeouts can be overrated in many ways anyways, there have been many great pitchers who don't rely on strikeouts (BTW, Houston was in the top 4 in the NL in terms of strikeouts that year. TB is top 4 in the AL in both AVG and OBP)
Please stop the jealousy
Jimmy Greenfield said:
That's a good point about getting to face a pitcher three times, have to factor that in. But it wasn't like the non-pitchers fared any better. He struck out the heart of the order three times each.
gravedigger said:
Those are good points, to be sure. But how hard balls are hit is important to this not-important discussion, because it is a measure of dominance. Wood stayed around the plate all day and the Astros couldn't even make contact. Yes, the As were some serious hackers, but they also had a really, really good offense. So, it isn't like they were a .220 hitting team that struck out 10 times every game.
It seems like some people think those view Wood's game as more impressive are blowing off Buehrle's game as unimpressive. Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, it was the second most impressively pitched game I've ever seen -- and in reality, it is really, really, really close between the two.
RealityBytes said:
A perfect game is a great feat, but on a similar level to a hole-in-one in golf. Some hole-in-ones are great shots, but not as good as some shots that don't go in the hole. Some shots drop in the hole because they clank against the flag instead of rolling 20 feet past. Other shots are a half inch to the left or right and roll a few inches past like a well-paced putt.
Similarly, MANY no-hitters and Perfect Games occur because 27 hitters didn't "hit them where they ain't". There were several balls hit much much harder off Buehrle than were hit off Wood. Buehrle is an excellent pitcher and has stayed healthy, Kerry Wood's only weakness. Wood was absolutely untouchable that day. Buehle pitched a great game but benefitted from his defense and the rare good fortune of having some well-struck balls hit right at someone. The final out of the Buehrle game (routine grounder to short) was hit much harder than the only hit off Wood. Incidentally, to those who comment that Wood got to face the pitcher and that it contributed to his 20 K's, he only struck out the pitcher one time. As a batter, Wood made the 3rd out twice and had to immediately go back out and pitch.
WhiteSox fans have a chip on their shoulder because it bothers you that the Sox remain SECOND FIDDLE even after 1 successful season (which doesn't offset 1919 by the way). The Cubs are much more popular and play in a place where only fools would not have a fun time WHETHER THE CUBS WIN OR NOT! That is one of the things that make Sox fans far more anti-Cubs than Cubs fans are anti-Sox.
Again, Buehrle pitched a fabulous game, but was not nearly as dominant as Wood was in his game. I will state further that several non-descript pitchers have thrown no-hitters and even Perfectos, but only very overpowering pitchers have come close to doing what Wood did.
Wood struck out 14 more batters than Buehrle did and only threw 6 more pitches! There were several balls hit hard enough to be hits against Mark, but he had the good fortune to have them hit at someone (Wise's catch was as impressive as the perfecto itself). There was not a loud foul off Wood.
Admit it, Sox fans. Wood was the more impressive pitcher in the 2 games being compared. Mark Buehrle has had a better career because he is a very good(not great)pitcher but mostly because Wood has delighted WhiteSox fans many times with stints on the DL.
Ed Nickow said:
More impressive? Wood.
More exciting? Buehrle's game
Tension in the ninth
Now that I've got my haiku out of the way ... The question is IMPRESSIVE not EXCITING. Wood's performance was more impressive. I saw the Wood game in person but just listened to the ninth inning yesterday on the radio. Yesterday's game was more exciting - even for just half an inning.
But - Buerhle should continue to be an All-Star, which is less likely for Wood.
And - after hearing some of Buerhle's stats - this is the third time he's faced the minimum (with 1 other game in which he faced 28)- I think the odds are also better than Buerhle may be a Hall of Famer.
That's one Cubs fan's opinion.
gravedigger said:
Yeah, as a Cubs fan I'll also acknowledge that -- Buehrle's career is certainly far more impressive.
voodoochile said:
Wood faced 4 starters that day with batting averages .211 or lower including 3 who were well under .200. Those 4 all had OPS well under .600 including 2 in the .300's.
Also, the point about him not walking anyone is mitigated by the fact he hit Biggio with a pitch.
