Rose didn't take the last shot. So what?
So this morning, I'm going over some of the post game commentary across Bulls messageboards (hi realgm), and all the talk seems to be that Rose didn't take the last shot.
So what?
Rose opted to give Brad Miller a wide open 18 footer rather than taking on four separate Bucks players closing in on him on the play. It's not like Derrick Rose has been lights out
in this situation either. He's 0-fer right now as far as I can
remember.
I guess the criticism stems from the fact that he's not
aggressive enough. I agree. He's not. However, he was ultra
aggressive in the second half, and in this case, he made the right
basketball play by generating a wide open jumper for a guy who probably
hits that shot 70% of the time.
I get the fact that people aggravated at the miss, and that complaints are going to go wild after any loss, but seriously, if Miller nails the shot who isn't saying that it was a great basketball play? It's a matter of percentages, and you take the highest percentage chance. It doesn't always pay off, but you don't rip on the high percentage play when it fails.
-- update --
Found this photo on realgm of Rose making the final pass, it shows exactly the spacing and decision Rose had to make. Interestingly, there's still an argument going on over what the photo shows.
To me, it looks like Rose is basically quadruple teamed here. He's got a defender on his hip, Bogut in front of him, another guy coming in from the top, and someone underneath past Bogut at the hoop.
On the other hand, he's beat the defender on his hip, may be able to split the defenders closest to his level and then beat the man ready to help at the hoop. A video would be more useful, because you'd get a better feel for how fast everyone was moving into position at the time.
--- update 2 ----
Changed some of the initial text to better represent fact. Also, a video of the play an be find here (thanks to Airp on realgm for posting the link).
http://www.nba.com/video/games/bucks/2009/11/30/0020900249_chi_mil_recap.nba/index.html
It doesn't show the full break, but a little over 2 minutes in you see the final play. Miller really sets a terrible pick there, and Rose probably could have cut through the defense if he didn't hesitate and move hard. He had 3 guys there, but they were all fairly flat footed.
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45 Comments
DVS Jackson said:
Am I the only poor sap who just can't bear to watch Bulls games during the Circus Trip.
I mean...look at the facts...
We invariably have a losing record...
We always see how much of a difference it is when you play teams w/o having a STAR caliber player...
We always have more questions at the beginning than the end...
We always seem to pull it together as a unit afterwards.
Kirk is hurt...
Tyrus is down and sometimey as he's been...we really need him....
Wake me when we're back at the United Center aka The Bulls UNOFFICIAL start to the season.
Dan Frystak said:
I was glad to see Rose be so aggressive in the second half. I was particularly happy to see him finding the rim when hitting the hole. Previously he had been able to penetrate but was not finishing regularly. He outplayed Jennings last night and was the main reason they were in that game. And I have no issue with him passing to Miller for the final shot last night...Bogut had dropped into the lane right in front of Rose and Jennings was still close by too. I'd rather have an open shot than a tough, double-teamed 8-footer.
My issue with last night, as per usual, lies with that short-sighted fool Vinnie Del Negro. He needs to come forward and directly address why James Johnson did not play last night, as well as most other nights. When their bench consists of 3 guys (shooting a combined 4-15), and you have 3 starters going over 43 minutes, somebody needs to tell the fans why.
And the fact that Stacey King and Neil Funk don't address it reeks of corporate, stay-in-line, protect-your-job BS that is simply infuriating. I expect it from Neil, as he can barely see the court anymore, let alone who is playing. But Stacey can and should address it on air. "KYP" and "If your afraid, go buy a dog" is cute, but actual in-depth analysis and providing a better understanding to the fan would be better.
I mean, really? Your telling me the best decision, long-term, is to sit your first-round pick for the entire game. And play Lindsay Hunter 22 minutes? Really?
PJ Brown said:
Miller is money from that range. It's like saying you shouldn't pass to Steve Kerr or John Paxson wide-open behind the arc with the game on the line because Jordan should've shot it himself, regardless of the defense.
I get that people are worried, frustrated and even cracking because of the painful losing streak, but I don't see this as a genuine controversy.
AirP said:
Miller isn't money from that range anymore, he's solid from that range. Steve Kerr and John Paxson were TOP outside shooters in the NBA when Jordan them on the team.
It's not about the losing streak, it's about development of players and we want Rose to develop into a franchise player yet we don't give him franchise player's responsibilities. Put the weight of the franchise on Rose and he'll buckle a little bit, but he will learn what it takes to be successful. The sooner the better.
Doug Thonus said:
I would bet that Miller's percentage from the free throw line is higher than Kerr/Paxson from the 3 point line.
Second, Rose did put the game on his shoulders, and he delivered at the end leading the Bulls back. On the final play, he generated a double team and hit a capable jump shooter for a wide open shot at the free throw line.
That's the kind of play you want him to make at the end of the game.
AirP said:
MILLER HAD JUST COME OFF THE BENCH... I just watched the play a few times... ROSE WAITED FOR MILLER TO GET DOWN TO RUN THE PICK AND ROLL then got the pick and looked for Miller the whole time.
Watch the play... Rose could have gotten past his man going down the court NO PROBLEM then it would have been Rose vs Bogut one on one. But he WAITED for Miller to RUN to his spot to get the pick and pass it back.
I have a HUGE problem with this play. Had Miller been in the game and not been cold that would have been a little different, but watch the play again, Rose could have had a one on one situation with their center far enough away from the basket.
I'd rather see Rose pull up to take a jumper before giving Miller a jumper. Rose is a better midrange shooter then Miller, even last year he was. Toss in the fact that Miller had just come off the bench just adds to Rose being the better midrange option.
Doug Thonus said:
Is the play up on youtube? I couldn't immediately find it. I only watched it live, so I could have my memory distorted.
I still don't have a problem with Rose passing off to a wide open capable shooter well within his range though, and I doubt I ever would.
Greg said:
Actually having watched the game it wasn't a free throw, it was an open 18 footer from the right elbow. A quick check on NBA.com would show that Miller is 2 for 11 on the season shooting from that zone. Hardly 70%.
I don't think it was a horrible play on Rose's part. I just think it highlights VDN's deficiencies as a coach that we'd run a final play where a 18% shot is even an option. Why in spite of all evidence to the contrary do we still cling to the belief that Brad Miller is our best floor option down the stretch in games?
Doug Thonus said:
You're right, at least as long as ESPN's shot chart is accurate. I thought he was on the elbow, but he was a few steps beyond it. Not quite as good a shot as I thought, but I think if Miller is wide open from that spot he will hit a good percentage.
His shooting this year has been poor though, and I don't think you can look at a percentage and say he's an 18% shooter from there. There's all kinds of different caliber shots. This one was open, a contested one would be considerably more difficult.
Bigway said:
while I can't disagree with the execution of the play
The reality is that Miller hasn't hit that shot at all this season, and he actually seems reluctant if not afraid to take it. Despite being unchallenged he still took a leaning fall away shot.
AirP said:
Miller is 41% for the season, 40% for the game at that point and had just come into the game... so he was cold. It was the perfect setup to miss an open midrange shot.
Understand this... Vinnie drew up a play for our FOURTH OPTION to get the shot. Not Rose, not Deng, not Salmons... Miller. Not only that he puts Deng along the baseline so Rose has NO OPPORTUNITY to drive to the basket.
Let me ask you this... if you're a bucks fan, with the personnel on the court for the Bulls, name the players you'd rather not see shoot the ball. I'd say there are at least 3 names listed before Miller's.
Design the play to give Rose a chance to get to the rim. Let him fail if he's going to fail... HE WILL LEARN FROM IT. Look at how much Noah learned from getting pushed around by the Celtics, he learned he needed to get stronger so guess what... HE DID! Let Rose learn what it takes to finish last second shots in this league, the more he does it, the better he will get, but if you only let him do it every once in a while the dots just won't connect, it'll be looked at as kind of a random miss instead of what can I do to get better.