20 strikeouts is an amazing accomplishment, nothing to be diminished, but lots of guys have faced 29 batters in the majors and struck out a bunch in the process.
Perfect games are the penultimate pitching achievement.
oog of ulams said:
What's the "ultimate" achievement, then?
Mike D. said:
A perfect game requires a lot of help--particularly in Buehrle's case when he had only had 6 strikeouts and that catch by Wise, without which Buehrle's not even throwing a shutout.
The person who pointed out that many of the batting averages of Houston that day were sub-.200 should be reminded that the first week in May is only counting roughly one month of baseball--a rather small sample size. Fact is, Houston had a handful of good hitters in that lineup in Biggio, Bagwell, Moises Alou and Derek Bell and they would go on finish second in the National League in hitting in 1998 while winning 102 games.
And "South Side Bryan" and others of his ilk who are crying that this is a Cubs bias only reinforces the stereotype of Sox fans being riddled with an inferiority complex and obsessed with all things Cub. It's a a fair question--get over yourself--and it's perfectly reasonable to make an objective argument for Wood--who did something that has still never been done in his league before or since.
BS37 said:
Great game by Buehrle. Great game by his defense. But Kerry Wood's performance was more impressive to me as an individual achievement. I liken this to last year's Home Run Derby. I think Josh Hamilton inarguably had the more impressive performance, but he can't lay claim to the title in the same way that Woody can't carry the 'no hit' or 'Perfect game' label. Beuhrle, like Morneau in the derby, quietly got the job done and gets to carry the title b/c enough pieces fell into place that it resulted in the PG. But like Hamilton, Wood's outing is the more impressive individual outing in my book. I think one (controversial) hit doesn't outweigh that he had 14 more K's than Mark and only needed to have a defense behind him on 8 plays. Woody was dominant and efficient.
Downers Grove Bob said:
Most fans would rather see Kerry Wood's performance. It was SO overpowering! A perfect game is fantastic but you also have to have a certain amount of luck. A roller down the baseline could easily ruin it. There have been something like 35 perfect games in MLB history. How many 20 strikeout games have there been?
toe_knee said:
Woody's game was more impressive to me because HE got 20 Astros to strikout. Buehrle had only SIX strikeouts and the rest was left to his defense (hello, DeWayne Wise!). Without Wise making that amazing catch, we're talking about just a "nice" 5-1 game that Mark pitched.
LaddieRenfroe said:
I was wrong. Having now done some background research, I see that any number of folks have tried to compare Wood's 20 K game to Buerhle's perfecto. I reacted immediately, and wrongly, because I had seen the question, worded almost exactly the same, posed on a Cub site last night. Using the term "plagiarism" was harsh and almost comically over the top on my part but...
Still, I think it's a silly question. Comparing Wood and Buerhle's performances, generally, is ridiculous. The two differ in any number of ways, from physical stature, to velocity, to the way that they try to get hitters out, not to mention the fact that they use different hands to throw the ball towards the plate. It's a bit like asking whether Harmon Killebrew or Rod Carew was a better player...they were both terrific but choosing between the two becomes an infinitely regressive exercise.
cubfan2323 said:
This argument is so stupid and extremely easy to solve thanks to all you moron Sox fans. Buehrle would not have pitched either no-hitter without 2 people robbing homeruns. He relied on his defense to help him while Wood singlehandedly dominated a team by himself.
Plus look at the elite company Wood is in, only 2 other pitchers EVER struck out 20, while average pitchers such as David Wells have accomplished the same feat as Buehrle. This is a no-brainer. Stop making us Cubs fans look even smarter.
LaddieRenfroe said:
Wow, blatant plagiarism.
This question, with the wording nearly unchanged, was posted on the Cubs blog BleedCubbieBlue.com last night. Kaplan neither cites a link nor references the person that originally asked the question.
The near verbatim wording of the post titles (i.e. the question itself) leaves no doubt in my mind that Kaplan is simply stealing someone else's idea, then using his platform as WGN's postgame host to hype the idea. Couldn't you have at least used a different word to describe the two performances, instead of "impressive"? Lazy.
Great work, Dave...
The original post HERE ... http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/2009/7/23/960620/which-do-you-think-was-more
toe_knee said:
Wow, LaddieRenfroe. You're joking. Right? Accusing Kap of plagiarism for a 12 word question that I have heard at least 5 others ask since the game?!! You must work for FOX, huh?
Chicago Expatriate said:
The arrogance and condescension of the local media never ceases to amaze me. It has to be all things Cub, all the time. Was there a poll after Wood struck out 20 Astros, comparing his achievement to the no hitter thrown by White Sox pitcher Wilson Alvarez seven years earlier? I have no proof but I highly doubt it. Wood deserved his day in the sun for his tremendously pitched game, and he got it. Voodoochile is right, a perfect game is the penultimate achievement for a pitcher, but no in our Cubsessed local media one of their shills has to chime in with this stupid poll. It's one more small reason why the Cubs and their fans are held in such low regard by so many serious baseball fans all across the nation.
macirish said:
Kap,
I don't want to sound like a fair weather person, but both are equally impressive to me...
Kerry Wood's performance was the more impressive individual event.
Buehrle's perfect game was the more impressive team effort.
Kerry may have had help from his catcher, but it took an entire team to make some great plays behind Buerhle to get the perfect game. An acheivement that the entire White Sox club should have bestowed on them.. not just Buerhle.
Go Cubs!! - Mac
Maim said:
I voted for Buehrle's perfect game, but if we're splitting hairs about facing pitchers, etc, I'll play devil's advocate and point out that Wood also had to go out on the field and swing a bat every now and again during the course of the game.
No lollies and pedicures in the dugout every half inning for Wood. Nope. (That IS what AL pitchers do in the dugout while the rest of their team bats, right?)
Tee hee.
xoxo
Mike D. said:
Chicago Expatriate wrote at July 24, 2009 6:27 PM:
Voodoochile is right, a perfect game is the penultimate achievement for a pitcher"
Can someone get these Sox fans a freaking dictionary? Since you failed to notice the mocking of oog of ulams after Voodoochile's rant, allow me to repeat the question:
If a perfect game is the "penultimate" acheivement, then what's the ultimate?
How about striking out 20 batters while giving up one scratch infield hit?
Trying to sound smart during the course of your ad hominem attacks on fans that your dangerous minds automatically assume are Cub fans is enetertaining, but it makes my brain hurt at the same time.
voodoochile said:
No, I used the term correctly. I assume Mark considers his WS win and even WS Save bigger achievements than his perfect game. I assume Wood would love to trade his 20K performance for that opportunity too, but he obviously didn't get the chance. Not surprised you got it wrong too, Mike. Cubs fans have never valued winning over flash.
IrishYeti said:
Voodoochile,
I like your idiotic stereotype "Cubs fans have never valued winning over flash." Yes, Cub fans don't care about the WS, because that's what you're implying. As far as the "penultimate" achievement. Your post said "penultimate achievement for a pitcher". That refers to a single pitching achievement. And if the perfect game is the penultimate achievement, I would have to assume 20 K's is the ultimate achievement. WS wins would be a team accomplishment, as I would think a smart fan like yourself knows that the Wins stat is kind of a crappy stat to really judge someone off of.
LaddieRenfroe,
Please don't cite BCB. That place is the internet's biggest collection of Tards that man has known.
Chicago Expatriate,
You know that 11 years ago the Internet was different, right? I mean there wasn't 50,000 Chicago sports blogs to scrutinize everything. While you are probably right about there not being a poll, you are showing your Cub jealousy (Which I have never understood). The reason Kaplan asked the question is for a couple reasons... 1. To create dialogue, like what's going on here. I think this thread is up to 30 or so comments. That has to be a record for his blog. 2. There were a couple people posing the question on if it was the best game ever pitched. Well, the game that Wood pitched is a good comparison because while he didn't have a perfect game, he had a ridiculous amount of strikeouts. It's basically a game of "Which great achievement is better: Perfect game of 6 K's (and a shutout that was saved by a great catch) or a questionable 1-hitter with 20 K's?"
I'll take the 20 K's. That game was all Wood.