DEVELOP THE PLAYERS, don't piss away Rose's potential like we did with Tyrus. The only difference with Tyrus and Rose, Rose just goes with it, Tyrus bucks management and there's a backlash... looks like JJ is going the Rose route and just not getting any development time on the court.
The franchise only looks short term instead of building towards the future.
Doug Thonus said:
I don't know that the player
Doug Thonus said:
Whoops hit submit by mistake.
I don't know if the play was designed for Miller, but clearly it was an option on the play. I'm sure Derrick had the option of trying to get the shot off himself.
It's not like the play is drawn up. "Okay Derrick, do this and then after the double team comes and you're completely cut off, Brad Miller will be open here!".
I mean that's a likely outcome of the play, but the play is still a read based on what the defense does. They tried to force Rose into taking the last shot all season long last year, and he didn't hit a single one of them.
I'm not sure why you think Rose isn't being developed. He's playing an assload this year and played an assload last year. It's not the coaching staff's fault if he's not aggressive enough given that they've constantly talked to him about being more aggressive.
Doug Thonus said:
Though I agree they could have run something like an ISO for Rose or a pick and roll with Deng/Rose.
Dmband said:
So you're telling me we lost a close game because we couldnt hit clutch shots? Wierd...its only been that way for the last 5 years.
MrHappy said:
I really don't care if Rose takes the last shot or not. I just want to see him BE AGGRESSIVE for 48 minutes, instead 24 minutes.
Actually, after seeing the highlight of the miss shot by Miller I thought the pass was a good one. Unfortunately, the shot on the spot of the floor would have been better designed for Gibson. He consistently knocks down that jumpshot from just past the elbow. Miller, on the otherhad, likes to shoot straight on just above the FT-line.
As Stacey King would say, "KYP...Know your personnel." VDN should have had Taj Gibson in the game, not Brad Miller.
Doug Thonus said:
I agree with you that Rose should be aggressive for the whole game rather than a half.
I'd probably trust Miller over Taj Gibson on a jumper myself, and I'd trust Miller to set a better pick to free Rose on a pick and roll.
AirP said:
It's not that simple, it's a Miller who had been sitting the bench for a while vs a warm Gibson.
Me personally, I'd rather have let Rose take the last shot, just pulling up and taking the shot.
I guess we can argue about this for a while so let me ask you this... if we ever expect Rose to be a franchise player, when do we start treating him that way? The sooner he starts playing the role of franchise player, the sooner he'll get comfortable in that role and start developing as a franchise player. Right now he's playing like just another guy in the offense, instead of the main guy in the offense. I have a problem with this and the last shot is just another time we could have used to develop him.
Jordan missed MANY last second shots, but they made him into a better player, sometimes you have to fail to understand how to succeed. A player like Rose will pick apart plays to figure out how to succeed, he just isn't put in a position to be the man even though by; far he's the only one on the roster to be that.
Doug Thonus said:
We forced him into that role all last season. He didn't hit a single shot.
I guess I would look at it more like this, there are a million things you need to force Rose to do before worrying about the last second shot.
Force him to draw contact rather than jump away from guys when driving.
Force him to shoot open 3s to keep the defense honest and to get comfortable taking them.
Force him to commit to playing real defense.
The last second shot thing isn't a big instructional moment. He has the ball in those situations all the time. If he passes once instead of shooting I don't consider it a lost opportunity on development.
Jordan passed on many of those plays as well. He even did so in the NBA finals on multiple occasions to great success.
MrHappy said:
As far as the shot goes though, that's not Miller's best spot on the floor. Gibson likes the elbow jumper, while Miller likes the straight on (above the FT-line)jumper. That's all I'm saying.
Dmband said:
I dont know how you could say that we should of had a rookie in the game over a guy who's basically made a career (and a long one at that) of knocking down mid range jumpers...?
It really gets back to the lack of a true leader on this team, who is going to take that shot at the end of the game...as I mentioned above, that has been the case here for a long time..
AirP said:
It's because that Vet was cold, not just because he's coming off the bench, but how long he was on the bench. Player's aren't robots, you have to know the situation of every player, some guys can just walk onto the court cold and hit shots, some can't. Had Miller been on the court for a few up and down the court, fine, I can't argue much, but to come almost straight off the bench, stand around some more for free throws and then expect him to run to a spot, catch the ball and hit the shot... no, it's not a good percentage shot. Taj being somewhat warm was a better option then Miller being cold.
Doug Thonus said:
I do agree that bringing in Miller while cold is dicey.
Vohaul79 said:
It was a good pass to Miller, who is well capable of hitting that shot. However I'd still like to see Rose take the reigns more. Too passive in the first 3/4 of the game per usual. Why he cant come out and dominate all game I cant figure out.
Why Vinny hates Johnson already I also cant figure out, but its obvious. Poorly drawn / obvious plays and not playing people for NON talent reasons make me start to lean on the fire Vinny bandwagon.
Maybe JR needs to publicly scold them again like the "play Rose in the 4th" scandal of last year : )
AirP said:
Why Vinnie hates JJ? It's that Vinnie hates unpredictable players, players who deviate from the offensive set. Pargo, Tyrus, JJ and sometimes Rose deviates from the plays because they have the talent to do that(some much better then others obviously). It's almost like taking the coach out of the play when you do that, but it's TALENT and the ability to make more out of a situation that makes teams win.
If you can get the whole play after the FT is made, Rose could have blown by his man and went one on one with Bogut but Rose slowed down... ROSE SLOWED DOWN ONE OF THE FASTEST COAST TO COAST PLAYERS SLOWED DOWN TO LET THE DEFENSE SET TO RUN A PLAY.
Rose doesn't argue with Vinnie about it, it's not his style, Tyrus does and that's why he gets less minutes then he should.
At the NBA level, I think it's less about X's and O's and more about getting the most out of your roster. This is the part where I think Vinnie is lacking greatly from. Anyone could just watch a few video tapes or look at a couple of books and draw up a decent offense, it takes a real coach to get the most out of his roster though.
Doug Thonus said:
I think almost all coaches hate unpredictableness. They'd rather take a guy who consistently makes the right decision even if he doesn't have the skills/athleticism to produce consistent results rather than the guy who tends to free lance and make bad decisions even if the results are good.
You've seen that with many, many coaches. I always assume part of this is setting up accountability though. If you say "do xyz" and a player doesn't do that, then it's harder to hold respect of everyone else if you continue to play him.
Doug Thonus said:
Not that I'm necessarily advocating this. I think you need to find a way to get guys on the floor who can develop and improve, especially when they're presently productive.
At the same time, I understand that break downs in defense or ignoring the offense can hurt a team a lot as well, and a coach, especially one like Vinny, is coaching for his job every night.
If he doesn't get wins he's gone, so it's not a really easy situation to say "develop the young kids" when you will be unemployed if you don't win while doing so and probably don't believe that's the path to short term success.
RPK said:
What do the fans want Rose to be?
he wasn't as aggressive in the first half because he was trying to facilitate the half court sets and set up his team mates for good shots. I guess fans won't be happy till he's scoring 30+ ppg.
You can't have it both ways. Either you have a high volume scoring like Wade or a facilitator/Scorer like DWilliams.
Doug Thonus said:
People want Rose to force the action all game. He doesn't need to score all game, but when he's a facilitator, he should still be driving and creating double teams and open looks for guys.
They want him to be aggressive all game whether it's creating for himself or others.
At least, that's what this fan wants, I suppose I shouldn't speak for others.
JimmyBulls said:
Rose made a respectable basketball play, even though the best basketball play would've been to pass it to Salmons in the corner. Miller was cold, and not having a good game offensively or defensively. Salmons was in a better scorer’s rhythm, and was wide open in the corner.
If you're looking for Rose to develop that winners killer instinct, seeing Rose drive to pass in a two point game had to be a little disappointing (if not down right annoying). If Rose was driving to take the shot he would've ignored Miller's pick and taken the open lane to the basket.
If the Bulls is down three points, I'm all for giving the ball to Rose and letting him draw and kick. But if they're down two, Rose have to drive to score, or force some type of contact. Billups would be the perfect example of driving to score or force contact if you saw the game against the Nuggets in Chicago.
Doug Thonus said:
I think passing to Salmons would have been a nice choice too. I don't mind going for the win on the road, especially since Salmons was having a nice night.
Supercesto said:
I only see short vision here!. If Rose was like jennings he will go for the win (3 pointer). But no, today Rose is the second coming of Deng. So afraid to failed. Why overtime with a depleted team? Go for the win! I know everybody will say, he doesn't have the range...BS...Don't expected All Star voting if you don't want to be the star. There is no middle ground. I don't know if it is coaching fault or Rose doesn't like to be the hero. Total disapointment. Just hope coach and Rose learn from the experience (of doing nothing).
Doug Thonus said:
I don't see why you'd possibly want Rose to shoot a 3 in that situation.
Aggressively drive to the basket, sure.
Shoot a 3?
Supercesto said:
Yes, shoot the 3. I know at this point it is low percentage, but the team need him to get good at it. Shooting 3 in the gym only will not make it. You need to develop the go to guy skills...Ben missed a lot of last second shots but he started to get real good at it...I know that your are looking at this particular game. I am looking at the big picture.
Newskoolbulls said:
I dont blame Rose one bit, he drew the double team and kicked it out to a wide open Brad Miller. You cant ask for a better last second play like that. The only thing that i am upset about is Roses passiviness in the first half which seems to be going on way to much.
MrHappy said:
So, Derrick Rose's new nickname is MrSexy, I guess.
http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/rose_sexy_091201.html
Dpauley23 said:
I read that Victoria Secret rigged it and Sharp should of won
CN71 said:
Brad makes that shot most of the time...just because he missed it this time doesnt make it a bad decision. Let's just all give thanks that this road trip is over and hope TT and Kirk come back quick.
MrHappy said:
If the Bulls wanted to DUMP SALARY at some point, how about this?
To Bulls: Etan Thomas and Shaun Livington (they also have two 1st Round Picks)
To OKC: Kirk Hinrich
http://www.realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=5305151
I don't think Hinrich would mind playing there with, his old buddy from Kansas, Nick Collison. The Bulls would create more cap space and perhaps pick up some draft picks.
MrHappy said:
Let me clarify.
OKC has two 1st Round Picks (theirs and Phoenix's). So, maybe the Bulls can land 1 or 2 of those picks for Hinrich, along with Thomas and/or Livingston.
It's just a thought.
phillies80-08wschamps said:
THE ONLY ROSE WORTH TALKING ABOUT IS FORMER WORLD CHAMPION PHILLIES PETE ROSE.
phillies80-08wschamps said:
irrevelent bulls, NOW RELEVANT 76ERS AS IVERSON SET 2 MAKE HIS RETURN 76ERS DEBUT AGAINST DENVER!!!!! I GUESS WE ARE IN PLAYOFFS AGAIN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BULLS WILL BE LUCKY 2 MAKE THE 8TH SEED VERY LUCKY, I SEE THE 76ERS THE 5TH SEED!!!!!!!
MrHappy said:
Don't over-react. Thank you.
phillies80-08wschamps said:
THE BULLS NEED 2 TRADE FOR SAMUEL DALEMBERT, ASAP!!!!!!!!
phillies80-08wschamps said:
W.IVERSON COMING 2 76ERS THERE IS STILL ROOM 4 YA BULLS FANS TO JUMP ON THE 76ERS BANDWAGON BETTER HURRY THOUGH SPACE IS LIMITED!!!
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