Ed Nickow said:
I previously mentioned, in suggesting that Buehrle is more likely to be a Hall of Famer, that the Sox hurler has faced the minimum 27 batters in 3 games - and 28 batter in another. Quite an impressive statistic. I should give credit to @adambuckled for documenting that fact on his blog (http://andcounting.adamkellogg.com/) and for reporting the following:
Number of perfect games - 18
Number of 20-strikeout games - 4
(Note: This is for 9 innings. One pitcher had 21 K's in a 16 inning game in 1962, but only had 13 in the first 9 innings. That case is more impressive for the number of innings pitched, IMO)
If rare=impressive, then this debate is over.
toe_knee said:
I think Mr. Nickow just ended this debate. Well put sir.
And thank you Laddie for your last post, that showed a lot of class on your part.
Have a nice weekend everyone.
By the way, who has the "best looking" team? I pick the Cubbies. Those guys sure are handsome! :-P
Suburban Kid said:
Still no one has cracked open a dictionary?
To the several folks who seem to think so: penultimate does not mean second best, or almost best, or second most impressive.
Ed Nickow said:
Sox fans had better hope that the perfect game was not Buerhle's "penultimate pitching achievement."
If it was, then he has exactly one game left in his career. Or, possibly, just one more game left as a member of the White Sox.
Unless he becomes a position player or DH.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/penultimate
JermaineDye05 said:
Before I post anything, I want to note that I'm biased because I'm a Sox fan and never witnessed the Wood 20 K game so I can't really compare the two.
My initial response to this is that Buehrle's was better. People keep saying he had help from his defense. I'll say okay, but on 1 play.
Look at the offense that Buehrle was facing, the Rays had a .350 team OBP (I believe that's 2nd or 3rd in the AL). Look at the defense that Buehrle had behind him: A rookie SS that is playing 3B with 9 errors already, a SS that is prone to daydreaming in the field and throwing balls away, a rookie 2B who's been playing all over the field this year, a bad 3rd baseman playing 1st base, a catcher who is catching Buehrle for the first time, a Left fielder who is still recovering from an injury, a bad Left fielder playing Center (He allowed an inside the park HR just a couple games ago!), a Right fielder with almost no range. The team is 2nd to last in the AL in fielding percentage.
Now watch the game out by out. With exception to 1 play, every play was a routine grounder or a pop up. The Rays couldn't square Buehrle up at all, and when they did it was just foul. They were playing right into Buehrle's game, make contact and make an out. Wise was the only player that had to go all out for a play. Every other out was either right at a player or just a couple steps to their left or right.
Buehrle is a contact pitcher, not a strike out pitcher. The most strikeouts Buehrle has ever had in a game is 9 (I believe). Wood was a strikeout pitcher, so striking guys out is expected of him (maybe not 20 a game but still he was expected to be blowing people away). Look at Buehrle's strike zone, he wasn't getting any ridiculous calls. Eric Cooper was very consistent with his tight strike zone. When Buehrle fell behind he came right back at them and got them out on his changeup which could not be laid off of. Buehrle's control was pinpoint. So was Wood's but not quite as good as Buehrle's considering he gave up a hit and he walked a guy.
So looking at all the variables from Buehrle's game, I have to give it to him. Like I said, I never saw the Wood game so I'm biased here. However look at those factors and tell me that Buehrle's game was not the superior one.
demonopie said:
Fifth Major league start.
One extremely cheap hit.
Only accomplished by two other pitchers.
Kerry Wood's game was the more impressive feat.
cannbase said:
Wood's 20 strikeout game is an INDIVIDUAL accomplishment. Also, Woody was very immature when he accomplished his feat.
Taking NOTHING away from Buehrle, his "perfect game" is a team accomplishment, especially since he is a "contact/not strikeout" pitcher.
Max Power said:
If it wans't for the incompetent Bob Rosenberg, the official scorer that day, Wood's 20 K game would have been a no-hitter, as well.
gosoxgo said:
Last time i checked there is a section in the hall of fame remembering all the perfect games and no-hitters thrown in MLB history. I don't recall there being a section for 1 hitters, regardless of how many k's there were. Buerhle wins.
Leave a Comment?
What your comment will look like:
said: